THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:19 pm

sonofccn wrote:@ Mr. Oragahn

Okay. Suffice it to say we don't disagree. No that is too shallow a word. At the risk of getting a demerit you come off as a crazed Marxist filled with delusional classwarfare blather.
I don't fancy marxism, although it was a correct ad hoc analysis of capitalism.
And I don't think there's anything crazy about pointing out the obvious conclusion and reality of capitalism. Capitalism can only be accepted to some degree if it's severely tamed, like regulated capitalism, which is quite an oxymoron.

To cut a very long, very dry, very,very wandering post of yours down to size I'll be succient.
A) I define Capitalism as the free exchange of goods and service between two parties. Be they people or corporations.
Which absolutely means a free market, since exchange is market.
What would work on a small to medium level with plenty of redundancy and competition completely falls apart in a pyramidal corporation/trust system.
The United States even tried to prevent the trust issue with laws, but soon new legal systems were created to circumvent those laws.
B) I submit humans will not work for another without compensation including inventing and if compensated it is infact Capitalism, the free trade of resources between two parties.
OK. But then let's just consider that compensation has always existed, even under the form of mere bartering, although Church and Lords kept an eye on how things were done.
Several times in history, several goods got their prices fixed by decree, not by offer and demand. This resulted in good things and bad things.
Capitalism repudiates such kind of involvement.
When Jesus kicked some serious arse in his temple, he was certainly not conforming to the rules of offer and demand either. :D
C) Capitalism is good for everyone. Under it the Rich put up capital to fund ventures or fulfill needs for goods they require and the Poor are employed to fill them and paid wages which they find sufficent for their assets. I do not see this exploitation which seem to permuate your thoughts.
Yet said exploitation is everywhere. You seem to think that as long as people have money, they can buy more and more and more, but there are many strong limits to that, be they related to resources limitations to habits.
D)Commies badly mismanaged their food production as places like N. Korea, Zimbabwe, USSR and Red China show. The US conversely grows more food than we could possibly eat so given a choice between free market-free ownership and collectivism I know which I would pick.
I'm not trying to defend those states, although I'm very curious about the degree of error in such "mismanagement" really.

The US produces too much food. For one, it produces waaay too much meat.
They could certainly correct this.
E) Provided you could find a profitable way to "bottle" it and sell it that couldn't immeditely be undercut by the guy with the lot next door I don't have an issue with air being sold. Its a resource, naturally it should be ownable to someone but I honestly don't see how you'd be able to regulate it. Of course the first to market would make a killing, if you have a worthwhile idea I might be intersted in trying to raise some capital for it. :)
Still thinking about it...

Now, the very fact that you don't see any problem with making money out of selling air is, seriously, something that would give me a reason to kick you out of my country presto. No offense. :p
F)I've not doubt missed something but I don't really care. Fun is fun but this is growing tiresome. You have clearly been too badly brainwashed by evil Marxists intent on imposing their brutal slave-ownership over mankind stealing you from the one true path of Capitalism. I'll burn a dollar for your lost way. ;-)

-the unrepented Capitalist
You have certainly not refrained yourself from reducing several points to ad hominems, from accusations of crazy hippy shit to drooling marxist.
The analysis from Marx wouldn't be so criticized if it weren't so perverted by politicians, notably to keep the proletarians from realizing that their enemy is not the employer who gains twice or thrice more money than they do, and which also ends killing small scale entrepreneurship. But then there's the whole bourgeoisie mindset which also represents a phlegmatic problem, although, truth being said, some of the best criticism of the modern society comes from that milieu. But they have more time to think, and better education to read the world adequately.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:31 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:man both Mister O and Picard are savvy posters with a good sense of debating but mother of god..do they go into a romansque orgy of hate and bashery whenever this topic comes up
lol
this made me laugh though they probably have more to fear of me than you..I'm of the opinion that the state should one day be abolished entirely
I agree. But only when people will be mature enough not to mean anarchy and law of the jungle. Which means each individual becoming super sentient and being able, on a whim, to unite with brothers and sisters anytime when a danger is sensed.
However, the reality about the populace is that nothing as such will ever happen. You still need a ruling system of some sort.

Oh, btw. Lending money at with interest rates is also an aspect of capitalism.
A pity that this was once forbidden by the Church, but isn't anymore. Muslims unilaterally forbid it, while Jews forbid it among themselves but allow it to be practiced from Jews to Goyim.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by mojo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:44 pm

"For God so loved the world, that when he realized he had made a mistake and it would be necessary to fix his errors, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, and also atheists who do not believe in him but try to be good as best they can, shall not perish, but have everlasting life, assuming that they do enough good deeds."
-John 3:16, revised edition

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:32 pm

sonofccn wrote:And I in turn would call only "free market capitalism" Capitalism. To me "Socialistic capitalism" or Crony capitalism is just another source of collusion with the goverment.
And seeing what is happening here, and what is happening in the US, little governmental control over capitalists is exactly what we need. Except that government will have to find a way to stop being controlled by capitalists before that.
I really don't see what you mean. Capitalism rewards incentive and work and does not by design reward unethical behavior and indeed places moderation on such vices. Grind up old widows for cat food and people buy other products, pay your wage slaves pennies and they go down the street to a competitor who pays quarters. 
Except that all capitalists want only one thing – to get as much profit as possible. That means lowering wages while increasing prices, as well as reducing number of workers while forcing them to work harder. And they can't complain, beacouse they know there are 5 people on the street who can take their place. So no, your logic doesn't work.
But in addition Capitalism, unlike collectivism, does not require virtue on behalf of its particpants. The Baker may be an immoral cad who bakes bread for his own selfish purposes but the town still has fresh bread each and every morning, the same for the cobbler, the same for the wine maker.
Except when he sells them shitty bread, and they can't do anything beacouse either there is no other baker, or all other bakers are same.

