So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Cpl Kendall]

Given the rate of fire the phasers have been shown to have, you'd be talking about a heck of a lot of torpedoes in order to tie up the phasers system for any prolonged period of time.

It would have been very helpful in the DS9 battles.

Don’t get me wrong, what you're suggesting is possible. But to me it seems highly unlikely that this should become much of a problem in your average engagement.

You don't plan for an average engagement, you plan for the worst.

[Mike DiCenso]

If long range is 500 meters, then yes. Having an omnidirectional blast 200-500 meters away from your ship rather than at the surface of your shield is still infinitely better.
In first case, if the blast is not directed, the shield will take around 50% of the radiations and all the jazz. At a range of a few hundred meters, the ship's profile will be considerably smaller.

Either they can't track fast moving torps, can't lock on the shields or something because of jamming, or there's just some convenient technobabble at play there.

I'am sure that it would be helpful, but given what we've discussed before about a full-yeild, full-spread of photon torpedoes being enough at a couple kilometers to knock out standard shields (as oer TNG's "The Nth Degree"), then having even one or two torpedoes explodes full force at a few hundred meters is still not a good thing. You want to hit the torpedoes as far away as possible, preferably several km or several tens of km to prevent potentially catastropic damage.

This becomes especially important when your shields are heavily damaged or are completely gone as torpedo dedonations can still potentially cause signficant damage as per TNG's "Q Who?".
-Mike

[l33telboi]

It would have been very helpful in the DS9 battles.

You know it would help if you complete your thoughts instead of just throwing out random one-liners. That way I won't have to guess as to what exactly your argument is.

But I'm assuming you mean it would've helped to fire many weak beams instead of just a few strong ones in the larger DS9 battles? Surely you realize that that's like saying you should mount a hundred machineguns on a tank instead of a main cannon.

You don't plan for an average engagement, you plan for the worst.

No, you plan with cost-effectiveness in mind. A vehicle should carry as much weaponry as is realistically expected of it to use. Anything else would be a waste of resources.

In this case the Enterprise wouldn't need more phasers arrays because it’s already got more then enough to meet whatever demands might be placed on it when it comes to the number of weapons emplacements in use.

Your argument is akin to me saying that the Hamina-class missileboats should carry twenty more 12.7mm machineguns, just in case it suddenly gets stormed by an unnaturaly large number of speedy and small-sized vessels.

[Mr. Oragahn]

If long range is 500 meters, then yes. Having an omnidirectional blast 200-500 meters away from your ship rather than at the surface of your shield is still infinitely better.
In first case, if the blast is not directed, the shield will take around 50% of the radiations and all the jazz. At a range of a few hundred meters, the ship's profile will be considerably smaller.

Either they can't track fast moving torps, can't lock on the shields or something because of jamming, or there's just some convenient technobabble at play there.

I'am sure that it would be helpful, but given what we've discussed before about a full-yeild, full-spread of photon torpedoes being enough at a couple kilometers to knock out standard shields (as oer TNG's "The Nth Degree"), then having even one or two torpedoes explodes full force at a few hundred meters is still not a good thing.

Sure, but it's still better than nothing.
Besides, it has the advantage to prevent the charge, if it's focused, to actually divert its energy towards the targets. Destroying a torp will either generate an omnidirectional explosion, or one where certain ejections are more powerful, but could be pointing in any direction, not necessarily towards the target.
Of course, if it can be shot down farther than that, all the better.

Still, it doesn't explain why it's so rarely done despite the obvious advantages.

[Mr. Oragahn]

• If we assume, that photon torpedos have shields,
  • and in consideration of the fact, that torpedos are able to fly into a sun (TNG: Half a Life or Star Trek Generations) or are able to penetrate through the surface of a planet (TNG: Pen Pals) and their glowing after they are fired (Regarding Photon Torpedo Glow), a not unreasonable assumption,
  it is to conclude, that, because of these shields, a photon torpedo is not that easily destroyed by enemy weapons fire.
  
  • • • • To shoot down an own torpedo - and only that was shown in Star Trek - one has only to know the shield frequency of the own torpedos or to order the torpedo remotely to drop the shields.
  One could assume, that a photon torpedo has a shield generator, that is capable to generate a very strong shield around the relativ small torpedo for the short time, a torpedo is usually flying to its target. Even if a point defense system or the main weapons would be able to overcome the torpedo shields in the short time, the torpedo need to reach its target, the torpedo would be already so near, that the photonic shock wave would maybe be worse than an impact in the shields of the ship.
  
