Me debating

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User1442
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Me debating

Post by User1442 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:23 pm

Le me trying to debate:

Me: Man I love Star wars, and I like star trek for the most part. Hey, a debate site about the two, this sounds like fun! Let's see......um..... Star wars is better cause of Lightsabers and death stars!

Star trek fan: Well you see a in episode 104 of TNG we see...(lose focus on what the words are saying, skip ahead).....and if we multiply its trajectory by the mass of the ship then we......(lose focus again and skip ahead)......and (whatever character) says this, so we know in fact that the death Star sucks and lightsabers are useless.

Me: (A small part of me cries out in terror and is suddenly silenced.)

Star wars fan replies: But you didn't take into account the shadow that we saw in frame 6 of scene 22 in episode IV.......(goes on rant)

Me: Starts slowly rocking myself crying while murmuring to self "I don't wanna debate anymore."

359
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Re: Me debating

Post by 359 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:19 am

That makes a lot of sense when you put it like that and I can see how one could find it uninteresting and prefer a more qualitative approach than the common quantitative analysis.


Although I can't say I truly understand it as I tend to enjoy analysis; as is evident in the thread Warp Speeds List in the Trek/Wars sub-forum in the first post on the 13th page. There I clearly enjoy converting bits of dialog data into numbers regarding ship specifications.

And additionally in many posts in the Type-I Phaser Firepower thread in the Trek/Wars sub-forum on page one I convert multiple visual clips into numerical data on type-I phasers based on material vaporization necessary to achieve observed events using basic heat equations. Also in one such example I determine a material to be similar to native nickel based of its metallic appearance and how the light reflects off it in several frames. :)

User1442
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Re: Me debating

Post by User1442 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

I do enjoy the entire puzzle aspect of the debate, in the way of putting together various scenes to reach a conclusion, I just ain't enough of a nerd to go as far as a lot of you people. I'm a ranch hand in real life and though I've seen alotta episodes of star trek, I haven't seen enough to notice these tidbits y'all seem to notice.

Praeothmin
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Re: Me debating

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:37 pm

You would if you truly enjoyed debating... ;-)

User1442
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Re: Me debating

Post by User1442 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:17 am

I just ain't enough of a nerd.

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2046
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Re: Me debating

Post by 2046 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:31 am

leon_caboose wrote:I'm a ranch hand in real life


Image

I can't stop wanting you.

(Note: in the future when the picture is no longer accessible, this post will be hysterically-creepy-looking. Rossi!)

As for being enough of a nerd, have no fear.

1. The debates and discussions are the product of years and years of people watching and re-watching and bringing up examples and analyzing them to death, leading to even more examples being brought to bear. Seasoned debaters know them well and have a repertoire of other examples in mind that they haven't gotten around to yet, and so on.

Or, not being enough of a nerd can lead to 2. Dating. Rumor has it girls can be touched but this is a mystery. If you have any data on this phenomenon please provide a description of the texture using a common point of reference for us of the Klingon forehead makeup of specific characters, e.g. "her arm was as smooth as B'Elanna's forehead, her elbow soft but Klaa-like".

(Note: Also a joke)

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Re: Me debating

Post by Sandyin » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:54 pm

2046 wrote:2. Dating. Rumor has it girls can be touched but this is a mystery.


I think Crow T. Robot has the final word on the alleged phenomenon of "Women".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8O4UWeAglU

Lucky
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Re: Me debating

Post by Lucky » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:40 am

leon_caboose wrote: I do enjoy the entire puzzle aspect of the debate, in the way of putting together various scenes to reach a conclusion, I just ain't enough of a nerd to go as far as a lot of you people. I'm a ranch hand in real life and though I've seen alotta episodes of star trek, I haven't seen enough to notice these tidbits y'all seem to notice.

Most of us are old hands at this. I was lurking at various verses debate sites for years, and I kind of started saving quotes that I thought might be useful to have if I ever started to debate.

+++++

Finding information on Star isn't all that hard do to. Star Trek fans are oddly good at organizing the data from the shows and movies.

