A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

For any and all other discussion, i.e., not relating to Star Wars or Star Trek or standards of evidence. A reminder: Don't spam, don't flame, and stay reasonable.
Post Reply
Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Lucky » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:05 pm

Why is it that science fiction settings seem to lack metamaterials? Star Trek seems to be one of the few settings that makes use of things similar to metamaterials it seems like.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:05 pm

Star Wars EU has notes of nano technology. For example some references found in the Lando book I quoted recently.
What might explain the limited use of those metamaterials in other settings could be due to econommical and industrial pressures, especially in highly capitalistic and predatory environments meshed with bloated patent protocols. In and outside of that contest, more simply, prices could also explain that.
Plus metamaterials might be good at some tasks, but largely weak at others.
Perhaps some technologies were found which proved to effectively counter metamaterial to the point of making them less interesting and still way more expensive than good old lumps of metal, for example in armour. Add to that problems of mass production and maintainance.

All cyberpunk universes obviously are very metamaterial-friendly. Ghost in the Shell, Deus Ex, ShadowRun, etc.

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Lucky » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Star Wars EU has notes of nano technology. For example some references found in the Lando book I quoted recently.
Nanotechnology isn't metamaterials technology. Star Wars makes heavy use of big bulky dishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterials

http://www.kymetacorp.com/technology/

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What might explain the limited use of those metamaterials in other settings could be due to econommical and industrial pressures, especially in highly capitalistic and predatory environments meshed with bloated patent protocols. In and outside of that contest, more simply, prices could also explain that.
Plus metamaterials might be good at some tasks, but largely weak at others.

Perhaps some technologies were found which proved to effectively counter metamaterial to the point of making them less interesting and still way more expensive than good old lumps of metal, for example in armour. Add to that problems of mass production and maintainance.
Every technology has its strengths and weaknesses, but you aren't going to create a counter to a metamaterial antenna that won't be effective against more primitive designs. A few sensors tacked on to the hull of a ship, and it would no longer have a single blind stop.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/wirele ... ls-antenna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial_antenna

http://www.adant.com/files/adant-datasheet_2.4GHz.pdf

http://www.intellectualventures.com/ass ... erview.pdf

http://www.adant.com/files/adant-datasheet_5GHz.pdf

http://www.adant.com/files/adant-datasheet_5GHz.pdf
Mr. Oragahn wrote: All cyberpunk universes obviously are very metamaterial-friendly. Ghost in the Shell, Deus Ex, ShadowRun, etc.
Do you have any specific examples? The only thing I can think of is the major's skin.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:14 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Star Wars EU has notes of nano technology. For example some references found in the Lando book I quoted recently.
Nanotechnology isn't metamaterials technology.
Nanotechnology largely opens the door to the fine structures necessary for metamaterials.
In fact, it's quite hard to conceive an universe with nanotechnology and no knowledge of those fantastic meta properties.
They literally about to observers who start fiddling with materials arranged at the nanoscale.

The fact that it isn't mentionned out loud doesn't preclude their existence, really.

Star Wars makes heavy use of big bulky dishes.
The first link your provide in your second list gives a good reason why good old antennaes would still be used: much cheaper and reliable.
Low cost designs would obviously have massive drawbacks.
How is a design solid enough in space, against radiations and particles, when it's thin (in the case of the phased array)?
A metamaterial good for radio isn't also good by default against microimpacts for example.

However, for some reason, the tech development in several domains has stalled at some point rather dramatically in the warsverse. One only needs to be look at Vader's and Luke's artificial limbs to understand that. Pistons instead of synthetic muscles.
Only the android Guri was of a high quality, and equally extremely rare.
That said, they have extremely good AIs, while Data is an oddity in his universe. Guri would easily pass as a human to anyone who didn't know. Data would need considerable refinement to get there.
Enough disgressing anyway.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What might explain the limited use of those metamaterials in other settings could be due to econommical and industrial pressures, especially in highly capitalistic and predatory environments meshed with bloated patent protocols. In and outside of that contest, more simply, prices could also explain that.
Plus metamaterials might be good at some tasks, but largely weak at others.

Perhaps some technologies were found which proved to effectively counter metamaterial to the point of making them less interesting and still way more expensive than good old lumps of metal, for example in armour. Add to that problems of mass production and maintainance.
Every technology has its strengths and weaknesses, but you aren't going to create a counter to a metamaterial antenna that won't be effective against more primitive designs.
Depends on the function and goal of the device.
Btw, to use again the dish example, nothing tells us that the inside wouldn't be partially covered with metamaterials.

A few sensors tacked on to the hull of a ship, and it would no longer have a single blind stop.
The ISD had a blind spot because no one thought about sticking a damned simple antenna or mini globe there, to scan the back of the bridge tower.
The shape or tech level of the needed sensor is totally irrelevant.

Besides, talking about metamaterials and Star Wars, here's an interesting observation:
MIT news wrote:Researchers at MIT have now fabricated a three-dimensional, lightweight metamaterial lens that focuses radio waves with extreme precision. The concave lens exhibits a property called negative refraction, bending electromagnetic waves — in this case, radio waves — in exactly the opposite sense from which a normal concave lens would work.

Concave lenses typically radiate radio waves like spokes from a wheel. In this new metamaterial lens, however, radio waves converge, focusing on a single, precise point — a property impossible to replicate in natural materials.