  • • • • Why however a torpedo, that is hit with a phaser, is supposed to explode more powerful than as if it would explode regular, is curious. But that was the impression, I have got from the Voyager episode Workforce. Kim has said, that he can't penetrate the shields of the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships and only then has the Emergency Command Hologram got the idea to emulate the tactic, the Romulan captain has used at the battle of Vorkado, by creating a photonic shock wave between the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships to disable them. To fire directly at the ships has failed to disable them, but the photonic shock wave was enough to do it. Either it is more powerful than a regular photon torpedo explosion or the photonic shock wave has another unknown, but more disastrous effect to the ship systems.

What's so special about the photonic shockwave? I just see a tactic that is about hitting two ships with only one torpedo, by manually destroying the torpedo, instead of, for example, prematurely detonating it, a system which could have been absent of that torp back then.
The phaser's own energy is probably going to boost the explosion a tad, and that's about it. Used in a cluster of ships with moderate protection, it can be a great tactic.

Besides, if there was a significant gain, it would be a great tactic for medium to long range assaults. Fire torps, and then fire the phaser when the torps are close to the target. Considering that you know how your torps are going to fly, it's not hard to hit, while the defender will have more problems.
Photonic shockwave spam would be a very recurrent tactic if there was any special gain in effect or yield.

[2046]

from "Workforce, Pt. II":

KIM: I can't penetrate their shields.
EMH: Maybe we don't have to. The battle of Vorkado, it's in my tactical database. A Romulan Captain disabled two attacking vessels by creating a photonic shock wave between the ships.
KIM: How'd he do that?
EMH: Watch and learn.

And that's pretty much all we know.

The photonic shockwave seems to do something more than a normal photon torpedo detonation, as indicated by both the plot and the special effects. Otherwise you'd simply detonate a torpedo, rather than do the whole phaser thing to it. And, of course, otherwise Harry wouldn't have had need to explain that he couldn't penetrate their shields. A direct torpedo hit would've done the job better than popping one between them.

(It may even require that two ships be present for the full effect to occur, though this is unclear. It may be something one could do all the time, but the two-ship thing was the reminder for 'Captain Doc'.)

My initial thought was that this retroactively explained Spock's "too late" when a Reliant torpedo was coming in in Star Trek II. Without this, it appears that they thought of shooting at the torpedo, but there simply wasn't the opportunity. With this, the fact that phaser fire could cause a torpedo to get all 'blowed up real good' would be a reason to avoid firing at it if it was too close . . . better to take the hit.

[Cpl Kendall]

[

You know it would help if you complete your thoughts instead of just throwing out random one-liners. That way I won't have to guess as to what exactly your argument is.

Your free to ignore my points if you don't like my style.

But I'm assuming you mean it would've helped to fire many weak beams instead of just a few strong ones in the larger DS9 battles? Surely you realize that that's like saying you should mount a hundred machineguns on a tank instead of a main cannon.

No. I'm saying a space-CIWS would have been useful to down all the torpedoes flying around.

No, you plan with cost-effectiveness in mind. A vehicle should carry as much weaponry as is realistically expected of it to use. Anything else would be a waste of resources.

We've seen where playing the cost-effective angle has gotten real militaries *cough*Falklands*cough*.

In this case the Enterprise wouldn't need more phasers arrays because it’s already got more then enough to meet whatever demands might be placed on it when it comes to the number of weapons emplacements in use.

The various ships downed in DS9 would seem to disagree with you.

Your argument is akin to me saying that the Hamina-class missileboats should carry twenty more 12.7mm machineguns, just in case it suddenly gets stormed by an unnaturaly large number of speedy and small-sized vessels.

Uh ok, they operate in packs so it's not a critical requirement to have a bunch of MG's on the hull. And the crew has small arms. Actual warships do have MG's scattered around the hull.

[Kane Starkiller]

Federation weapon sensors and tracking seems to be really poor. Take a look at Nemesis. Today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back. This would make Scimitars fancy cloak useless. Instead they were forced to rely on Troi's mind games.

