Armageddon Online

[Picard]

You know, these funny times when human civilization almost nuked itself to destruction...

http://www.armageddononline.org/mistake ... world.html

[Picard]

http://www.cracked.com/article_19546_7- ... vived.html

[Lucky]

Those would be funny if they weren't real. We're just lucky the people calling the shots didn't panic.

There are a lot of things out there that would be funny if they didn't really happen.

[Picard]

That was sarcasm.

[Lucky]

That was sarcasm.

Not on my part. I take things that cost live rather seriously

During WW2 there was a Japanese pistol so badly designed that if you squeezed the grip it would fire. The fiercely proud and nationalistic Japanese officers all purchased European or American pistols.

The battle of the bulge, or Battle off Samar would be hilarious if they weren't real.

[Picard]

Yeah, and politicians drop nuclear weapons even when they definetly were not required.

If people were serious about life, world would have been very different place. Unfortunately...

http://madeinamericathebook.wordpress.c ... ife-worth/

[Lucky]

Yeah, and politicians drop nuclear weapons even when they definetly were not required.

The situation was not as cut and dry as those articles make it out to be, or there would be no debate over the topic. The USA and UK would have except an unconditional surrender, and Japan knew this at the time.

Japan knew it could not win the war, but Japan entered the war planning to get a favorable treaty out of the war after they put up a a good fight because they had believed the Americans to be weak in spirit/will, BIG MISTAKE.

Had Japan at the time of Midway wanted to end the war they only had to except unconditional surrender, but the Japanese would not except such an option at that point, and Japan was planning to fight to the last child. The dropping of the atomic bombs therefore can be said to have saved lives on both sides, and even after Japan surrendered many Japan soldiers refused to stop fighting even as late as the 1970s as I understand it.

If people were serious about life, world would have been very different place. Unfortunately...

http://madeinamericathebook.wordpress.c ... ife-worth/

I don't think they actually thought that sign through as much as you seem to think.

[Picard]

Yeah, and politicians drop nuclear weapons even when they definetly were not required.

The situation was not as cut and dry as those articles make it out to be, or there would be no debate over the topic. The USA and UK would have except an unconditional surrender, and Japan knew this at the time.

Japan knew it could not win the war, but Japan entered the war planning to get a favorable treaty out of the war after they put up a a good fight because they had believed the Americans to be weak in spirit/will, BIG MISTAKE.

Japan was ready to accept all US terms except one - that Hirohito be removed from position and be trialled for war cripes. Neither of which happened anyway.

Had Japan at the time of Midway wanted to end the war they only had to except unconditional surrender,

Again, unconditional surrender as defined by US at the time meant giving up Hirohito as the emperor.

but the Japanese would not except such an option at that point, and Japan was planning to fight to the last child. The dropping of the atomic bombs therefore can be said to have saved lives on both sides, and even after Japan surrendered many Japan soldiers refused to stop fighting even as late as the 1970s as I understand it.

Japan tried to surrender multiple times and was refused - not exactly "refused" as in "you can't surrender", but US kept insisting on one term they knew Japan couldn't accept.

If people were serious about life, world would have been very different place. Unfortunately...

http://madeinamericathebook.wordpress.c ... ife-worth/

I don't think they actually thought that sign through as much as you seem to think.

Well, my problem is that they didn't think. Neither politicians do.

[Lucky]

Yeah, and politicians drop nuclear weapons even when they definetly were not required.

The situation was not as cut and dry as those articles make it out to be, or there would be no debate over the topic. The USA and UK would have except an unconditional surrender, and Japan knew this at the time.

Japan knew it could not win the war, but Japan entered the war planning to get a favorable treaty out of the war after they put up a a good fight because they had believed the Americans to be weak in spirit/will, BIG MISTAKE.

Japan was ready to accept all US terms except one - that Hirohito be removed from position and be trialled for war cripes. Neither of which happened anyway.

Had Japan at the time of Midway wanted to end the war they only had to except unconditional surrender,

Again, unconditional surrender as defined by US at the time meant giving up Hirohito as the emperor.

but the Japanese would not except such an option at that point, and Japan was planning to fight to the last child. The dropping of the atomic bombs therefore can be said to have saved lives on both sides, and even after Japan surrendered many Japan soldiers refused to stop fighting even as late as the 1970s as I understand it.

Japan tried to surrender multiple times and was refused - not exactly "refused" as in "you can't surrender", but US kept insisting on one term they knew Japan couldn't accept.

What Japan was asking would at least appear to be the equivalent of Germany asked that Hitler be left alone. That sort of request wouldn't fly.

Well, my problem is that they didn't think. Neither politicians do.

It is a poorly designed sign, and nothing more. People make stupid signs all the time.

[Picard]

What Japan was asking would at least appear to be the equivalent of Germany asked that Hitler be left alone. That sort of request wouldn't fly.

Except in this case, Hitler was left alone anyway.

Hirohito remained alive, and was very much Japanese Emperor until his death. Besides, comparing him with Hitler isn't correct, as it was obvious entire time that Hirohito is nothing more than a figurehead.

[sonofccn]

Japan was ready to accept all US terms except one - that Hirohito be removed from position and be trialled for war cripes. Neither of which happened anyway.

Actually as per HIROSHIMA:WAS IT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY? which you cited as evidence, and therefore feel it has some validity, argues against that notion.

While the Allied surrender terms did not explicitly guarantee the Emperor's retention, neither did they refuse the request made by Japan to the Allies on August 10, 1945 to keep the Emperor.

And

Moreover, the August 11, 1945 Allied response referred to the Emperor's continuing role in Japanese government: "the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers" (JDTS, pg. 245). Sec. of War Stimson later explained, "the Allied reply... implicitly recognized the Emperor's position by prescribing that his power must be subject to the orders of the Allied supreme commander" (OASIPAW, pg. 627).

Further the same source contains lines such as this:

The conditions under which Japan was willing to surrender were not clearly spelled out in the messages, aside from a willingness to give up territory occupied during the war and a repeated rejection of "unconditional surrender".

So essentially completely overwhelmed and outgunned, with the only question being just how many of its citizens it would sacrifice Japan was willing to call the War a draw.

If you have evidence to the contrary of course you may freely post the revelant bits in this page.

Further for a matter of perspective according to this site the death toll for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 150,000 and 75,000 respectively. For comparison here estimates the death toll for the Tokyo firebombing at 80,000-200,000. While far more efficent in terms of bombs used morally speaking in terms of people killed the bombings were merely the end note in a long and bloody war.

[Lucky]

What Japan was asking would at least appear to be the equivalent of Germany asked that Hitler be left alone. That sort of request wouldn't fly.

Except in this case, Hitler was left alone anyway.

Hirohito remained alive, and was very much Japanese Emperor until his death. Besides, comparing him with Hitler isn't correct, as it was obvious entire time that Hirohito is nothing more than a figurehead.

What was determined at a later point has no bearing on what may have been.