For Isaac Ehrenberg, an MIT graduate student in mechanical engineering, the device evokes an image from the movie “Star Wars”: the Death Star, a space station that shoots laser beams from a concave dish, the lasers converging to a point to destroy nearby planets. While the researchers’ fabricated lens won’t be blasting any planetary bodies in the near future, Ehrenberg says there are other potential applications for the device, such as molecular and deep-space imaging.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: All cyberpunk universes obviously are very metamaterial-friendly. Ghost in the Shell, Deus Ex, ShadowRun, etc.
Do you have any specific examples? The only thing I can think of is the major's skin.
Nanotech allows the arrangement of materials in very specific ways. Thinking that they wouldn't know about metamaterials at that point doesn't make sense.

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Lucky » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:21 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Nanotechnology largely opens the door to the fine structures necessary for metamaterials.
In fact, it's quite hard to conceive an universe with nanotechnology and no knowledge of those fantastic meta properties.
They literally about to observers who start fiddling with materials arranged at the nanoscale.

The fact that it isn't mentionned out loud doesn't preclude their existence, really.
While true to a certain degree, the suggested method of creation
http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/wireless/intellectual-ventures-invents-beamsteering-metamaterials-antenna wrote: They’re also cheap: Metamaterial elements can be easily printed using standard lithographic techniques.
does not require nanotechnology, and there is no direct connection.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The first link your provide in your second list gives a good reason why good old antennaes would still be used: much cheaper and reliable.
You mean this page?
http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/wireless/intellectual-ventures-invents-beamsteering-metamaterials-antenna wrote: The idea of a metamaterials-based antenna isn’t new. Researchers have been working on it pretty much since metamaterials were discovered by Sir John Pendry at Imperial College London in 1999. They’re already found in some cellphones and wireless routers, which use their small size and range-boosting ability to great effect. They’re also cheap: Metamaterial elements can be easily printed using standard lithographic techniques.
Metamaterial antennas are cheap and effective.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Low cost designs would obviously have massive drawbacks.
An assumption with no basis in reality.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: How is a design solid enough in space, against radiations and particles, when it's thin (in the case of the phased array)?

A metamaterial good for radio isn't also good by default against microimpacts for example.
Generally speaking, if you have trouble with micrometeorites then losing a panel is likely the least of your worries, and more primitive antennas will have the same problems.

One of the nice things about Metamaterials is that you could literally cover the entire outer hull in easy to replace modular panels.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: However, for some reason, the tech development in several domains has stalled at some point rather dramatically in the warsverse. One only needs to be look at Vader's and Luke's artificial limbs to understand that. Pistons instead of synthetic muscles.
It seems that in many Sci-Fi and fantasy groups limit their own technological developments in certain areas for seemingly no reason.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Only the android Guri was of a high quality, and equally extremely rare.
That said, they have extremely good AIs, while Data is an oddity in his universe. Guri would easily pass as a human to anyone who didn't know. Data would need considerable refinement to get there.
Enough disgressing anyway.
No, A.I. are just more obvious in Star Wars as slavery is tolerated. Droids are just a slave race.

A.I. that are equal or better then humans are easy to create in Star Trek, and the only thing that is special about Data is his brain. I'd suggest you check TNG: "Ship in a Bottle", TNG: "Quality of Life", and Voy: "Author, Author", and one can't forget that doors only open when a person is ready to go through them. The Federation chooses to not use smart A.I. on what seems to be moral grounds, and this why a lot of technologies aren't used.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Depends on the function and goal of the device.
You'll never have a perfect anything.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Btw, to use again the dish example, nothing tells us that the inside wouldn't be partially covered with metamaterials.
That defeats the advantages of using metamaterial antennas. They just need line of sight

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The ISD had a blind spot because no one thought about sticking a damned simple antenna or mini globe there, to scan the back of the bridge tower.
The shape or tech level of the needed sensor is totally irrelevant.
Fair enough, they could have even just asked a different ship to check the blind spot.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Besides, talking about metamaterials and Star Wars, here's an interesting observation:

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/new-metamaterial-lens-focuses-radio-waves-1114.html wrote: Researchers at MIT have now fabricated a three-dimensional, lightweight metamaterial lens that focuses radio waves with extreme precision. The concave lens exhibits a property called negative refraction, bending electromagnetic waves — in this case, radio waves — in exactly the opposite sense from which a normal concave lens would work.

Concave lenses typically radiate radio waves like spokes from a wheel. In this new metamaterial lens, however, radio waves converge, focusing on a single, precise point — a property impossible to replicate in natural materials.

For Isaac Ehrenberg, an MIT graduate student in mechanical engineering, the device evokes an image from the movie “Star Wars”: the Death Star, a space station that shoots laser beams from a concave dish, the lasers converging to a point to destroy nearby planets. While the researchers’ fabricated lens won’t be blasting any planetary bodies in the near future, Ehrenberg says there are other potential applications for the device, such as molecular and deep-space imaging.
I wonder when the last time the author watched episode 4?

Looks and acts a lot like a navigational deflector.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Nanotech allows the arrangement of materials in very specific ways. Thinking that they wouldn't know about metamaterials at that point doesn't make sense.
I see no reason to assume a setting's technological development is like the real world's.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: A lack of Metamaterials in Sci-Fi

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:38 pm

The understanding on nanotech and its effects on material properties are undissociable from the discovery and understanding of metamaterials and their unique structural arrangements, which is obviously something that goes immediately under scrutiny and theory when playing with the nanoscale. That matematerials can be made without using nanotech is irrelevant.

Post Reply