Political Compass?

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Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:59 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:I'm an atheist or at least the closest thing you can be without blindly denying the possibility of the existence of a creator (because I don't believe blind and absolute denial is scientific or healthy) and i absolutely hate most of my fellow Atheists who are nothing but loud mouth opinionated pseudo intellectuals with too little actual real world experience or intelligence..and too much self importance

I have no problem with Southern Christians defending themselves and fighting Atheist groups because of those active are full of idiotic fuck faced clowns who can't even see a deeper meaning..in a damn holiday and who's opinions are a little too full of "I, I , Me, Me"
While i share your distaste for certain types of Atheists i have nothing but disgust for many in the Christian movement in regards to their willful attempts to promote ignorance and lies about science and in particular Evolution. The effect it has had to society, education and especially the young in the bible belt and other areas in its willfully dishonest attempts to discredit science and scientific methods is a disgrace.

Teaching abstinence instead of the more effective and proven sex education leading to i think Texas having the highest repeat teen pregnancies in America.

And apparently the guy in charge of Texas at least stated that it is beyond him to fix it and decided getting people together for a prayer and magic incantations would fix it.

I have been discussing this elsewhere and was shocked to see just how far some will go to deceive and was horrified at the statistical evidence of the effect it has caused.

Admittedly i am atheist and have been all my life and i am also a anti-theist and Secularist so i tried to look at things from a fair and unbiased position as possible (i cannot claim total success as that is impossible but i honestly tried) but even trying to see things from the other side i was appalled at how far many were knowingly willing to go.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:54 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
While i share your distaste for certain types of Atheists i have nothing but disgust for many in the Christian movement in regards to their willful attempts to promote ignorance and lies about science and in particular Evolution. The effect it has had to society, education and especially the young in the bible belt and other areas in its willfully dishonest attempts to discredit science and scientific methods is a disgrace.

Teaching abstinence instead of the more effective and proven sex education leading to i think Texas having the highest repeat teen pregnancies in America.

And apparently the guy in charge of Texas at least stated that it is beyond him to fix it and decided getting people together for a prayer and magic incantations would fix it.

I have been discussing this elsewhere and was shocked to see just how far some will go to deceive and was horrified at the statistical evidence of the effect it has caused.

Admittedly i am atheist and have been all my life and i am also a anti-theist and Secularist so i tried to look at things from a fair and unbiased position as possible (i cannot claim total success as that is impossible but i honestly tried) but even trying to see things from the other side i was appalled at how far many were knowingly willing to go.
Nowhere did I said that the other side is innocent of atrocious and morally deplorable or dangerously irresponsible. you are absolutely 100& right in that regard in many cases I'd be on your side in a debate...however I don't feel the need to compulsively "call out both sides" as is seemingly the common trend nowadays

my issue was with SWST claiming that in that case Christians were the only bad guys when in most cases it's usually a fight of "stupid vs even more stupid"

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Picard » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:12 am

While i share your distaste for certain types of Atheists i have nothing but disgust for many in the Christian movement in regards to their willful attempts to promote ignorance and lies about science and in particular Evolution. The effect it has had to society, education and especially the young in the bible belt and other areas in its willfully dishonest attempts to discredit science and scientific methods is a disgrace.
Do they have any arguments?

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:24 pm

Picard wrote:
While i share your distaste for certain types of Atheists i have nothing but disgust for many in the Christian movement in regards to their willful attempts to promote ignorance and lies about science and in particular Evolution. The effect it has had to society, education and especially the young in the bible belt and other areas in its willfully dishonest attempts to discredit science and scientific methods is a disgrace.
Do they have any arguments?
None that have not been thoroughly destroyed over the years although they continue to try through some very deceitful means.

Most of the more ignorant creationists call the "theory of Evolution" by the name of "Darwinism" and honestly think that it makes claim that we came about by random chance and require to see monkeys give birth to men or visa-versa as evidence as well as even greater idiocy. They claim it cannot explain the origin of life not realizing that it does not try to in the first place and that it cannot explain what was before the big bang again not realizing that Evolution explains the diversity of life and does not address Cosmology. But as most of the more fanatical believe the universe is around 10,000 years old as per a literal interpretation of the bible it is understandable that their attacks would cover all scientific facts that prove such absurdity wrong its just a shame their ignorance extends to by doing so calling all science "Darwinism"...lol.

Obviously some of this is just base ignorance of what Evolution does explain perfectly but it is promoted by snake oil type evangelists WHO DO KNOW BETTER but lie to their flocks while accepting literally millions to tens of millions a year in donations from the ignorant masses who believe them.

