Sharia Fiasco

[Cock_Knocker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM2dC1iWzww

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[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, lots of good points as far as I'm concerned.

[Praeothmin]

Yup, we're starting to have the same problems in Canada.
If you're Islamist, and our Canadian laws offend you, fear not, we will make a special by-law in order for you to live in our counrty the way you want to...

;)

[Cpl Kendall]

Yup, we're starting to have the same problems in Canada.
If you're Islamist, and our Canadian laws offend you, fear not, we will make a special by-law in order for you to live in our counrty the way you want to...

;)

What? The Sharia court proposal was shot down in Ontario and you are not permitted to wear a veil when you vote, also in Ontario. I wouldn't mind seeing something on what your claiming.

[Praeothmin]

The Sharia court proposal was also shot down in Quebec, but it took some time before someone woke up.
And we first started by allowing voting with a veil, before popular pressure made the government realize how stupid it was (also for the fact that some people suggested they would go vote with Vader's mask on, or anything covering their face...).

There is a Gym in Montreal that frosted over its windows so that the woman training there would not offend (by being viewed) by passing muslims.
The Kirpan being allowed in school (because it's not a weapon) by the Supreme Court, although it isn't allowed in an airport or in a Court of Law (because in these cases, it is a weapon).
Police officers wearing Turbans instead of their normal police caps, when this cap is as part of the uniform as the shirt, pants or shoes...

Do you need more examples?

[Cpl Kendall]

The Sharia court proposal was also shot down in Quebec, but it took some time before someone woke up.

Nothing the government does is fast, the important thing is that it was shut down.

And we first started by allowing voting with a veil, before popular pressure made the government realize how stupid it was (also for the fact that some people suggested they would go vote with Vader's mask on, or anything covering their face...).

It's gone isn't it? BS laws get allowed all the time, what's important was that it was addressed and dealt with.

There is a Gym in Montreal that frosted over its windows so that the woman training there would not offend (by being viewed) by passing muslims.

How is that any different than Curves?

The Kirpan being allowed in school (because it's not a weapon) by the Supreme Court, although it isn't allowed in an airport or in a Court of Law (because in these cases, it is a weapon).

Those are either blunt or glued shut. And their not muslims but sikhs.

Police officers wearing Turbans instead of their normal police caps, when this cap is as part of the uniform as the shirt, pants or shoes...

Again, sikhs. However this is a non issue as it's no different than wearing the forage cap they usually wear, it's not like either provide protection. The military gets to wear them to but not in the field. I doubt a sikh on the ERT would be allowed to wear one.

Do you need more examples?

Considering two of them were not even muslim related, yes. Considering all the benefits christians get in Canada, no one should be complaining. Unless there is the will to tell them all to bugger off.

[Praeothmin]

Nothing the government does is fast, the important thing is that it was shut down.
It's gone isn't it? BS laws get allowed all the time, what's important was that it was addressed and dealt with.

Yes, but sometimes the simple fact it is considered instead of being outright dismissed seems a little far-fetched for me.
For example, the veil-voting issue.
It started by being automatically accepted for all muslims, but any non-muslim that would have wanted to vote with his face covered would have been refused.
Only public pressure finally prevailed.

How is that any different than Curves?

What is Curves?

Those are either blunt or glued shut. And their not muslims but sikhs.

Try to do the same thing with a hunting knife, under the pretext that its your religious belief, and that the knife is glued or sowed in its sheath, and lets see how far that gets you in public, just for fun...
And you're right, those are Sikhs, but the point is that we yield on many rules that should be the same for all, when a minority voices its displeasure because one of our laws inconveniences them in their religious beliefs or practices.
Those laws were there before they came to live here, and we accomodated our religious practices to modern society, our society, the society they chose, and were not forced to live in.
I don't prone assimiliation, because I don't think someone should forget their origin or religion, but I do prone adaptation, especially when you ask for a new country to accept you and they do, you should respect their laws as they are.

However this is a non issue as it's no different than wearing the forage cap they usually wear, it's not like either provide protection.

No, it's not.
Police officers have dress codes, and when you accept their rules of conduct, their regulations, because you want the job, you should also follow all the rules.

Look, we as a society have decided to separate public and religious life, we have taken the crucifix out of schools and Parliament.
We should not allow special treatment of anybody because of their religious beliefs.
You go at a school with a dress code, all the children have the same clothing, no exception.
Why should it be different in this case?

Considering all the benefits christians get in Canada, no one should be complaining.

What benefits do they get that no one else has?
I really can't think of any off the top of my head.

Basically, what I'm saying is that, nobody should have different set of rules because of religion...

[Cpl Kendall]

Yes, but sometimes the simple fact it is considered instead of being outright dismissed seems a little far-fetched for me.
For example, the veil-voting issue.
It started by being automatically accepted for all muslims, but any non-muslim that would have wanted to vote with his face covered would have been refused.
Only public pressure finally prevailed.

