THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

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sonofccn
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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:52 pm

Khas wrote:Actually, Hitler was just right of center.
I would find such a statement dubious. The Nazi party rose to power bleeping against corporate greed as much as marxist rethoric, wanted to shorten work hours and increase pay, regulate buisness down to the manner in which you can boil lobsters, they decried department stores etc.
And Ford was a Nazi sympathizer.
I didn't deny he had leanings towards Nazism, Picard stated Ford supported Hitler during WW2 which would be treason.
And it was Standard Oil that sold oil to Nazi Germany, because they were "in the business of making money".
Again typing that into google I can't get anything about them selling it to them during wartime. All the stuff I saw in my quick search was either before the war or even before Nazi party had risen to power.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:32 pm

sonofccn wrote:Actually seeing what is happening here in the US makes we demand less Goverment intrusion and less sweetheart deals and "too big to fail" bailouts.
Government is bailing out corporations, which are doing nothing to help situation change. That is the problem.
Lower wages too much and they all go work someplace else. Raise prices and your products don't sell. Reducing number of workers while cutting pay will likely see you with no workers in a very short time.
Which is why all factories are going to India, China and Indonesia.
They can always complain and they can always take their "product" ie their service someplace else if they feel they are being cheated. That is the free market system.
And where that "someplace else" would be? In Heaven?
As to the five people on the street if you are offering a raw deal its still a raw deal, the entire country can be out of work but if you are paying a penny a year for 23/7 hours of work you won't get many takers.
No, beacouse under conditions you outlined it would be a death sentence. But take a look at conditions in factories in Indonesia, etc. Like German concentration camp / Soviet gulag crossovers.
Then go into buisness as your own baker, capture the market and become a bread tycoon! :) I mean if it is that bad it should be easy as pie to take them out unless they've hamstrung you with goverment regulations.
You mean, bought the government.
Well if it is so "shitty" to use your colorful phrasing it doesn't matter how good you lie people wouldn't buy it. I mean you can't sell excrement as honey I don't care how much you hawk it.
Really? And what about crap they put into products and we even don't know about it? And that crap is far more dangerous than having literal shit inside.
That would be the value of the time. People are willing to pay X for a product for whatever reason. 
Value of time? For who? Capitalist who takes 90 % of profit, while simply sitting and boring himself 90 % of time?
Workers are paid for their work, building things on an assembly line is not rocket science and requires skills that are in high supply ergo has a relative low value. And these workers are free to go take another job which pays their skills at a higher rate should any come up.
And none will, beacouse all corporations struggle to keep wages as low as possible.
Yes the Owner who provides the resources to work with, working space, tools, and market to sell the product afterwards is rewarded. As to the worker they were already rewarded for their efforts by being paid, work they took because they deemed it worth the time and effort they put into it. Or to put it more simply without that particular worker Nike would continue to function without hitch or notice but conversely without Nike the worker likely could not continue manufactuing shoes much less sell them for hundreds of dollars.
And 1-10 dollar increase would really hurt them? I mean, most of these shoes cost 100+ dollars. Is there big difference between paying, say, 100 and 105 dollars for shoes? (I'm just translating prices here into Dollars, I don't know exact values in US).
Which is worse than no job and no one is paid?
And you know why they wouldn't get work? Corporations took their land, and forced them to work these shitty jobs. FORCED them. You'd say it's honest if, for example, someone was to destroy your house and give you cheap tent as a compensation?
Actually it should encourage saving and thriftness who will work hard so that their children don't, who will go to school get better jobs so their children will have to work even less so their children can go to college who will refuse to work and instead protest in parks about tuition. Then I guess the cycle starts anew or something. :)
Savings? From what? These people are getting minimum of pay that is required to stay alive, for God's sake. They simply don't have anything to put aside.
Okay joking aside Slavery itself has nothing to do with capitalism. Its a form of collectivism, in free market you are a willing participant who can go and stay on your decision. Slavery there is no free will, you are bound to your "master's" will.DO NOT CONFLICT IT WITH CAPITALISM


Roman Empire was a free market state, with additional heavy buerocracy. Same reasons why US and Greece are falling apart today (Greek debt is 113,4 % of GDP; US debt is 99,6 %).

Actually I'd argue Society is built around free trade and as I've stated I don't have an issue paying for services rendered. I like having streets paved, I'll pay for that. I like having a military I'll pay for that. I do not like being forced by dictate that I must pay for someone else, if I wish to be generous with my holdings or you with yours is fine but to force my hand is not being generous nor noble. Its being a thief.


