Oh Jesus ... Army

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:04 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26 ... yt&emc=rss

Even the guy, who was first a theist before becoming an atheist, could think something as dumb as â€œI thought going to Iraq was right because we had God on our side.â€

So I guess "In God we Trust" is not going to go out of fashion anytime soon.

Roondar · Post by **Roondar** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:07 pm

Irrespective of who believes what I do have a serious problem with people who claim God (as in the one described in the christian bible) being solely on their side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know one of the main themes in the new testament (if not the main theme) is that we should all love one another and share what we have amongst all of humanity.

Another one seems to me (again, from the new testament) that if someone does violence the proper response is not in fact violence (turning the other cheek and such).

How then can someone who believes that support war in general or think God supports people who go out to kill others (and don't kid yourself - a lot of the people in Saddam's military employ where not there because they wanted to be)?

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:59 pm

The heavily religious are simultaneously stupid and hypocritical. They expect turn-the-other-cheek from other people and yet won't turn the other cheek themselves. Similarly, they see it as a breach of their civil rights when someone advocates secularism, same-sex marriage and the rights of other people to have their own religions.

Don't expect any logical, moral or even ethical behaviour from them. You'd be giving them far too much credit.

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:25 pm

While I can only speak for myself, I'll give a shot answering your questions Roondar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know one of the main themes in the new testament (if not the main theme) is that we should all love one another and share what we have amongst all of humanity.

While a worthy goal that only works when both parties are commited to it and it not an excuss to let evil run rampampt through the world. All the love in the world wouldn't have stopped Stalin or Hitler, but a bullet would have.

Another one seems to me (again, from the new testament) that if someone does violence the proper response is not in fact violence (turning the other cheek and such).

I may be wrong,it's been a long time since I've been very religious, but if I'm not mistaken that applies if someone attacks you, you are to turn the other cheek yes, but if that same person were to try and attack someone else you were supposed to stop him. Atleast that what I was told.

How then can someone who believes that support war in general or think God supports people who go out to kill others

Because while wars are horrible things, hell on earth, if one goals are honorable, if good comes out of it like making the Earth a better place why wouldn't God be on our side?

and don't kid yourself - a lot of the people in Saddam's military employ where not there because they wanted to be

I find that a balmy notion. Totaltion regiems generaly have no problems with finding help. Allowing mankind it's basest desires tend to do that. Besides saddam's mililitary was guilty at the very least of allowing Saddam and his ilk to stay in power.

In essence it comes down to this. There is evil in the world and to rid it good men and women will pay dearly for it. WHile I believe God would prefer if we solved our differences in a more "civilized" manner I think he would be even more dissapaonted in our turning a blind eye to the problems of the world.

Narsil can you tone it down a notch? It's not nice to insult more or less an entire religion.

Narsil wrote:Similarly, they see it as a breach of their civil rights when someone advocates secularism, same-sex marriage and the rights of other people to have their own religions.

When is all this? I know of religious people complaining about creationism not being taught in school but that deals with thier children not random people off the street. As to marriage bit don't know any of the details through I'm sure you know which side I stand. As to the last point WTF? I've never heard anything about christians not allowing other religions. All things considered we're pretty open minded, tolerant lot. Not perfect by any stretch but no one on this Earth is.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:16 pm

Narsil wrote:The heavily religious are simultaneously stupid and hypocritical. They expect turn-the-other-cheek from other people and yet won't turn the other cheek themselves. Similarly, they see it as a breach of their civil rights when someone advocates secularism, same-sex marriage and the rights of other people to have their own religions.

Don't expect any logical, moral or even ethical behaviour from them. You'd be giving them far too much credit.

Which heavily religious?

Pentecostal? Evangelical? Mormon? Neopagan? Quaker?

The Amish are as curious a sect as you'll find, but for all that, they insist that their children have to pledge to their lifestyle willingly as adults after seeing the devil's playground.

Some groups will feel affronted that same-sex marriage isn't recognized because they feel God does intend gay people to marry each other.

There is no ideology that can be ascribed to the "heavily religious" as a group, not that includes all the varieties. There are still religious pacifists out there, and even Christians who do take the bits about forgiving and turning the other cheek and all that seriously.

It's particularly hard to keep specific - and harmfully intolerant - ideologies from taking root in something as heavily stratified and compartmentalized as the US military. This is not news, even if it comes and goes in spurts over the decades.