[l33telboi]

No. I'm saying a space-CIWS would have been useful to down all the torpedoes flying around.

As far as I can recall, there weren't an exceptionally large number of torps in those fights. Not so many that they'd completely tie up the main phasers if they'd use them as point-defence.

Feel free to post pics of these torpedo swarms if you want though.

We've seen where playing the cost-effective angle has gotten real militaries *cough*Falklands*cough*.

'The cost-effective angle'? Sounds almost as if you're implying that being cost-effective can somehow be a bad thing. In fact, if I didn't know better, then I'd say that you're failing to realize what the effective part in cost-effective means.

And its gotten militaries exactly where they are today. A place where people realize that mounting too many guns on one platform serves no real purpose but to exhaust resources.

The various ships downed in DS9 would seem to disagree with you.

You are aware that you're right now suggesting that an average of some 5-10 torpedoes were fired at each and everyone of the Federation ships, per second, are you not?

Personally I didn't see that during the fighting, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Uh ok, they operate in packs so it's not a critical requirement to have a bunch of MG's on the hull.

That's just a mess of contradictions and double standards you created there.

First off, Haminas don't need many MGs because they can operate in packs? But Federation ships do need many CIWS systems, even though they also operate in packs? Heck, the examples you just cited have them operating in fleets.

See the problem there? See the double-standard?

And the crew has small arms.

Yeah, so does the crew on the UFP ships. But they're kinda useless as PD systems.

Actual warships do have MG's scattered around the hull.

And UFP ships have phasers scattered around the hull.

Ships have the number of weapons that are deemed necessary. No more, no less. You could take pretty much any vessel and ask "Why don't you slap x more MGs onto the hull?"

The answer is, "Because it's just not needed."

And please don't compare a 12.7mm MG to that of normal rifles.

[Cpl Kendall]

*snip*

Do you understand the difference between a CIWS and an MG?

[Praeothmin]

Take a look at Nemesis. Today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.

Well, perhaps the Scimitar was jamming the E-E's sensors.
They mention jamming in Trek often enough for us to think it can be part of their normal mode of operation...

[Kane Starkiller]

'The cost-effective angle'? Sounds almost as if you're implying that being cost-effective can somehow be a bad thing. In fact, if I didn't know better, then I'd say that you're failing to realize what the effective part in cost-effective means.

Well the effective part would be that they don't get blown up by torpedoes right? Because they are pretty ineffective as floating debris. You just lost the ship and entire carefully trained crew. When you already have a warp ship with phasers and photon torpedoes, trained crew, power reactor, sensor equipment and computer system how much extra cost can there be in adding several point defense guns? Certainly an insignificant percentage of the overall ship cost. And shooting down even 2-3 photon torpedoes would reduce much heat from the shields and give the ship much better odds in combat.

Well, perhaps the Scimitar was jamming the E-E's sensors.
They mention jamming in Trek often enough for us to think it can be part of their normal mode of operation...

Well seeing as how they always inform the captain about the jamming it obviously isn't just assumed. Yet they didn't mention anything about jamming even when discussing Scimitar's cloaking device and ways to find them. In fact Geordi makes a specific point that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.
Besides at that range Scimitar would have to basically emit some kind of blinding bright light towards the Enterprise for it to miss the disruptor bolts.

[Who is like God arbour]

• If we assume, that photon torpedos have shields,
  • and in consideration of the fact, that torpedos are able to fly into a sun (TNG: Half a Life or Star Trek Generations) or are able to penetrate through the surface of a planet (TNG: Pen Pals) and their glowing after they are fired (Regarding Photon Torpedo Glow), a not unreasonable assumption,
  it is to conclude, that, because of these shields, a photon torpedo is not that easily destroyed by enemy weapons fire.
  
  • • • • To shoot down an own torpedo - and only that was shown in Star Trek - one has only to know the shield frequency of the own torpedos or to order the torpedo remotely to drop the shields.
  One could assume, that a photon torpedo has a shield generator, that is capable to generate a very strong shield around the relativ small torpedo for the short time, a torpedo is usually flying to its target. Even if a point defense system or the main weapons would be able to overcome the torpedo shields in the short time, the torpedo need to reach its target, the torpedo would be already so near, that the photonic shock wave would maybe be worse than an impact in the shields of the ship.
  