I usually first go to Memory Alpha. The pages are well sourced and well organized, but it is still a wiki made and maintained by fans so you need to double check things. Memory Alpha contains a large amount of information ranging from interviews to pictures, and some scripts(somewhere).
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Then I tend to go to "Chrissie's Transcripts Site/chakoteya.net" which has transcripts for every Star Trek episode and most of the movies. For Star Trek only what made it into the actual episode is "canon", and a simple command F on Chrissie's will let you search the pages.
http://www.chakoteya.net/index.html

If I am looking for screen captures I go to Trekcore. It has every episode and movie in screen capture form from beginning to end. It doesn't always have what I'm looking for, but it is the best place to look. I usually type trekcore and the episode's name into Google. Keep in mind that DVD screen caps will be different from HD/Blue Ray screen caps.
http://www.trekcore.com/

If I'm looking for a video clip, I often search Youtube, but that is hit or miss.

If I want to actually watch a Star Trek episode I use Netflix

The official Star Trek site is useful, and seems to play Star Trek episodes.
http://www.startrek.com/

Not all of the sections work, and it appears likely the site will never be finished, but it is still very useful.
http://echelon.0catch.com/

+++++

If you are searching for information on Star Wars it is more difficult to find reliable information on even though there is so much more Star Wars to go through if you could c level canon/the extended universe.

Wookiepedia is corrupted by verse debaters, for example: the on Base Delta Zero page, you will notice the two links at the bottom are verses debating sites run by the same group of people(Curtis Saxton, Mike Wong/Star Destroyer.net, and Brian Young are old buddies in verse debates), and the picture of the star destroyer shooting at the yellowish thing should not be there as the picture has nothing to do with BDZ.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero
Do not assume anything you read at Wookiepedia is 100% correct unless you have a way to verify it.

2046's site has a large number of quotes scattered throughout it, but he has a long reputation in verse debating so it would be best for you to not link to the site as it looks like you are just blindly parroting what he said.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

2046 intends to cover the "Star Wars: The Clone Wars" TV series, but he seems to have stalled at season 2.
http://www.nolettershome.info/

You can find Star Wars movie scripts at these locations. They seem to host different versions of the scripts.
http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/index.shtml
http://www.imsdb.com/writer.php?w=George%20Lucas

The Star Wars official site is useful, but not as good as it use to be.
http://starwars.com/

I seem to recall there being sites online that let you watch Star Wars: The Clone Wars for free.

This page about the Super-Star Destroyer in Return of the Jedi is useful.
http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/2013/1 ... surements/

WIRED.com has some analysis of Star Wars
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/ ... ter-speed/
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... ot-second/

over at Spacebattles.com a poster that goes by the name of Jared made a list of Star Wars firepower. Post number 929
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... st-8665947

This is an article refuting Dr.Curtus Saxton's claim that Endor was destroyed by the destroyed Death Star 2. It is something you should likely read so you know what the "Endor Holocaust" is.
http://web.archive.org/web/200602020015 ... les/endor/

http://web.archive.org/web/200603181845 ... 040810.pdf

Here is some work by Mr. Oragahn before he was banned from Spacebattles for reasons I'm not clear on.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... ds.125843/

I would suggest watching the new Rebels cartoon, and taking notes on anything that catches your eye, and I've heard rumors that the Clone Wars series will be on Netflix.

+++++

LEXICANUM is the Warhammer 40,000 wiki seems to be about as well sourced as Memory Alpha.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.Uvwr-xxnb9k

Google Search: "battlefleet Gothic Resources: Basic rules" and you can down load a PDF version of the Battle Fleet Gothic game. Battle Fleet Gothic is the Warhammer 40,000's spaceship VS Spaceship game and loaded with fluff.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... =21500018a

You can see how a Warhammer 40,000 debate can go here.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... nt.216863/

+++++

Here is a site with scans cataloging the abilities of pretty much every comic book superhero or supervillain there is.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/

This site houses extremely detailed articles on rather obscure things in Marvel Comics.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/index.htm

+++++

This page has links to useful metrooid sites, and houses a large amount of well sourced Metroid information.
http://www.metroidwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

+++++

Here are some generally useful sites

Encyclopedia Britannica online
http://www.britannica.com/

Merriam-Webster online dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia

Atomic Rockets/projectrho.com has loads on information about real world science and technology that relates to science fiction, and it has a number of calculators.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/

The Internet Movie Firearms Database is interesting. I'm not sure if it will be useful, but i find it fun to check what guns were used in the movies i watch.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page

Feel free use the search function on Star Fleet Jedi. There is a lot here beyond Star Trek, Star Wars, and Warhammer 40,000.

+++++

Tips
1) Don't debate at Stardestroyer.net. The place has a bad reputation for a reason.