But problem in capitalism is that it sells you shitty product, and lies to you about it. Products are being sold in Europe and US several times more expensive than they should be given costs of their production, even when you account for all taxes and everything. Yet workers get only enough so as not to drop dead. For example, Nike (also Adidas, Puma or any other multinational shoe-making corporation) pays its workers only few cents per hour (all of its factories are abroad, in Indonesia, China, etc.).. In that one hour, worker can make 2 to 4 pairs of shoes, which are then sold in the US and Europe at hundred dollars per pair at least. And given that average pay is much less than what is required to secure most basic of needs for entire family, entire family is forced to work. Meaning that children can't get education, and are forced to live in same shithole and same conditions as their parents – so will be their children, children of those children, and so on. Until something changes. When or how will that happen, only God knows.

Granted, I probably used wrong terms – I'm actually talking about corporatism, but corporatism is nothing more than unregulated capitalism; capitalism in its second purest form (aside from slave societies of old).
I honestly do not see why I should pay for someone else. I believe in paying for services rendered, I don't mind roads or that there is a military protecting me from threats both abroad and domestic ect, but I am not indebted to pay for someone else's problem. We are all Freemen, and women, not children and not wards.
Then why you don't go to jungle and live on your own? Society is built around people helping each other. Granted, money is good way of ensuring that people don't take too much (what do you think would happen if everything was free? It would probably turn into free-for-all. But some basic needs, like health care and absolute minimum of food and water (public kitchens), should be made free. (But not completely free – person should have right on, in case of hospitals, free treatment and certain number of medical examinations per year, but any extra examinations or non-prescribed drugs should be paid for).
Secondly I believe people use their own resources far more wisely and with caution then they exploit "Free" services which prompts needless waste. And as extension buisness perform better when they have a stake in the game unlike public institutions which win or loss come out ahead.
True. Which is why I think there should be limits to free services, but not that they should be removed entirely (read above). And as for public institutions... Croatian shipbuilding industry was one of strongest in the world, until privatization happened.
Thirdly it is of my opinion private enterprises are a more efficent use of funds then public. From the US postal service to the public school system such institutions are massive wastes of tax payer dollars with subpar results.
Simply not true. Corporations do anything to make profit.

http://themistoclesletters.blogspot.com ... oggle.html

http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/mili ... /0/weapsb1

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,187737,00.html

F-22 was 10 years late. Reason? LM drawn out development in order to keep money pipe open. Also, some sources I have found show that Pentagon's budget is mainly taken up by money required to pay corporations – which then do their job only partially, and charge Pentagon far more than their job would be worth had they done it as they told they'll do it. Unfortunately, I can't find it.

Public schools have subpar results beacouse they are underfunded compared to private ones.
It rewards effort and work,
... as well as lies, theft and few other things.
Many "high-tech" innovations which don't work.
Except that there were many things which did work, and only needed some perfecting. Like wireless energy transfer. Which wasn't employed beacouse Morgan decided it wasn't economical – Tesla's chinging current has just started making profit. However, that is one of rare examples where capitalism might have done good – given controversy over cellphones, I'm not sure how healthy that kind of power transfer would have been. He also made a way to transfer power throught the ground. Nonprofitable, Morgan said.
Your choice, assuming it was pratical you still have the same problem. Someone has to either provide you hydrogen or the power for you to manufacture your own. Either way you need a Corporation.
Which would preferably be owned by state. But no independant corporations want to research it, beacouse they are making too much money out of petrol.
Again it is your choice. Over all I find horses smelly, filthy animals and much prefer a car with longer range, lesser maintnence and is cleaner, cars don't drop "leavings" in the city street, than a four legged creature.
Car is also smelly, filthy "animal" whose "shit" has long-term damage on health of people, and only gives people worries. Actually, between horses and cars, bicycles would be best choice.
That is your opinion I suppose and you are entitled to it. I however choose to look at it as budding Capitalists making the initial inroads for a more prosperous future they'd never have without those factories paying them far more than they could make without said factories. At which point we scam them with cheap products from some other two bit sink hole and the cycle begans anew. :)
I saw some interviews. These people were far happier and richer when they were living from their land; but government, in order to make foreign corporations come there, took the land from them and forced them to work for corporations.
Well that certainly isn't a condemation of Capitalism for making its people productive, better then squashing it like the Soviets, and I would say that is a case for spreading it to those other blighted parts of the globe so they too can grow more food then they could possibly eat.
So they can grow more food? They can't grow more food precisely due to these same corporations, beacouse they work non-stop to earn barely enough to feed themselves. And their corporate overlords are only concerned about profit. Imperialism, colonialism and slavery in their newest outfits.
Admiral Breetai wrote:the mere fact that socialism and communism have historically provided a base for such darker aspects of human desire..to go absolutely ape shit and run wild will also be similarly ignored
And corporatism did not? Hitler was corporatist, and was supplied by Western corporations even throught all of WW2 (by Ford, for example). They even paid for his election campaign.
with the intent to make a profit of course 
Making profit isn't problem. Problemis when making profit by any means necessary becomes all that matters.
it does exist but you'll find it's when the Capitalist get in bed with the Governments and usually you'll find some paper socialist mouth piece blaring while reaping the benefits 
In West, corporations control governments. In East, depends.
if it wasn't for the US and it's evil privatized food and grain cartels North Korea would have recently suffered hundreds of thousands of casualties from starvation - this is as recent as six months ago 
Add China to the list. But I doubt that US would have done any worse in socialistic system (socialism only has one lack – it fails to take human stupidity into account. That's why Communism was such faliure. But Scandinav countries, Australia and Canada re socialistic countries, proving that it can work).
any attempt by the government to stop this should be met by violent and subversive means 
Government does what corporations tell it to do.
this made me laugh though they probably have more to fear of me than you..I'm of the opinion that the state should one day be abolished entirely
And open way for unchecked destruction by capitalists of everything that defines humans as something other than animals?
mojo wrote:and yet 90% claim to believe in the christian god and that they will go to heaven. THROUGH WORKS, for fuck's sake. that they will go to heaven because they are a good person, rather than through the sacrifice of christ, which if you think about it, is fucking hilarious considering that belief in entering heaven through works rather than through the blood of christ shows an ABSOLUTE lack of knowledge of even the most basic tenets of the religion.
If you don't want work, then you don't have to eat and you won't go to the heaven. But problem is now that so many people want to work, but can't.
General Donner wrote:How can we be certain that good atheists are not going to Hell? Theologically speaking, that appears rather shaky. I might point to such passages as Revelation 21:8 to the contrary.