So you'd completely abolish states? You know that humans are, by definition, social beings? (social animals). Do you know what social means? To help those in need. If someone doesn't have a job, find him one, or help him start his own job. If he has disability, he could work something where it won't be a disadvantage.

You've stated this. And if you wanted to go around collecting hat in hand I wouldn't have a problem but you want me to pay as a matter of course. That people are entitled to free food, medical treatment and water. Which I disagree with. People need things, people need help at times and it is noble to give selflessly in someone else's hour of need. But I am not indebted to do it nor is it the state's job to force me into compliance.

People aren't islands, "everyone for himself". That way of thinking is getting US into trouble.

Our entire society was constructed on mutual help.

Well not knowing the history of Croatian shipbuilding I wouldn't know. But I'll bite, how many ships were produced under goverment control and for how much profit compared to after privatization happened. As well defgine privatization because I don't consider crony capitalism back room deals between goverment and corporations privization since obviously they are only kept in buisness by the goverment.


Under government control... I don't know. But there were supertankers (I remember one was made for India), ordinary tankers, cargo ships, warships (including submarines)... during Homeland War, shipyard did as much for defence of country as people on front lines. You can't fight without a gun. And shipyards during that time produced and repaired heavy weapons, like artillery pieces, and similar. JNA disabled cannons they couldn't take with them, and it was due to workers in shipyards that these cannons were repaired.

And these crony back room deals are basis of free trade. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

So to prove Corporations are wasteful you link to a goverment product, ie the F-22 Raptor. All this says to me is the goverment wastes money not that the corporations are being inefficently run.


Are you...? F22 was developed and produced by Lockheed Martin. Government – that is, USAF – only issued a contract and paid bills. Which corporation then put in its pockets, while not doing job worth notice.

Here the US blows six grand per kid per annunal. For such poor results we might as well hock the entire practice, they certainly couldn't turn out worse.


Then you really are a special country.

Only reason why private schools are slightly better are smaller classes. And it's easier to get thrown out.

Besides, how much of that money is going on actual education, and how much on corporations supporting entire system (like McDonalds, who is poisoning children in many schools all over US, etc.).

No more and a lot less than the alleged alternatives.


Certainly not less.

Unless I'm mistaken you still have the square-cubed law to deal with which makes it impratical for long distance powering. However under the free market you are allowed to invest in such technology and if you can make it more affordable than the alternatives you can beat out the compitetion.


Except everyone is running for a fast profit, and no-one invests in things that are important in long run.

It isn't as far as I'm aware, its a novelty. An intersting bit of physics but impratical to our day to day affairs. 


It was a novelty in early 1900's. But Tesla did prove it can work.

Actually if it was remotely profitable to produce they'd have done it long ago. It currently isn't feasible so instead boondogle "Green corporations" wanting hand outs pursue it while the work of sustaining our modern life goes out to those unsung coporations.


Oil cartel is still far too powerful. And viable alternatives do exist – like producing fuel from cow poop, which is why independent farmers are being destroyed here, so that foreign corporations can take over.

I find cars quite clean, more so than a living organism, nor do I find them as smelly as I find a stable to be and horse dung also has long term issues on human health so I'd recomend minimum exposure to either "residue remainder."


Yeah, but horse dung has quite limited reach, and not nearly as many harmful supstances.

Well its your choice but you still have severely limited mobility. For me a bike wouldn't cut it what with having a hundred mile round trip every day.


What about bus? Besides, 100 mile trip every day might be OK case... but what do you say about the fact that some people take car for 500 meter trips, despite not being cripples?

I'm sure. And instead of being angry at the corrupt goverment which wronged them they want to take it out on the innocent corporation who gives them work. Nice folks.


And government wronged them beacouse corporations paid it to do it, so that corporations can make quick profit.

But anyway what is the point? Unless you are arguing that entire workforce of the third world is caused by stealing people's property what does a interview of some people, likely selected for their uncapitalistic slant, prove?


Maybe fact that such people constitute vast majority of workforce in Indonesia?

Those corporations are paying them what their work is worth more than they could make without those corporations 


Without corporations, they were living off their land. Hard work, but far more profitable... for workers.

Which creates an increase of demand 


By whom? They can barely pay for basic services, they don't have money to spend on luxuries, which is where your system falls apart.

but I do not find this amusing. 