2) Don't tell people what your educational background is or what you do for a living. They don't need to know, and it does not really matter. There is no degree in analyzing fictional settings.

3) Never take a quote from the Star Trek technical manuals as evidence as they are self contradictory often. For example: the Next Generation tech manual gives three different maximum yields for photon torpedos.

Page: 129
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield (assuming E=MC^2 and 100% efficiency) = about 64 Megatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 2.39 Gigatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 5 kilotons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 129 wrote:

While the maximum payload of anti-matter in a standard torpedo is only about 1.5 kilograms, the released energy per unit of time is actual greater then that calculated for a Galaxy class anti-matterpod rupture.

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 64.44 Megatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote:

Matter from the primary deuterium tankage and the total supply of anti-matter from the storage pods on Deck 42 are expelled simultaneously, producing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly 1000 photon torpedos.

1 Megajoule = 1000000 Joules

10^15 = 1000000000000000

10^15 Megajoules = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J = 10 zettajoules

10 zettajoules = 2390057.36138 Megatons

2390057.36138 Megatons / 1000 = 2390.05736138 Megatons

2390.05736138 Megatons = 2.390057361 Gigatons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 2.39 Gigatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote:

The release yield of the secondary system is calculated to be 10^9 megajoules, roughly equivalent to 500 photon torpedos. The secondary destruct system becomes the primary system for the Saucer Module in Separated Flight Node.

10^9 Megajoules = 1000000000 Megajoules

1000000000 Megajoules = 10000000000000000 Joules

10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules = 10 Petajoules

10 Petajoules = 2390.05736138 kilotons

2390.05736138 kilotons / 500 = 4.78011472276 kilotons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 5 kilotons

Page: 55
Warp speed chart lists warp 9 as one thousand times the speed of light. You can likely see why this doesn't work.

Authors' Introduction Page: VII
An important word of caution: All Starfleet personnel are hereby advised that any previous technical documentation in your possession may be suspect because of an ongoing Starfleet program of disinformation intended to confound and confuse the intelligence assets of potential forces. Such documents should therefore be verified with Federation archives, and this manual for authenticity.

4) If someone makes a claim that sounds out outlandish ask for quotes or videos, and make sure they give the full quote. There many times the full quote will show something different then what is claimed. Lies by omission, or the person just making a mistake happen a lot more often then one would like.

5) Warhammer 40,000 has a horrible canon system making rather difficult to debate for or against. Everything is seemingly on equal footing making it impossible to work out contradictions.

User1442
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Re: Me debating

Post by User1442 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:47 pm

Wow......thats alotta stuff. I just rewatched Star wars: Attack of the clones, and i don't remember the acting being so forced and the plot being so cobbled. I think i'll just relegate myself to funny posts.

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Re: Me debating

Post by Lucky » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:12 am

leon_caboose wrote: Wow......thats alotta stuff.

I could have added more useful sites. ^_^

I hope you find some of it useful.

leon_caboose wrote: I just rewatched Star wars: Attack of the clones, and i don't remember the acting being so forced and the plot being so cobbled.

Episode 2 Attack of the Clones and Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith are the worsted of Star Wars.

Most people prefer the original trilogy and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars cartoon. Star Wars: The Clone Wars actually makes Anikin likable, and shows his gradual fall and the reasons for it.

leon_caboose wrote: I think i'll just relegate myself to funny posts.

If you have something to add do so even if you don't debate.

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Re: Me debating

Post by Praeothmin » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:05 pm

Ah, no, Lucky, the Phantom Menace is the worsted of all SW, the other two being better...

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Re: Me debating

Post by 2046 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:10 am

Lucky, my compliments to you for one of the greatest single posts for newbies ever constructed.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Me debating

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:10 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Ah, no, Lucky, the Phantom Menace is the worsted of all SW, the other two being better...


Bollocks.
A movie with Liam Neeson as a grey Jedi, podracing and no Chrissaksen whatever is better.
It also features the best lightsabre effects and choregraphy. Plus it was light on CGI compared to the two other ones.
So it is better, if you can ignore Jar Jar, the nonsensical plot, the crappy dialogue.

User1442
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Re: Me debating

Post by User1442 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:57 am

I actually like episode 3. Hayden Christensen is much better in it, it has a much better plot than AoTC, the dialogue while still hammy doesn't sound so forced, and its actually fun to watch.

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