  • • • • Why however a torpedo, that is hit with a phaser, is supposed to explode more powerful than as if it would explode regular, is curious. But that was the impression, I have got from the Voyager episode Workforce. Kim has said, that he can't penetrate the shields of the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships and only then has the Emergency Command Hologram got the idea to emulate the tactic, the Romulan captain has used at the battle of Vorkado, by creating a photonic shock wave between the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships to disable them. To fire directly at the ships has failed to disable them, but the photonic shock wave was enough to do it. Either it is more powerful than a regular photon torpedo explosion or the photonic shock wave has another unknown, but more disastrous effect to the ship systems.

What's so special about the photonic shockwave? I just see a tactic that is about hitting two ships with only one torpedo, by manually destroying the torpedo, instead of, for example, prematurely detonating it, a system which could have been absent of that torp back then.
The phaser's own energy is probably going to boost the explosion a tad, and that's about it. Used in a cluster of ships with moderate protection, it can be a great tactic.

Besides, if there was a significant gain, it would be a great tactic for medium to long range assaults. Fire torps, and then fire the phaser when the torps are close to the target. Considering that you know how your torps are going to fly, it's not hard to hit, while the defender will have more problems.
Photonic shockwave spam would be a very recurrent tactic if there was any special gain in effect or yield.

2046 has already answered your question:

• • • • from "Workforce, Pt. II":
        

        KIM: I can't penetrate their shields.
        EMH: Maybe we don't have to. The battle of Vorkado, it's in my tactical database. A Romulan Captain disabled two attacking vessels by creating a photonic shock wave between the ships.
        KIM: How'd he do that?
        EMH: Watch and learn.

        
        
        And that's pretty much all we know.
        
        The photonic shockwave seems to do something more than a normal photon torpedo detonation, as indicated by both the plot and the special effects. Otherwise you'd simply detonate a torpedo, rather than do the whole phaser thing to it. And, of course, otherwise Harry wouldn't have had need to explain that he couldn't penetrate their shields. A direct torpedo hit would've done the job better than popping one between them.
        
        (It may even require that two ships be present for the full effect to occur, though this is unclear. It may be something one could do all the time, but the two-ship thing was the reminder for 'Captain Doc'.)
        
        My initial thought was that this retroactively explained Spock's "too late" when a Reliant torpedo was coming in in Star Trek II. Without this, it appears that they thought of shooting at the torpedo, but there simply wasn't the opportunity. With this, the fact that phaser fire could cause a torpedo to get all 'blowed up real good' would be a reason to avoid firing at it if it was too close . . . better to take the hit.

It is as I have said: the plot indicates strongly, that the photonic shockwave has a more disastrous effect to the ship systems to be able to disable a ship, where direct hits are not even able to penetrate the shields. Why that is the case, is the real question. Only the added phaser energy shouldn't make such a difference.

And again, the question, if it is possible to shoot down an enemy, by shields protected torpedo at all, still stands. A CIWS could be useless because the weak weapon wouldn't be able to overcome the torpedo shields, if the main weapons wouldn't even be able to do it. That's a problem, that already is there today. CIWS guns have a limited kill probability: Even if the missile is hit and damaged, it may not be enough to destroy it or change its course enough, to prevent it or fragments of it from hitting its intended target [1].

Federation weapon sensors and tracking seems to be really poor. Take a look at Nemesis. Today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back. This would make Scimitars fancy cloak useless. Instead they were forced to rely on Troi's mind games.

I'm sure, you are able to prove that claim. I haven't heard of a system, that is able to detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin.

But even if it is possible, do you really think, that the Scimitar would fire, while flying a predictable course, so that the Enterprise could aim ahead?

You have to consider, that the distances and velocities in space are greater than on earth and that Star Trek ships are far more agile than Star Wars ships. And that a phaser needs a few moments to reach its target. Add a few moments for the sensor to pick up the emission, for the computer to analyze it and calculate the position and course of the Scimitar, for the weapons to aim and you will get a delay that is big enough, that, if a phaser beam reach the position, where the Scimitar was supposed to be, she has already changed her course and is somewhere else.

• • By the way, your suggestion is similar to what Picard has ordered:
    
    • • INT. ENTERPRISE BRIDGE. FOLLOWING.
        