Some of these like Ray Comfort (known as the banana man for a retarded vid he made about a modern banana proving Gods existence):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfucpGCm5hY

Before you finish laughing understand that this guy has made millions preaching stupidity like that along with his buddy Kirk Cameron who tells people Evolution should produce a "Crockaduck" (see him holding the image of what he thinks will prove evolution below) to prove it is a accurate scientific method.

Image

Also you have a even greater conman called Kent Hovind who is at the moment doing 10 years in prison for fraud and tax evasion, il not go into some of his idiocy and lunacy as there is just so much of it but by all means check out his claims on youtube as you will be amazed.

Those types of conmen play on the really ignorant but others are far more dangerous as they attack the very foundations of science and education in the USA and try to pervert it.

One of the more well known was a attempt to down play Evolution while promoting Christianities creationism in the guise of "Intelligent Design" in the Dover Area School District science classrooms.

This came to a head in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District Federal court case that saw ID thoroughly trounced on literally EVERY level and the dishonesty of those promoting it exposed even to the point that the Federal judge himself pointed out several cases of perjury.

Horizon did a documentary on it:

http://videosift.com/video/Horizon-A-Wa ... ary-49mins

This is also a exceptional presentation by a witness in the trial detailing some of the issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by sonofccn » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:15 pm

In truth I've never understood why so much energy has been devoted by both sides trying to prove the other are totally wrong and likely pure evil. To me it seems academic, if you believe in evolution or don't believe in evolution it doesn't realy effect your day to day life.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:03 pm

sonofccn wrote:In truth I've never understood why so much energy has been devoted by both sides trying to prove the other are totally wrong and likely pure evil. To me it seems academic, if you believe in evolution or don't believe in evolution it doesn't really effect your day to day life.
On a individual level for a person who has examined the material on both sides it is not a issue as a individual can believe against all the evidence that 2 + 2 = 5 if they wished to and society would go on quite happily.

On a national level where they dishonesty try to avoid the scientific method of peer review and honest open testing of the facts and attempt to slip flawed material into the science classroom BECAUSE its arguments cannot hold up to scrutiny it is a direct threat to truth and knowledge and scientific discovery.

To be that dishonest for the utterly political reason of promoting a single religion to the vulnerable minds of children so they grow up to support a certain view point is not only disgraceful but dangerous as shown in regards to EVERY historical and contemporary example of human right atrocities from Theocracies towards those who do not share that view.

Considering how much mankind relies on truth and knowledge and scientific discovery for its very survival in regards to developing better ways of feeding the masses, curing diseases and looking into alternate fuels and solutions to problems in the future. When they attack science in general and its methods through one of the most supported theories in science (Evolution) to promote a superstition they becomes a direct threat to humanities progress and survival.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:22 pm

Kirk Cameron needs to shut the hell up and stop making his own religion look even worse and born again Christians tend to be pretty scary as it is any way
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: to promote a superstition they becomes a direct threat to humanities progress and survival.
as far as I know these people only want to disprove the theory of evolution in many cases these same people condemn faith healers and the like

and notice how it's been one of the most openly Christian presidents we've ever had and one of the biggest mouth pieces on the "war against religion" in the current race..that were the ones who took our space project seriously?

As far as I know only Bush and Gringirch wanna colonize space..

it seems to me that the rest of the sciences are beneath their capacity to care about only the biology side for evolution and even then..aside from a moral heat for Stem Cells they seem to only care about the origin of the species bit

does it make them not all that bright? Perhaps..does it make the vast majority of them a threat to the species? Naw not overmuch I'm more threatened by the minority of Christians and Muslims who want to return to a "simpler" time..and people conducting AI research (I consider the three groups just as evil) then I do the majority of mouth piece intelligent designtards who are only interested in beefing against the theory of evolution

mind you that in and of itself is annoying

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:52 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:
as far as I know these people only want to disprove the theory of evolution in many cases these same people condemn faith healers and the like
Evolution is one of the most proven theories in science with so much material supporting it at this point at best it would only be adjusted, so even if a bit of evidence did come up that did not fit perfectly like every other bit has those with the evidence would still need another theory that is virtually identical that took into account all the facts already known.

it seems to me that the rest of the sciences are beneath their capacity to care about only the biology side for evolution and even then..aside from a moral heat for Stem Cells they seem to only care about the origin of the species bit
They only care about Evolution because it proves a literal interpretation of the bible wrong and to many even now it offends many ignorant people because it proves we have a common ancestor with the great apes, hell it proves we are apes in the strictest definition of the word. So by using their idiotic versions of Evolution as the poster child they can drum up support from the ignorant masses and try to shoehorn in religious superstition as a science by saying "teach the controversy" when there is no scientific controversy.