You are (or so I believe, at least) correct that a true believer will attempt to refrain from every kind of sin. In the Bible Paul writes to the Romans that they shouldn't continue in sin, even though they're under grace. (Especially because of that, in fact.) But that's only a natural consequence of true faith, as you also write. Faith produces good works. The works themselves aren't worth anything with regards to salvation, however, though they do make life on this Earth a little better.
Let's just say that it seems illogical to me. As it is stated in Old Testament, "God looks what is in the heart". One of main points of Bible is that all that is good comes from God; therefore, if you do good things, beacouse you want to help people, that means that you have accepted God in some way – even thought you might continue to believe that there is no God. And if you have accepted God, you have accepted salvation. It is far easier if you believe in God, beacouse it gives you strong support; but it's not required not to end up in a (state of) Hell.

Now, faith certainly does count for something. But I don't believe that "no faith = hell". That simply doesn't fit. Sinners who refuse to repent for their sins are actively separating themselves from God; and as such, cannot expect any mercy. But atheists who do good are acknowledging God, in heart, if not in mind.

I read the exact opposite in the passage. Atheists, in modern society, are overwhelmingly people who haveknowingly rejected Christ -- I really don't think I'm exaggerating if I say, you would've had to have lived your whole life under a rock to be unaware of Christianity, at least in the Western world. Thus they know full well what God expects of us, yet fail to believe in it. Logically, then -- as you also conclude -- they will be more heavily punished than, say, tribesmen in Africa who never heard God's Word.
That they would. But my point still stands. These tribesmen never heard about God, and so never had any chance to embrace him. Atheists are being told about God, but they don't believe, beacouse they can't see, can't touch. But at least they are honest about it; besides, their atheism is partially consequence of life they had – you don't come to choose your parents. But false Christians pretend to accept God and then throw Him away – meaning that, aside from not accepting Him, they also commit a sin of lie; also, they obviously had a chance to meet Him, since they wouldn't pretend to be accepting Him; but they refused the chance purposefully.

Besides, there is moral law that God put into every one of us. If you accept that law, you have, to some extent, accepted God.
But I personally, at least, think you're on to something in seeing a modern application in it, as well.
That's why I put it here:
"The servant who knows what his master wants him to do, but does not get himself ready and do it, will be punished with a heavy whipping. But the servant who does not know what his master wants, and yet does something for which he deserves a whipping, will be punished with a light whipping.
First servant is a believer. Second one is atheist – beacouse, as I said, most people are atheists beacouse they did not have true chance to meet God. So theist knows exactly what his Lord and Father wants from him. Atheist can guess, based on conscience, but it won't be as precise, beacouse conscience may be altered by the surrounding. So it is only logical that atheist will get a bigger leeway – theist might get into Heaven easier than atheist, but it will also be easier for him to end up in Hell.
As for Hitler, notably, he was baptized, lived and died in the Roman Catholic Church. So he wouldn't need any converting from a Catholic perspective. Though most likely repentance and confession to a priest. (And maybe anointment? I'm not fully up to date on all Catholic rituals.)
If you don't reject your bad deeds in the heart (that s, acknowledge they were bad), listing them all to the priest during ritual of confession will not clear you from them – it will only add lying to the list, beacouse you are knowingly lying priest, yourself and the God.

Only thing that matters if wether you have trully decided to repent. If you did, you have to do what preist says you to do so as not to lie to him. If you didn't, then all of it will be worthless regardless.

As for anointment, it isn't used for confession; it is used for sacraments of Confirmation and of Anointing of the Sick.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:38 pm

What I notice in this thread is how black or white people's opinions seem to be...

@sonofccn, pure, unrestrained Capitalism is in grand part responsible for the poor economic state of the US, and the rest of the Capitsalist world, and the main reason why our Capitalist jobs are being transferred to communist countries, like China...
China's Human rights charts is non-existant, wages are lower than the minimum humane wage should be, kids are forced to work for the Capitalist world to continue...

Am I a Capitalist ?
Hell yes, humans work best when motivated, and in such a materialist society, and even moreso, in such a leisure society, having a greater financial power means more leisure time, less worries for food or a roof over my head, etc, etc...
But I like Canada's take on Capitalism, where the poor and unlucky are taken care of, where there are rules Capitalists must follow that ensures a greater number of people actually have a chance at getting their share of the wealth and ressources that could be used by many arenot squandered, where even someone born in a poor family who could not afford schooling if it was privatized can now go to school and improve his lot in life...

As for religion, I like the basic message of Catholicism, but not the way the message is spread, or the people spreading it...

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:58 pm

Well, what I am against is unrestricted capitalism. I'm socialist, but I personally think of Canada, Scandinavian countries and Australia as of socialistic countries, that should tell you something. ;-)

Yes, I don't like corporations, but that's primarly due to crap I see unchecked corporations doing, and not only here in Croatia.