Neither do I. I saw what unchecked corporations can do.

Capitalism is not slavery, both particpants are free to engage or disengage their partnership as they wish. 


Some of participants. Usually lucky ones.

The nearest equivlent would be what you propose, forcing people like me to work to support another group without compensation.


And then forcing that another group to work... public work - public work; be it digging channels, cleaning streets, or simply teaching them how to make food and sending them to villages... maybe lending them some state land, under condition that they actually use it to produce something... make a vineyard, olive tree plantages, etc.

As for Standard Oil helping Hitler, I did quick Google search:
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books ... ter_04.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/war/ameri ... _europ.htm
http://www.oilcompanies.net/oil1.htm
http://www.reformation.org/rockefeller.html
http://www.karenlyster.com/hitler.html
http://www.acsa.net/ibm_and_hitler.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... itler.html

Apparently, it wasn't only corporation doing it.

http://www.hermes-press.com/impintro1.htm

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:13 am

Picard wrote:Government is bailing out corporations, which are doing nothing to help situation change. That is the problem.
Indeed. The issue however you think adding mroe goverment will somehow magicly make things better. I prefer to shrink the bloated goverment so it isn't perverting companies away from the one true way.
Which is why all factories are going to India, China and Indonesia.
What? They found people willing to work for wages they found make their products profitable. Both parties benifite. That another group has outpriced themselves to be competative isn't the Factory's fault.
And where that "someplace else" would be? In Heaven?
The next factory if they are being so undervalued. Obviously if they have talent it will be reward but as I said running an assembly line is a low skill job ergo anyone can do it.
No, beacouse under conditions you outlined it would be a death sentence. But take a look at conditions in factories in Indonesia, etc. Like German concentration camp / Soviet gulag crossovers.
No you post pictures if you think it makes your case. And if I don't see barb wire, uniformed men with guns and the like I think you owe some people an apology.
You mean, bought the government.
Good Lord its like talking to a record. I'd actually call it buying buisness. Enticing them with "easy money" in exchange for contributions and destroying the whole bedrock of Capitalism.
Really? And what about crap they put into products and we even don't know about it? And that crap is far more dangerous than having literal shit inside.
1) That "crap" is dangerous only to people like you.
2) Go be a baker then. Grow all natural products and market it if you think it is so superior.
Value of time? For who? Capitalist who takes 90 % of profit, while simply sitting and boring himself 90 % of time?
Actually that appears to be a glitch, I think I was trying to say value of the finished object ie how much a person is willing to pay to obtain said product. Obviously time to manufacture and these the total amount which can produce play a part but my brain likely stroked off when I was typing.
And none will, beacouse all corporations struggle to keep wages as low as possible.
While remaining competative, once again rewarding incentive and resourcefulness. The bloke who can make ten shoes in an hour gets a raise to keep him from wandering away to another company.
And 1-10 dollar increase would really hurt them?
Why? They offer a wage per hour and people willing agree to work for that wage. Why should they artifically jack up the wage above what the work is valued at?

But hey, open your own shoe factory and pay the employees what you wish. You can use all that money from your bread tycoon empire to fund it. :)
And you know why they wouldn't get work? Corporations took their land, and forced them to work these shitty jobs.
1) The Corps did nothing, local goverments would have. Blame them if they are corrupt not the Corporations.

2) you really are sticking that everyone who works in India had their land taken from them? Seriously?

3) Why wouldn't they get work? You just killed the only job in town, it isn't like any of these places were thriving beacons of prosperity before hand.
You'd say it's honest if, for example, someone was to destroy your house and give you cheap tent as a compensation?
Ah yes you are seriously sticking to this through I know not why. But anyway I'd hate the guy who bulldozed my place not my employer who's paying me to repair it. Once again limit goverment not the innocent corporations just trying to make a buck.
Savings? From what? These people are getting minimum of pay that is required to stay alive, for God's sake. They simply don't have anything to put aside.
I am going to demand evidence people are paid exactly the right amount only to buy food and not starve. I mean seriously what do they scale pay on single men or something?

In Reality those jobs you hate are the only chance many of those people ever have of making an honest buck, to have a glimmer of anything but being worthless wards.