Or as exampled in Kansas they even went as far as to RE-WRITE the very definition of science itself so it could include the supernatural.
does it make them not all that bright? Perhaps..does it make the vast majority of them a threat to the species? Naw not overmuch I'm more threatened by the minority of Christians and Muslims who want to return to a "simpler" time..and people conducting AI research (I consider the three groups just as evil) then I do the majority of mouth piece intelligent designtards who are only interested in beefing against the theory of evolution
Oh i accept many are not about to go dropping bombs over it but the moment they threaten science and education because of their silly bronze and iron age superstition they directly threaten the very things that prop up our civilization, allow it to continue and give it the ability to deal with future problems.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by sonofccn » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:08 pm

@Kor_Dahar_Master

I apologize because you seem perfectly reasonable and no matter what I do this is going to sound mean. So please I am sorry but I think you are being overly dramatic. Humanity survived for the greater breadth of its history without Darwin's Origin of Species and had it not been penned would have continued largely unchanged. Its a good theory mind you, one I was taught and raised to believe in, but ignorance of it or rejection of it doesn't prevent you from mastering math or the sciences. In the grand scheme of things it's a trivial ground to make a divide on.

As well to society as a whole I believe in the free market place of ideas, winner take all. In which case, no matter how you slice it, in America at least the otherside won.

Now as I said I don't see the really point of the fuss, an arragont debacle where each side attempts to out do the other in stupid, spiteful or bullheaded behavior, and I think we have far larger issues to deal with. However the end of it is if it comes down to a straight up and down push they will likely win.

Again my apologizes.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:46 pm

sonofccn wrote:@Kor_Dahar_Master

I apologize because you seem perfectly reasonable and no matter what I do this is going to sound mean. So please I am sorry but I think you are being overly dramatic. Humanity survived for the greater breadth of its history without Darwin's Origin of Species and had it not been penned would have continued largely unchanged. Its a good theory mind you, one I was taught and raised to believe in, but ignorance of it or rejection of it doesn't prevent you from mastering math or the sciences. In the grand scheme of things it's a trivial ground to make a divide on.
I do not consider what you said as mean although it does seem a bit naive under the circumstances.

Firstly Darwin's origin of the species is the foundation of Evolutionary Theory but by todays standards while accurate it is a tiny fraction of the facts and material Evolution Theory contains.

Secondly Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology and many of the things we take for granted have been aided because we understand not only that ALL organisms are related but by understanding HOW they are related we can also unite the disciplines and apply research gained in one area of biology to help a completely different area.

Then if you like we can look from a purely socioeconomic perspective you could take a look at the % of people per country accepting Evolution and then the crime rates, murder rates things like that for those countries and they are typically extremely well correlated for the better:

Image

So the benefits of Evolution are not only vast as they include all of biology but clear and tangible to a society.
As well to society as a whole I believe in the free market place of ideas, winner take all. In which case, no matter how you slice it, in America at least the other-side won.
Actually the other-side (if you mean creationists) got kicked out of the science classroom when they tried to sneak in, got booted of the school board when they tried to redefine science to include the supernatural and called liars by a federal judge.

Imagine if they had won and redefined science so alchemy theory was put in the chemistry class, magic theory in the physics class, Fronology taught with neurology, etc etc (and yes one proponent suggested exactly that while on the stand and more as they were all included in the new definition of science).

Anyway while those graphs are upsetting in regards to the level of ignorance they show they could be worse and at lest those who get a good education are in the majority in regards to accepting the truth over superstition.
Now as I said I don't see the really point of the fuss, an arrogant debacle where each side attempts to out do the other in stupid, spiteful or bullheaded behavior, and I think we have far larger issues to deal with. However the end of it is if it comes down to a straight up and down push they will likely win.
Given the socioeconomic benefits along with the biological ones id say its worth arguing for and the ruling from the Federal court is also a ray of light.
Again my apologizes.
Meh im not insulted as you invariably have good points even if i disagree with them.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by sonofccn » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:15 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Firstly Darwin's origin of the species is the foundation of Evolutionary Theory but by todays standards while accurate it is a tiny fraction of the facts and material Evolution Theory contains.
Granted but I wasn't trying to make an argument against the theory. Just that man survived a very long time without it creating the underpinnings of civilization which allowed Darwin to notice how animals were adapted to their enviroment.
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Secondly Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology and many of the things we take for granted have been aided because we understand not only that ALL organisms are related but by understanding HOW they are related we can also unite the disciplines and apply research gained i one area of biology to help a completely different area.
Not being a biologist such things are far above my pay grade but out of curiosity what exactly are we talking about? If you don't mind.
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:From a purely social/economic perspective you could take a look at the % of people per country accepting Evolution and then the crime rates, murder rates things like that for those countries and they are typically extremely well correlated for the better:

Well here lists the UK total crimes at just a little over half of the US's with IIRC 1/5 of the population.