EDIT:
But I like Canada's take on Capitalism, where the poor and unlucky are taken care of, where there are rules Capitalists must follow that ensures a greater number of people actually have a chance at getting their share of the wealth and ressources that could be used by many arenot squandered, where even someone born in a poor family who could not afford schooling if it was privatized can now go to school and improve his lot in life...
And that's what all this (at least part about corporations) is about. Free market doctrine is just crappy - it is nothing but a law of jungle. State intervention is a must when dealing with capitalism. Corporatism is as "good" as totalitarism, if you ask me.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:29 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I agree. But only when people will be mature enough not to mean anarchy and law of the jungle. Which means each individual becoming super sentient and being able, on a whim, to unite with brothers and sisters anytime when a danger is sensed.
However, the reality about the populace is that nothing as such will ever happen. You still need a ruling system of some sort.
we hardly need super sentience for this: Also you said the US produces too much food and meat? what the heck is that? Why?


Picard wrote:And seeing what is happening here, and what is happening in the US, little governmental control over capitalists is exactly what we need. Except that government will have to find a way to stop being controlled by capitalists before that.]
BAHAHA Fanie mea and Freddie Mac are socialist projects and they are a huge part of what caused that

[
Picard wrote:Except when he sells them shitty bread, and they can't do anything beacouse either there is no other baker, or all other bakers are same.
or y'know a few of them can pool their resources and make their own damn bread and sell it
Picard wrote: But problem in capitalism is that it sells you shitty product, and lies to you about it. Products are being sold in Europe and US several times more expensive than they should be given costs of their production, even when you account for all taxes and everything. Yet workers get only enough so as not to drop dead. For example, Nike (also Adidas, Puma or any other multinational shoe-making corporation) pays its workers only few cents per hour (all of its factories are abroad, in Indonesia, China, etc.).. In that one hour, worker can make 2 to 4 pairs of shoes, which are then sold in the US and Europe at hundred dollars per pair at least. And given that average pay is much less than what is required to secure most basic of needs for entire family, entire family is forced to work. Meaning that children can't get education, and are forced to live in same shithole and same conditions as their parents – so will be their children, children of those children, and so on. Until something changes. When or how will that happen, only God knows.
gotta love the parroting the party line here



.
Picard wrote: Which would preferably be owned by state. But no independant corporations want to research it, beacouse they are making too much money out of petrol.
owned by the state lawl so corrupt politicians union thugs organized crime and all that good shit can control what replaces oil

Picard wrote: Car is also smelly, filthy "animal" whose "shit" has long-term damage on health of people, and only gives people worries. Actually, between horses and cars, bicycles would be best choice.
let's move backward instead of forward

Picard wrote: So they can grow more food? They can't grow more food precisely due to these same corporations, beacouse they work non-stop to earn barely enough to feed themselves. And their corporate overlords are only concerned about profit. Imperialism, colonialism and slavery in their newest outfits.
yeah you know what? This is offensive I'm actually from a country that once had a few of those evil corporate sweat shops..and guess what? They didn't barely make enough to feed themselves they got paid..a bit more than the ones taking a government check or working for a mom and pop store..working for nike? Yeah they fed themselves put their kids through college

those same people? because leftists start making a fuss lost those jobs and those who aren't homeless or on drugs had to immigrate to the US or Canada or any other place they could.

Picard wrote: And corporatism did not? Hitler was corporatist, and was supplied by Western corporations even throught all of WW2 (by Ford, for example). They even paid for his election campaign.
Hitler was a god damn national socialist he may have used those people to get to the top but everything belonged to the pure German people
Picard wrote:In West, corporations control governments. In East, depends.
no they don't they should totally but no


Picard wrote:]Add China to the list. But I doubt that US would have done any worse in socialistic system (socialism only has one lack – it fails to take human stupidity into account. That's why Communism was such faliure. But Scandinav countries, Australia and Canada re socialistic countries, proving that it can work).
sure bring up western europe when you spend thousands of years raping and pillaging everything of course you can afford to subsidize other your neighbors for awhile anyways

the big three need to cut the rest of the EU loose and let 'em all collapse on themselves though
Picard wrote:
Government does what corporations tell it to do.
bullshit
Picard wrote: And open way for unchecked destruction by capitalists of everything that defines humans as something other than animals?
maybe in your fantasy world in the real world it'd open the flood gates for an age of unrestrained expansion and exploitation of the planet the solar system and the stars.

humanity could use a little of giving into it's own baser instincts in a measured and restrained way

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:34 am

I'm moving this thread over to the "Other" forum.
-Mike

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:25 pm

AdmiralBreetai wrote:we hardly need super sentience for this: Also you said the US produces too much food and meat? what the heck is that? Why?
US actually produces far more food than it needs - US food is only reason why Chinese can support their own population, and money US gets from that food is only reason why it hasn't been destroyed by its own wars and a corporatistic sh**storm.
BAHAHA Fanie mea and Freddie Mac are socialist projects and they are a huge part of what caused that
And corporations stealing money from the state, selling it crappy products at inflated cost, and cheating, stealing and causing mayhem in general.

Plus private companies happily helped Freddie Mac do it. Fact is, private corporations fuck up, and government takes the blame, more often than the companies. And opposite almost never happens.

Besides, US Government is literally owned by private corporations. Why you think it would otherwise stomp so hard on any attempts to put regulations on corporatistic power?
or y'know a few of them can pool their resources and make their own damn bread and sell it
Which works in a village. But there you don't have corporatistic-run state which will declare you a criminal for "not allowing free market competition".
gotta love the parroting the party line here
These are cold facts, which I found in several independant sources. It's the fact. And if you don't like it... not my problem.

Besides, you'd be surprised what you can discover with little critical thinking and research of your own.
owned by the state lawl so corrupt politicians union thugs organized crime and all that good shit can control what replaces oil
And politicians are controlled by capitalists; you know where they get money for their election campaigns? And there is no true control over companies, even "public" ones (and especially oil ones, like Shell).