Stupid laws will get passed, that is the nature of democracy. What is important is that they can be redressed, now a survey could have been done to gauge public reaction but it worked out fine.

What is Curves?

It's a woman's only gym with frosted glass windows. They might not be in Quebec, their all over Ontario.

Try to do the same thing with a hunting knife, under the pretext that its your religious belief, and that the knife is glued or sowed in its sheath, and lets see how far that gets you in public, just for fun...

I don't have to go that far, I and everyone in my high school apprenticeship program carried a leatherman around openly. And I do still wear it in public. You are allowed to carry a knife under four inches in your pocket or on your belt (covered up). If it's over four inches it must be visible, otherwise it's now a concealed weapon.

And you're right, those are Sikhs, but the point is that we yield on many rules that should be the same for all, when a minority voices its displeasure because one of our laws inconveniences them in their religious beliefs or practices.

Canada is no longer a WASP nation (though it pretty much is in rural Quebec), it must adapt to serve it's population. And as long as religious freedom is a right than there will be things like this.

Those laws were there before they came to live here, and we accomodated our religious practices to modern society, our society, the society they chose, and were not forced to live in.

What is Canadian society? The French-Canadians, Acadians, Metis, etc spread out across the country? Canada has never had one universal culture, what's changing is that people are coming to Canada that aren't from Europe with "strange and scary beliefs".

I don't prone assimiliation, because I don't think someone should forget their origin or religion, but I do prone adaptation, especially when you ask for a new country to accept you and they do, you should respect their laws as they are.

I don't see anyone disrespecting them, in fact the immigrant community contains some of the most productive and law-abiding I am aware of. There's always shitbats in any group that make it look bad for everyone.

No, it's not.
Police officers have dress codes, and when you accept their rules of conduct, their regulations, because you want the job, you should also follow all the rules.

Dress codes change all the time, would there be an outcry if a Jewish officer wanted to wear his skullcap?

Look, we as a society have decided to separate public and religious life, we have taken the crucifix out of schools and Parliament.
We should not allow special treatment of anybody because of their religious beliefs.

No we shouldn't, however the law of land is religious freedom. That implies a certain amount of comprimise.

You go at a school with a dress code, all the children have the same clothing, no exception.
Why should it be different in this case?

I think you'll find that the students are still allowed to wear crosses, skullcaps and other relevant religious icons. That's all a turban and kirpan are.

What benefits do they get that no one else has?
I really can't think of any off the top of my head.

Catholic schools, stat holidays based on christian holidays, the hutterites can dress like it's 1800 (no one cares about that).

Basically, what I'm saying is that, nobody should have different set of rules because of religion...

I agree but as long as there are religions in Canada, there will be comprimise. I'm all for destroying these institutions but I think you can see what result that would have.

[Praeothmin]

I don't have to go that far, I and everyone in my high school apprenticeship program carried a leatherman around openly. And I do still wear it in public. You are allowed to carry a knife under four inches in your pocket or on your belt (covered up).

We weren't allowed to in my schools, either elementary or public.
Even a swiss knife was forbidden at my High school.
And I still don't like the idea of even a sheated knife being allowed...

Canada is no longer a WASP nation (though it pretty much is in rural Quebec),

Having been to rural Ontario, and rural New-Brunswick, I'd say we are still WASP in pretty much any rural place across the country... Even towards the "city-people"... :)

Canada has never had one universal culture, what's changing is that people are coming to Canada that aren't from Europe with "strange and scary beliefs".

We do have main "cultural themes", like the belief in Democracy, Equality for men and women, Freedom of speech and yes, even Freedom of religion.
But Freedom doesn't mean you have to impose your views and religion to others.
Just because your religious beliefs say that women are inferior and that they have no right to see the body of a man, doesn't mean that we must provide, asap, a male doctor for your confort.
If you're injured, and you come in to the ER and the only available Doctor is a woman, then you will be treated by her or not at all.

in fact the immigrant community contains some of the most productive and law-abiding I am aware of.

No argument here... :)

Dress codes change all the time, would there be an outcry if a Jewish officer wanted to wear his skullcap?

In all honesty, I don't care whether women wear the veil, the long robes, or whether men wear the turban, as long as it is in their "everyday lives",
not their public jobs where the uniform... hhhmmm... okay, I was thinking about the fact that patrol officers no longer needed to wear their Caps, and I thought to myself that I really didn't mind, in fact, if the muslim officer wore his turban or the normal cap...
So forget about that one... :)

That implies a certain amount of comprimise.

Agreed.
I guess we simply don't agree on the amount necessary...

I think you'll find that the students are still allowed to wear crosses, skullcaps and other relevant religious icons. That's all a turban and kirpan are.

Crosses and Jewish skullcaps are usually not that apparent, compared to a Turban and a Kirpan.
But again, thinking of it, I really don't mind the Turban as much as the Kirpan (for the aforementioned reasons)...