        • • • PICARD:
            Worf, prepare a full phaser spread, zero elevation. All banks on my mark. Scan for shield impacts and stand by photon torpedoes.
          • • WORF:
            Aye, sir
          • • The ship ROCKS again.
          • • PICARD:
            Fire!
        EXT. THE RIFT. SPACE.
        
        • • • The Enterprise fires her phasers simultaneously -- the energy beams shoot into space. And the Scimitar's shape is momentarily illuminated as one of its shields is hit. Photon torpedoes immediately shoot from the Enterprise -- but pass harmlessly through the area where the Scimitar's shields were momentarily illuminated.
        INT. SCIMITAR. BRIDGE. FOLLOWING.
        
        • • • SHINZON:
            You're too slow, old man.
            • (Entering commands in his chair console)
            Attack pattern Shinzon Theta.
    That corresponds with what was shown in the movie. It is not possible, to react significant faster as it was shown and nevertheless, it was not enough: The Scimitar was already somewhere else and not where it was, as the first phaser fire has impacted in the shields.

Well, perhaps the Scimitar was jamming the E-E's sensors.
They mention jamming in Trek often enough for us to think it can be part of their normal mode of operation...

I'm not an expert for jamming, but if the Scimitar was jamming the sensors of the Enterprise, the Enterprise should have been able to pick up at least the jamming signal and locate its source.

Well, perhaps the Scimitar was jamming the E-E's sensors.
They mention jamming in Trek often enough for us to think it can be part of their normal mode of operation...

Well seeing as how they always inform the captain about the jamming it obviously isn't just assumed. Yet they didn't mention anything about jamming even when discussing Scimitar's cloaking device and ways to find them. In fact Geordi makes a specific point that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.
Besides at that range Scimitar would have to basically emit some kind of blinding bright light towards the Enterprise for it to miss the disruptor bolts.

Apart from my own objection, that reasoning is faulty:

1. You don't know, if they have informed him off-screen in that movie or in other episodes, where a jamming wasn't mentioned on-screen.
2. But if they would jamm the sensors of the Enterprise during the battle, that doesn't mean, that they have already jammed her sensors in Orbit of Romulus, when Geordi has said, that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.
3. Even the third objection assumes passiv optical sensors (or cameras), though we know, that the Enterprise has sensors that don't work like cameras. To jamm them, a (visible) blinding bright light would be useless. We don't know, if she has, beside these sensors, cameras on which they could have fallen back, if their sophisticated sensor system is jammed (with for the human eyes invisible signals).

[l33telboi]

Do you understand the difference between a CIWS and an MG?

If you find that you can't/won't answer the questions in my post, feel free to just say so instead of throwing out a meaningless question to which I can reply with a simple "yes".

[l33telboi]

Well the effective part would be that they don't get blown up by torpedoes right? Because they are pretty ineffective as floating debris. You just lost the ship and entire carefully trained crew. When you already have a warp ship with phasers and photon torpedoes, trained crew, power reactor, sensor equipment and computer system how much extra cost can there be in adding several point defense guns? Certainly an insignificant percentage of the overall ship cost. And shooting down even 2-3 photon torpedoes would reduce much heat from the shields and give the ship much better odds in combat.

Yes, that would be very effective. Execept that you're taking the notion that phasers shoot down torpedoes as fact, which, if you've noticed, is exactly what I'm disputing.

If slapping on a few extra phaser-banks would actually help in dealing with torps, then yes, of course you should do so. Unfortunatly every piece of evidence we have says that they won't help with it. Everything we know says that they'll be useless.

Because the Sovereign already has, what, a few dozen phaser emplacements scattered across the hull. And yet in combat, they don't use them to shoot down torpedoes. Why? I don't know, they have the accuracy and they have the rate of fire to do it, but they won't. Either the shields on the torps are such that disabling them before they hit is hopeless, or then there really is something akin to the shock-combo (from Unreal) going on there.

Bottom line is, slapping on more phaser strips would be useless, because the Sovereign already has enough phaser arrays to deal with some 5-10 torpedoes per second. If indeed it did try to shoot down them.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but in this post you've actually admitted that phasers are capable of shooting down torps. Because otherwise adding more phasers wouldn't help and thus your argument wouldn't make sense. But something tells me that if I were to ask the question staright up, "Can the Sovereign shoot down incoming torps", you'd say "No."

So how about it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.