Althought, it looks like states are becoming sensible:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 90852.html
Unfortunately, my own state is just in process of hard privatization - out of 10 largest bank, only one is state owned, all others are in hands of foreign privateers.

Thought, US seems to continue self-privatization as hard as always. Assuming there is something left to be privatized.

And US is in economical crisis. Had it not been for China, US' economy would have collapsed long ago. And private corporations are main opponents of lessening military expenditure, beacouse they get majority of cake, throught drawn-out, costly and ineffective development programs (refer to the F22 program for that).

So much about free market.
yeah you know what? This is offensive I'm actually from a country that once had a few of those evil corporate sweat shops..and guess what? They didn't barely make enough to feed themselves they got paid..a bit more than the ones taking a government check or working for a mom and pop store..working for nike? Yeah they fed themselves put their kids through college

those same people? because leftists start making a fuss lost those jobs and those who aren't homeless or on drugs had to immigrate to the US or Canada or any other place they could.
Back in time of socialistic capitalism, I guess. And there is such thing as soclialistic capitalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Oh, and this:
Fascism's theory of economic corporatism involved management of sectors of the economy by government or privately controlled organizations (corporations). Each trade union or employer corporation would, theoretically, represent its professional concerns, especially by negotiation of labor contracts and the like. This method, it was theorized, could result in harmony amongst social classes.[30] Authors have noted, however, that de facto economic corporatism was also used to reduce opposition and reward political loyalty.[31]

In Italy from 1922 until 1943, corporatism became influential amongst Italian nationalists led by Benito Mussolini. The Charter of Carnaro gained much popularity as the prototype of a 'corporative state', having displayed much within its tenets as a guild system combining the concepts of autonomy and authority in a special synthesis. This appealed to Hegelian thinkers who were seeking a new alternative to popular socialism and syndicalism which was also a progressive system of governing labor and still a new way of relating to political governance. Alfredo Rocco spoke of a corporative state and declared corporatist ideology in detail. Rocco would later become a member of the Italian Fascist regime Fascismo.[32]

Italian Fascism involved a corporatist political system in which economy was collectively managed by employers, workers and state officials by formal mechanisms at the national level.[33] This non-elected form of state officializing of every interest into the state was professed to reduce the marginalization of singular interests (as would allegedly happen by the unilateral end condition inherent in the democratic voting process). Corporatism would instead better recognize or 'incorporate' every divergent interest into the state organically, according to its supporters, thus being the inspiration for their use of the term totalitarian, perceivable to them as not meaning a coercive system but described distinctly as without coercion in the 1932 Doctrine of Fascism as thus:
So I was right. Italy was a corporatistic state during WW2.

And I don't care if that is offensive. I have no intention to offend anyone, but I won't shut up or start negating what I know due to that.

As for your post, just take a look and South-East Asia.
Hitler was a god damn national socialist he may have used those people to get to the top but everything belonged to the pure German people
He was put in power and supplied by Western corporations. All measures he undertook were written by West, in order for him to destroy Communism in USSR, so that corporatism could take over.

Besides, true nationalism and true socialism are, alongside Catholic church, main defenders of human dignity in face of corporatistic capitalism.
no they don't they should totally but no
They do. And why you think it's good? Corporations care about profit, and profit only. Corporations turn feral, government takes blame, and corporations still make money.
the big three need to cut the rest of the EU loose and let 'em all collapse on themselves though
Yeah, and let corporations feed off of them. Besides, Germany is only of the "big three" helping anyone. Other two members of trio just look to make profit for their corporations.

Greece was sucked dry by foreign corporations as much as by their own corporations and unresponsible government. Governments are run by people, and corporations are run by people. In this heavily materialistic world, you expect people will be reasonable?

Only thing that can save Greece is reduced import and increased export. But problem is that Greece has NO PRODUCTIVE SECTOR AT ALL. Only thing it has is tertiary sector - and that is main reason it is in trouble now. I still hold some hope for Croatia, beacouse we have shipyards (althought being systematically destroyed by government in order to facilitate privatization plan) and military hardware factory of Djuro Djakovic; HSProdukt is private company, but is at least not owned by any foreign company, which would be a disaster - it would be sucked dry and left to rot.
bullshit
Really? Then why US military is stealing Iraq's oil? Why US forced many countries to privatize their companies? Why it supported overthrow of Salvador Allende?
maybe in your fantasy world
I don't know what world you live in, but I don't live in fantasy world.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:00 pm

Oh, and found this nice thing about "turn other cheek":

That whole "turn the other cheek" thing? "Backhanding" someone (or striking them with the back of your hand) was only done to one's inferiors, as a means of humiliating and devaluing that person. Because using the left hand was socially "taboo", the right hand was always used for this purpose. If a person who had just been backhanded were to turn the other cheek (i.e. turn his head so that the other cheek faced his opponent), the aggressor would be forced to hit him with the front of his hand, or his fist—the way that only equals fought. It told the person abusing you, "I am a human being, and I refuse to be treated as your inferior—and if you're going to continue beating me, you will acknowledge that."