However there are too many factors that would have to be accounted and controlled for to compare country to country I think to make such comparisons meaningful.

Actually the other-side (if you mean creationists) got kicked out of the science classroom when they tried to sneak in, got booted of the school board when they tried to redefine science to include the supernatural and called liars by a federal judge.
You misunderstand. I am talking about the market place of ideas which by all accounts Evolution hasn't sold well. 36 percent are indiffernt/undecided to the theroy and 25% flat out don't believe in it according to the Poll I linked too. Looking around they also had this which breaks it down to Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent design with Evolution getting 16 percent.
Imagine if they had won and redefined science and alchemy theory was put in the chemistry class, magic theory in the physics class etc etc (and yes one proponent suggested exactly that while on the stand and more as they were all included in the new definition of science).
If they enacted such the academic ability would obviously worsen and such errors would self correct. In the end through I feel it should be a comunity's choice to determin their local curriculum.
Anyway while those graphs are upsetting in regards to the level of ignorance they show they could be worse and at lest those who get a good education are in the majority in regards to accepting the truth over superstition.
I disagree. That trends will change or that a top down institution is the manner in which to win people over. To go back to the market place analogy its akin to forcing people to buy your product, I see it more sowing resentment then anything else.
Meh im not insulted as you invariably have good points even if i disagree with them.
Yeah well I can come off as a grouche. And I thank you for your patience.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:17 pm

sonofccn wrote: Granted but I wasn't trying to make an argument against the theory. Just that man survived a very long time without it creating the underpinnings of civilization which allowed Darwin to notice how animals were adapted to their environment.
While that is true it is simplistic as its like saying we did ok before we new about the theory of gravity or atomic theory or other basic science theories, yes in the days they were first hypothesized about they were not overly important.

But today those basic principals and the investigation of them gaining more and more knowledge are part of our social and economic infrastructure from power-generation to curing diseases and illnesses and even engineering principals are all based on scientific theories that were started centuries ago and at that time were not important to society.
Not being a biologist such things are far above my pay grade but out of curiosity what exactly are we talking about? If you don't mind.
Its understandable as most people see evolution as people digging up old fossils etc and do not realize it is a vast science that includes chemistry and unifies all of biology and by doing so saves lives in ways they do not begin to imagine.

Quite literally all biological research a lot of areas of chemical research and even engineering benefit from the study of evolution, the mapping and understanding of the genome in humans and other animals that gives us access to the building blocks of life have benefited medicine in many ways.

Evolution in agriculture helps us improve crops, understand how to modify them to produce more and or survive in harsh conditions and how to understand and deal with the fact that insects evolve to resist pesticides.

Evolution in conservation knowing how biodiversity works for examples helps us recover or prevent things like fishing stocks from being depleted and help us speed up their recovery.

Evolution in medicine is obviously huge as we know diseases evolve and become immune to treatment so knowing how they do this and knowing how to make cures or treatment that evolve is a vast benefit, obviously knowing exactly how a lifeform is built down to the base chemicals also helps immeasurably in dealing with genetic diseases or anomalies.

Using a evolutionary natural selection modal to find the optimum design in engineering projects quickly and efficiently has been going on for decades.

3:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BQhW4tx ... re=related


Ok the list is huge and i cannot post it all but some more are covered here superbly with examples if you feel like reading them and i highly recommend it as its a huge eye opener:

http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/bull.html

The field of study is vast and virtually endless as stuff is being developed and studied as we speak and it all hatched from that small seed that Darwin first planted.

Here are more links the one above is on it as well:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... opic_id=47


You misunderstand. I am talking about the market place of ideas which by all accounts Evolution hasn't sold well. 36 percent are indiffernt/undecided to the theroy and 25% flat out don't believe in it according to the Poll I linked too. Looking around they also had this which breaks it down to Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent design with Evolution getting 16 percent.
According to the graph Evolution has doubled, creationism has dropped and ID has not moved. It could do with a bit better promotion and a faster climb would be nice to see but regardless Evolution is a proven and supported fact that cannot be disputed either rationally or scientifically.