Catholic schools, stat holidays based on christian holidays, the hutterites can dress like it's 1800 (no one cares about that).

Well, considering this society was based on the Catholic church, I'd say that's not as much an advantage as the norm, especially since everyone benefits from the holidays no matter their religion.
And as I also stated, we are separating Church and everyday life more and more, so I don't see why we should make special rules for other religions when we're pushing the majority religion away from our everyday lives...

And as I said earlier, I don't mind about the everyday clothing worn, so the Hutterites can dress as they will (except where their children go to a school with a dress code).
I really only cared about the Turbans, then realized I really didn't have a reason to...

I agree but as long as there are religions in Canada, there will be comprimise. I'm all for destroying these institutions but I think you can see what result that would have.

I think this resumes it well:
We both agree that a lot of the compromises are just too ridiculous, but we simply disagree on what should be accepted or not.

[Cpl Kendall]

We weren't allowed to in my schools, either elementary or public.
Even a swiss knife was forbidden at my High school.
And I still don't like the idea of even a sheated knife being allowed...

I understand that it is a common policy now, I've been out of school for 12 years, so I don't doubt that things have changed. I went to a high school in Surrey, BC. Which has a very large Indian population and interestingly enough there wasn't one incident of knife violence despite it being a very crappy school. After moving to a more well to do township, where tons of people still carried knives or tools in school there wasn't any incidents either.

Having been to rural Ontario, and rural New-Brunswick, I'd say we are still WASP in pretty much any rural place across the country... Even towards the "city-people"... :)

It seems that most rural areas in Canada are filled with WASPs. You should see the local paper here, more religious content than the newsletter the local catholic church puts out.

We do have main "cultural themes", like the belief in Democracy, Equality for men and women, Freedom of speech and yes, even Freedom of religion.
But Freedom doesn't mean you have to impose your views and religion to others.

There seems to be very little in the way of that going on. The sharia court would be the most obvious example of course but there's always dumbasses trying to push this kind of thing. Certain members of the PC party come to mind.

Just because your religious beliefs say that women are inferior and that they have no right to see the body of a man, doesn't mean that we must provide, asap, a male doctor for your confort.
If you're injured, and you come in to the ER and the only available Doctor is a woman, then you will be treated by her or not at all.

I agree and I don't believe that is an actual policy. You may express the wish for this to happen but when you get there in critical condition, you get the duty doctor. Man or woman.

No argument here... :)

Great.

In all honesty, I don't care whether women wear the veil, the long robes, or whether men wear the turban, as long as it is in their "everyday lives",
not their public jobs where the uniform... hhhmmm... okay, I was thinking about the fact that patrol officers no longer needed to wear their Caps, and I thought to myself that I really didn't mind, in fact, if the muslim officer wore his turban or the normal cap...
So forget about that one... :)

Yeah, half the time the officer doesn't put his headress on when he gets out. The only force I've seen that is consistant on that is the RCMP.

Agreed.
I guess we simply don't agree on the amount necessary...

*shrug* Is that a big deal?

Crosses and Jewish skullcaps are usually not that apparent, compared to a Turban and a Kirpan.
But again, thinking of it, I really don't mind the Turban as much as the Kirpan (for the aforementioned reasons)...

I'm more concerned with the kids running down someone in the school parking lot than I am with an essentially useless knife. Far more potential for damage.

Well, considering this society was based on the Catholic church, I'd say that's not as much an advantage as the norm, especially since everyone benefits from the holidays no matter their religion.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone got Ramadan off though?

And as I also stated, we are separating Church and everyday life more and more, so I don't see why we should make special rules for other religions when we're pushing the majority religion away from our everyday lives...

Canada will one day be completely secular, you can see that coming with the huge dropoff in church attendance. Not to say that there won't be hiccups along the way but as long as we're moving forward more than we fallback we should be fine.

And as I said earlier, I don't mind about the everyday clothing worn, so the Hutterites can dress as they will (except where their children go to a school with a dress code).
I really only cared about the Turbans, then realized I really didn't have a reason to...

I think Hutterites are home or community schooled anyways. It was just an example of people displaying religious garb.

I think this resumes it well:
We both agree that a lot of the compromises are just too ridiculous, but we simply disagree on what should be accepted or not.

There's thirty million Canadians, so you'd get thirty million different positions. Of that I have no doubt.

[Praeothmin]

That's settled then.
But I'd like to say thanks, 'cause you made me realize that I really shouldn't care that much about Turbans, and that I was actually lumping everything in the same basket, when there actually are different "levels" of compromise...

[Cpl Kendall]

That's settled then.
But I'd like to say thanks, 'cause you made me realize that I really shouldn't care that much about Turbans, and that I was actually lumping everything in the same basket, when there actually are different "levels" of compromise...

No problem, there are very few things in life that are black and white. More like a shade of grey.