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:38 pm


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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:30 am

Capitalism rewards incentive and work and does not by design reward unethical behavior and indeed places moderation on such vices.
The only way to have a free market, but with barriers, is that if the barriers are represented by the people's choice to say no. It gets harder the more power and momentum is concentrated into the hands of a few.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:49 am

Picard wrote:[

US actually produces far more food than it needs - US food is only reason why Chinese can support their own population, and money US gets from that food is only reason why it hasn't been destroyed by its own wars and a corporatistic sh**storm.
and this means we should stop producing an excess amount of food? lmao hell no
Picard wrote:[And corporations stealing money from the state, selling it crappy products at inflated cost, and cheating, stealing and causing mayhem in general.
privately owned companies should steal from the state! Seriously fuck the state I don't trust any federal organization with my money..I trust the guys who
s entire existence revolves around people being able to afford their product
Picard wrote:[Plus private companies happily helped Freddie Mac do it. Fact is, private corporations fuck up, and government takes the blame, more often than the companies. And opposite almost never happens.
if the private companies did not try and compete with fanie and fredie they would not have survived
Picard wrote:[Besides, US Government is literally owned by private corporations. Why you think it would otherwise stomp so hard on any attempts to put regulations on corporatistic power?
because the US is a capitalist system and any time the federal government regulates anything it's usually disastrous
Picard wrote:[
Which works in a village. But there you don't have corporatistic-run state which will declare you a criminal for "not allowing free market competition".
now that's ignorance as all hell. what they are doing is free market it benefits no one to stop them hell the more competition out there the more those 'underhanded capitalists' as you put them can make a fucking fortune

or haven't you heard of pricing wars?

Picard wrote:[
These are cold facts, which I found in several independant sources. It's the fact. And if you don't like it... not my problem.
your vomitting up the same bullshit every paper socialist who can afford a damn computer uses to try and 'contest' the other side
Picard wrote:[
Besides, you'd be surprised what you can discover with little critical thinking and research of your own.
really? then what's your excuse?
Picard wrote:[
And politicians are controlled by capitalists; you know where they get money for their election campaigns? And there is no true control over companies, even "public" ones (and especially oil ones, like Shell).
while certainly allot of politicians are beholden to companies or lobbyiest...sitting here and claiming the unions through organized crime ties don't exert an enormous and very negative amount of authority on the American political system is either some one engaging in a bold face lie or has no concept of American politics
Picard wrote:[
Althought, it looks like states are becoming sensible:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 90852.html
Unfortunately, my own state is just in process of hard privatization - out of 10 largest bank, only one is state owned, all others are in hands of foreign privateers.
people should be burning that one to the ground

[
Picard wrote:[Thought, US seems to continue self-privatization as hard as always. Assuming there is something left to be privatized.
and people wonder why it;s the strongest country around lol
Picard wrote:[And US is in economical crisis. Had it not been for China, US' economy would have collapsed long ago. And private corporations are main opponents of lessening military expenditure, beacouse they get majority of cake, throught drawn-out, costly and ineffective development programs (refer to the F22 program for that).
thinking China could survive with out the US EL OH EL man
Picard wrote:[
Back in time of socialistic capitalism, I guess. And there is such thing as soclialistic capitalism:
it sucks
Picard wrote:[Oh, and this:
Fascism's theory of economic corporatism involved management of sectors of the economy by government or privately controlled organizations (corporations). Each trade union or employer corporation would, theoretically, represent its professional concerns, especially by negotiation of labor contracts and the like. This method, it was theorized, could result in harmony amongst social classes.[30] Authors have noted, however, that de facto economic corporatism was also used to reduce opposition and reward political loyalty.[31]

In Italy from 1922 until 1943, corporatism became influential amongst Italian nationalists led by Benito Mussolini. The Charter of Carnaro gained much popularity as the prototype of a 'corporative state', having displayed much within its tenets as a guild system combining the concepts of autonomy and authority in a special synthesis. This appealed to Hegelian thinkers who were seeking a new alternative to popular socialism and syndicalism which was also a progressive system of governing labor and still a new way of relating to political governance. Alfredo Rocco spoke of a corporative state and declared corporatist ideology in detail. Rocco would later become a member of the Italian Fascist regime Fascismo.[32]

Italian Fascism involved a corporatist political system in which economy was collectively managed by employers, workers and state officials by formal mechanisms at the national level.[33] This non-elected form of state officializing of every interest into the state was professed to reduce the marginalization of singular interests (as would allegedly happen by the unilateral end condition inherent in the democratic voting process). Corporatism would instead better recognize or 'incorporate' every divergent interest into the state organically, according to its supporters, thus being the inspiration for their use of the term totalitarian, perceivable to them as not meaning a coercive system but described distinctly as without coercion in the 1932 Doctrine of Fascism as thus:
So I was right. Italy was a corporatistic state during WW2.
so what does Italy have to do with Nazi Germany again? Last I checked Hitler came to pretty much hate those people for you know failing at every possible turn
Picard wrote:[
As for your post, just take a look and South-East Asia
.

...if you seriously think they aren't benefiting from building your PC and shoes your crazy
Picard wrote:[

He was put in power and supplied by Western corporations. All measures he undertook were written by West, in order for him to destroy Communism in USSR, so that corporatism could take over
.

he was put in power by the German people his entire goal was to unite the world under Aryan rule his entire gimmick was prosperity for the German people while Germans had the right to own their own businesses it was very clear that any non German asset was seized by the state and distributed by the state

also what you just posted was batshit insane I mean in a "I wear tin foil hats and think 9/11 was an inside job and aliens crashed at Roswell" crazy
Picard wrote:[
Besides, true nationalism and true socialism are, alongside Catholic church, main defenders of human dignity in face of corporatistic capitalism.
....
Picard wrote:[
They do. And why you think it's good? Corporations care about profit, and profit only. Corporations turn feral, government takes blame, and corporations still make money.
corporations care about profit and profit only! DOI!! here's an interesting question who stands to gain from a feudalistic society where the masses stay poor and oppressed and only a few select elites can rise into positions of power?

not fucking capitalists

Picard wrote:[
Yeah, and let corporations feed off of them.
it's a socialist cesspool there's nothing to feed off of the carcass has been picked dry by criminals and idealogical fanatics and the state
Picard wrote:[
Besides, Germany is only of the "big three" helping anyone. Other two members of trio just look to make profit for their corporations.
how silly of Germany
Picard wrote:[
Greece was sucked dry by foreign corporations as much as by their own corporations and unresponsible government. Governments are run by people, and corporations are run by people. In this heavily materialistic world, you expect people will be reasonable?
I expect the people who can loose everything from incompetence and mismanagement and corruption to behave reasonable.