The above links showing its already massive benefit to mankind that people do not realize all come from Evolutionary theory being proven right and researched presented well and in a understandable way i think would turn heads.
If they enacted such the academic ability would obviously worsen and such errors would self correct. In the end through I feel it should be a community's choice to determine their local curriculum.
Actually if you look at the educational standards of countries that adopt a theistic view it drops significantly along with human rights and other things.
I disagree. That trends will change or that a top down institution is the manner in which to win people over. To go back to the market place analogy its akin to forcing people to buy your product, I see it more sowing resentment then anything else.
You do not get a more top down institution than one that answers ultimately to a god but i understand your meaning.
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Cocytus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 pm

sonofccn wrote: Evolution hasn't sold well. 36 percent are indiffernt/undecided to the theroy and 25% flat out don't believe in it according to the Poll I linked too. Looking around they also had this which breaks it down to Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent design with Evolution getting 16 percent.
Why does any of that matter? It's an argumentum ad populum fallacy. That a minority of people believe in evolution has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of evolution. And as for the vaunted "marketplace of ideas?" It was pretty contemptuous of heliocentrism at the time, and it was proved severely wrong in time, as it will be again. Reality is not subject to a democratic vote.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by sonofccn » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:55 am

Cocytus wrote:Why does any of that matter? It's an argumentum ad populum fallacy.
It would be if I argued Creationism was correct due to popularity. I have not. My point is A. Evolution has not sold well in the US of A all things considered which as evidence I linked to some polls showing this and B. People have a right to be wrong and have a right to teach their children what they believe in hence why I did not have a negative reaction of ID being taught in school if the comuninity wanted it taught.
Cocytus wrote:And as for the vaunted "marketplace of ideas?" It was pretty contemptuous of heliocentrism at the time, and it was proved severely wrong in time, as it will be again. Reality is not subject to a democratic vote.
I think your confusing public opinion with a "marketplace of ideas". One is a state which changes day to day generation to generation the other is a process where thoughts and ideas are traded between citizenry. Now I could be wrong, maybe Heliocentrism was forced down from on high at spear point to unquestioning plebes, but it doesn't seem to me an effective means of dissimulating knowledge or for social tranquility.

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Re: Political Compass?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:26 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Evolution is one of the most proven theories in science with so much material supporting it at this point at best it would only be adjusted, so even if a bit of evidence did come up that did not fit perfectly like every other bit has those with the evidence would still need another theory that is virtually identical that took into account all the facts already known.
right and you and I may accept it to be correct based on the evidence presented.

We however, have absolutely no right to impose our convictions on them..when their actions in this regard are one of the chief things we decry as wrong and not moral.



Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:They only care about Evolution because it proves a literal interpretation of the bible wrong and to many even now it offends many ignorant people because it proves we have a common ancestor with the great apes, hell it proves we are apes in the strictest definition of the word. So by using their idiotic versions of Evolution as the poster child they can drum up support from the ignorant masses and try to shoehorn in religious superstition as a science by saying "teach the controversy" when there is no scientific controversy.
and it neither disproves the existence of a supreme being or..said supreme entities possible "will" giving direction to the evolutionary process

again I think it's preposterous the Christian take on things but I'm not going to challenge a persons world views or seem then as unreasonable because only on the basis that they choose to go on faith
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Or as exampled in Kansas they even went as far as to RE-WRITE the very definition of science itself so it could include the supernatural.
This should never have been allowed I agree - A state run school should teach only the scientific method

now that being said any private institution that wants to teach whatever so long as it isn't treasonous is welcomed to do so
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Oh i accept many are not about to go dropping bombs over it but the moment they threaten science and education because of their silly bronze and iron age superstition they directly threaten the very things that prop up our civilization, allow it to continue and give it the ability to deal with future problems.
sure they should not have the ability to influence local and state policy I agree but you made it is as though it was the duty of every Atheist to actively destroy religion

and that's equally presumptuous and reckless

I also happen to believe if you're going to attack religion you can't be PC about it..you need to go after Islam, Buddhism. Christianity, Judaism ,Hinduism, Neo Pagan religions

in fact you know what? When was the last time any of us internet Atheist had a good Wiccan pwning? I mean seriously? When the last time any of us destroyed that new age numbutery and sent it's defenders running and as butthurt as SWST after he found out wong was wrong?

I mean seriously? Why is it always Christianity! Get 'em boys!! I miss the good ol'days of equal opportunity assault on value systems dammit!

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