I trust the group incharge of an entire nation with the resources of an entire nation and protected by an army..and 'elected into office by the people" to behave like ravenous wolves. The government usually does exactly this so far I haven't been proven wrong
Picard wrote:[Only thing that can save Greece is reduced import and increased export. But problem is that Greece has NO PRODUCTIVE SECTOR AT ALL. Only thing it has is tertiary sector - and that is main reason it is in trouble now.
so because the Greek people are geographically unlucky the rest of Europe should pay for them? fuck that noise
Picard wrote:[
Really? Then why US military is stealing Iraq's oil?
if it is that's awesome we totally should plunder that country dry to make up for the expense of the war.
Picard wrote:[
Why US forced many countries to privatize their companies?
they privatize to survive in a world dominating by a massive industrial and financial giant. most of those nations are better for it.
Picard wrote:[
Why it supported overthrow of Salvador Allende?
because Richard Nixon made a few really bad decisions and that happened to be one of them?
Picard wrote:[
I don't know what world you live in, but I don't live in fantasy world.
hoooohhhoo..man

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Khas » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:57 am

Man, all we need now is for PunkMaister and Narsil to join this debate, and things would REALLY get interesting. Haven't seen either of them in some time though, so it seems unlikely.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:18 pm

http://everything2.com/title/Do+all+sol ... +hell%253F
Admiral Breetai wrote:and this means we should stop producing an excess amount of food? lmao hell no 
Bravo for completely missing the point. That food is only reason US isn't bankrupt yet.
privately owned companies should steal from the state! Seriously fuck the state I don't trust any federal organization with my money..I trust the guys whos entire existence revolves around people being able to afford their product 
You know what is problem with your equation?

Capitalists want to profit on products as much as possible. This includes lowering costs of production, and raising price of product. There are two options:

1) Product is domestically produced. But capitalist being capitalist, he wants to sell more products than competition. How will he achieve that? By lowering prices. He can only do that by paying his workers less. He also wants to earn as much as possible, so he keeps prices as high as concurention allows him to. But, as everyone is doing it, everybody's standard of living falls due to rising costs and lowering of the income. And when people cease to be capable of buying products, you get crisis, and system stops. It is far less painful for people and government if government is to intervene and restart the cycle by some spending etc. (assuming corporations don't continue eating money without responsibility) and put some laws in place.

2) Product is produced in displaced factories in third world. There, capitalists use underpaid workforce, which barely manages to earn for living by entire family working, to produce low-cost low-quality products, which are then sold at about fifty times the cost in Angloamerica and Europe. However, this means that people he hopes will buy his products can't afford them as they are steadily losing jobs. State can't help either, beacouse it depends on people being able to pay taxes, and it doesn't have any production in first place, beacouse all factories went overseas, and its tax base has been shattered by high unemployment. What's next? Crisis. System falls apart, you get crisis, and states have to bail themselves out of crap they ended in thanks to the capitalists.
because the US is a capitalist system and any time the federal government regulates anything it's usually disastrous 
And even more so when it doesn't. US Government regulates nothing. Federal government is literally owned by cororations, and all measures taken in last 30 years were to help corporations. Fact is, US Government is right now mostly busy trying to bail out corporations. So called socialists? Federal Government is still corporatistic.

Reason why Iraq is such a suckhole? Instead of letting people elect new Iraqi government, US named it, in order to privatize country and give its corporations a free reign. Chaos is how Iraquis tried (and failed) to defend themselves from corporatism.
now that's ignorance as all hell. what they are doing is free market it benefits no one to stop them hell the more competition out there the more those 'underhanded capitalists' as you put them can make a fucking fortune 

or haven't you heard of pricing wars?
I did. Lower prices (by underpaying your workers, along other things), destroy concurention, and then rise prices to the sky. Lidl would have done it in Croatia if it weren't for the "stupid government". They did sell most things to foreign corporations, under orders from USA and EU, but they were still clever enough to impose taxes on Lidl. However, that will end when we enter fu**ing European Union.
your vomitting up the same bullshit every paper socialist who can afford a damn computer uses to try and 'contest' the other side
Too lazy to use some critical thinking, are you?
really? then what's your excuse? 
My excuse is that I need no excuse. I did research, I thought thoroughly, and I arrived at conclusions I did. It's not my problem that it conflicts with your ideology.
while certainly allot of politicians are beholden to companies or lobbyiest...sitting here and claiming the unions through organized crime ties don't exert an enormous and very negative amount of authority on the American political system is either some one engaging in a bold face lie or has no concept of American politics 
Only unions that influence government are corporatistic unions. I know how US political system works, I know how Croatian political system works, and both are set up in such way to keep true power away from populace while lying to them that they can decide something. If you want to see democracy, look at Switzerland. US system leaves a lot of room for corprations to control government, as well as Croatian one.

If you don't know what I'm talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

Oh, and do you know what "spinning" is?
people should be burning that one to the ground 
People here may have gotten stupid from being lied to constantly, but they aren't that stupid, to burn only free bank that is still in Croatian ownership.
and people wonder why it;s the strongest country around lol
Strongest country?Moment China stops giving US money, US will be destroyed. And Chinese will start starving by hundreds of millions, which is why China is willing to continue bailling out US. When looked at realistically, US' economy is weaker than Russian or German one. However, these holes aren't readily apparent, mostly thanks to China keeping US economy from crumbling, beacouse it needs US crops, and it can also sell products to the US.

If you are interested to get more info:
http://www.rense.com/general84/econn.htm

http://blog.ml-implode.com/2011/08/crum ... s-economy/

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finan ... economy-0/

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finan ... weapons-0/

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finan ... n_union-0/

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/ ... 61520.html

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/10 ... ing-apart/

http://www.mercenarytrader.com/2011/10/ ... tightrope/

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/column ... s_worse-0/

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/column ... rogance-0/
US won't attack Iran as long as current wars are using up sufficient arms deliveries to keep weapons industry fat and fed

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/ ... 60774.html

http://economyincrisis.org/content/majo ... ted-states

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2008/01/w ... onomy.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _14995070/
- most of problems listed under "partial list" are directly tied to corporations and free trade philosophy

US is being ruined by paying corporations to do job they don't do in the end or do it badly (Lockheed Martin's intentionally drawn-out over-priced development of F-22 Raptor being one example... wonder why USAF could only afford 185 birds? And now they have to be upgraded due to outdated electronics, have problems with canopies and skin, etc.) and by its extremely costly missions of stealing oil from Iraq, and, now, Lybia, as well as occupation of Afghanistan to deny Chinese access to the Middle East oil reserves.

Meanwhile, Germany and China are only two remaining economic superpowers, and even they can't go one without another, and are both hit by crisis. US is a military superpower, but at too high a cost.
thinking China could survive with out the US EL OH EL man
Exactly as I said. Without US, China is going to starve. Literally. Without China, US economy will crumble. So it is a MAD scenario, and that is why China is keeping US econom alive. Even thought it has to feed lots of hungry ammoral corporations in the process.
it sucks
If you want to know what sucks, look at links I provided above.
so what does Italy have to do with Nazi Germany again? Last I checked Hitler came to pretty much hate those people for you know failing at every possible turn
Ford made trucks for Hitler. However, he was good to his workers so I'm liable to forgive him.

However, Great Britain, France and US all had interests in destroying communism in Russia, opening it up for their products, as well as reducing threat of revolution (and they were right; they were forced to implement socialistic system after WW2 exactly due to that).

And this:
Wikipedia wrote:Fascists believe that nations and races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy,vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak.[6] Fascist governments forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[7]
Sounds familiar? Corporatism.

Plus:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fasci ... er_US.html
http://www.karenlyster.com/hitler.html
http://rationalrevolution.net/war/ameri ... _europ.htm
http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/b ... ter_06.htm
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/governm ... art-1.html
...if you seriously think they aren't benefiting from building your PC and shoes your crazy 
Benefiting? Many of them would have returned to farming, had not corporatistic-controlled government taken their land (and built golf terrains on it). Yes, I am happy for money they make from work. But they should make far more of it. Of money I, or you, or anyone else, pays when buying such shoes, less than 2% goes to the worker who made them (I don't remember exact values).
he was put in power by the German people his entire goal was to unite the world under Aryan rule his entire gimmick was prosperity for the German people while Germans had the right to own their own businesses it was very clear that any non German asset was seized by the state and distributed by the state
And where did money for his election campaign come from? Western corporations.
also what you just posted was batshit insane I mean in a "I wear tin foil hats and think 9/11 was an inside job and aliens crashed at Roswell" crazy 
Aliens at Roswell? I dunno. Probably just governmental trick to keep people busy with stupid things to prevent them from attacking corporatistic system. And 9/11 was and inside job.
When you look at it, from position of government and corporatists, it was just perfect – like a blessing fallen from the sky. They wanted to secure Middle Eastern oil; they already secured subservience of Saudi Arabia, but Iraq was defiant. In 1991, they defended Kuvait's oil from Iraq; but corporations wanted Iraqi oil, too. USSR also fell apart back then.
http://www.rense.com/general82/911ins.htm
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/
http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/governm ... intro.html
corporations care about profit and profit only! DOI!! here's an interesting question who stands to gain from a feudalistic society where the masses stay poor and oppressed and only a few select elites can rise into positions of power?

not fucking capitalists 
Feudalists were primitive versions of capitalists.
it's a socialist cesspool there's nothing to feed off of the carcass has been picked dry by criminals and idealogical fanatics and the corporations
Fixed it for you.
how silly of Germany
Silly? They don't look it throught corporatistic Friedman's prism. Have you heard of a proverb that "You are in danger when your neigbour's house is burning"? Silly, it might be. But at least it's not idiotic like UK's, France's or WWB's position on it.
I expect the people who can loose everything from incompetence and mismanagement and corruption to behave reasonable.

I trust the group incharge of an entire nation with the resources of an entire nation and protected by an army..and 'elected into office by the people" to behave like ravenous wolves. The government usually does exactly this so far I haven't been proven wrong 
Yes, government does it. But unlike corporations, government doesn't have anyone else to hide behind (unless it succedes in faking terrorist assaults).
so because the Greek people are geographically unlucky the rest of Europe should pay for them? fuck that noise 
No, but beacouse they had not been allowed to develop primary and secondary sectors. ONLY REASON why Croatia isn't in position of Greece are our shipyards and military industry as well as few food-producing companies. However, unlike US, Croatia still enjoys some control over its companies, even privately-owned ones.

But now we have president that is openly trying to become a dictator. Oh, and he's a Chetnik. And a corporatist.
if it is that's awesome we totally should plunder that country dry to make up for the expense of the war. 
Oh, trust me, US corporations already stole more than enough from Iraq to make up for that. But US government won't get much from it.
they privatize to survive in a world dominating by a massive industrial and financial giant. most of those nations are better for it.
You mean, their elite is better off. Besides, national =/= incompetent. Croatian shipyards were quite successfull until deliberately destroyed; and Djuro Djakovic is state-owned corporation, and is one of most successfull corporations in Croatia. INA counted too, until government sold a lot of it to MOL, under pressure from EU.
because Richard Nixon made a few really bad decisions and that happened to be one of them?
No, beacouse Allende threw out corporations. And it isn't only corporation-establishing action US undertook. Panama, for example.

And:
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/governm ... art-2.html

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