Roman Empire was a free market state, with additional heavy buerocracy. Same reasons why US and Greece are falling apart today (Greek debt is 113,4 % of GDP; US debt is 99,6 %).
Okay I have no idea what the Roman Empire has to do with anything. An Greece and the US are falling apart due to an overbloated goverment. So no point.
So you'd completely abolish states? You know that humans are, by definition, social beings? (social animals).
No I don't plan on abolishing Countries or states at the moment. However you stated the basis for society was helping people I countered with the old saw that it is not compassion that the baker bakes bread, the cobbler makes shoes and the winemaker makes wine but to exchange for goods and/or services.
Do you know what social means?
This
To help those in need
Actually while how society treats such would be part of the social fabric the definition doesn't mandate we help anyone. It certainly isn't the case when someone says man is a social creature, that just means he likes compansionship of his own kind.
If someone doesn't have a job, find him one, or help him start his own job. If he has disability, he could work something where it won't be a disadvantage.
That is all noble if done on your own free will but you want to force me to do it for you which I say no. I am a Freeman I am indebted to no one and will only help those I chose.
People aren't islands, "everyone for himself". That way of thinking is getting US into trouble
No goverment thinking it can right every corner is killing us. "Everyone for himself" as you wish to call it built the country strong.
Our entire society was constructed on mutual help
And I would still argue mutual benifite.
Under government control... I don't know. But there were supertankers (I remember one was made for India), ordinary tankers, cargo ships, warships (including submarines)... during Homeland War, shipyard did as much for defence of country as people on front lines. You can't fight without a gun. And shipyards during that time produced and repaired heavy weapons, like artillery pieces, and similar. JNA disabled cannons they couldn't take with them, and it was due to workers in shipyards that these cannons were repaired.
Well without knowing profit and loss we can't say. Simply paying people to ineffectivly work isn't not really working. It is a net loss of resources and talent.
And these crony back room deals are basis of free trade. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.
No they cut against free trade with companies prostituting themselves for goverment who kick back favors or deal with competition. That is not Capitalism.
Are you...? F22 was developed and produced by Lockheed Martin
yes and I'm sure they made sure their costs they had to pay were very efficent. That they took advantage of a moron with an unlimited charge account is not a problem. The goverment paid willingly with my money so I should be angry at Uncle Sam not Lockheed Martin hwo at the very worst produced a top of the line heavy tech fighter plane for the previous war instead of the one we're fighting. A fighter by the way the goverment wanted.
Government – that is, USAF – only issued a contract and paid bills.
And had Wal-Mart placed the order for F-22's to defend their interest overseas trust me they wouldn't have put up with any such hanky-panky. The bird would have been on budget and on time btu you let goverment in and the whole thing goes to pot.

Conversly had Goverment contracted Goverment we'd still wouldn't have a fighter, likely wouldn't even gotten past commitee yet.

Which corporation then put in its pockets, while not doing job worth notice.
I hardly would say Lockheed Martin has the goverment in its pocket and your links hardly spoke of Martin not doing its job. They spoke of it being an overly expensive toy for increasingly low threat warfare, a throw back to the Cold War when we are fighting third world nations but again that is the plane the Goverment wanted. Again I agree goverment is corrupt, bloated and inefficent through unlike Breetia I haven't yet been sold on a private military force. Too me the military is almost a labor of love, you can't put a pricetag on battletanks, but none of that really proves your point.
Then you really are a special country.

Only reason why private schools are slightly better are smaller classes. And it's easier to get thrown out.

Or possibly by using and rewarding incentive they have superior teachers to public schools who are paid if the students learn or not?
Besides, how much of that money is going on actual education, and how much on corporations supporting entire system
In Public schools? Bureaucrates in charge of getting their school more funding.
(like McDonalds, who is poisoning children in many schools all over US, etc.).
Look you don't like preservitives and such thats fine but don't make such stupid claims as McDonalds is poisoning kids. That is idiotic. Hell I've eaten at McDonalds for years and I'm mysteriously not dead.
Certainly not less
Everything else requires moral goodness on the part of the participants to make it work. Which is why I can never understand people who basicly believe humans are weasily scumbags push collectivism.
Except everyone is running for a fast profit, and no-one invests in things that are important in long run.
Or that is what people say when they have a nonprofitable idea and they don't want to admit it. Look wireless power has certain PR value if a corp could do it and make any money they'd have done it by now. They haven't but once more you can get supporters, you can raise funds and complete the work if you feel it is such a bonaza.
It was a novelty in early 1900's. But Tesla did prove it can work.
Ionocrafts work in the sense you can get lift but that doesn't mean they are practical. Same thing with Tesla's brainchild.
Oil cartel is still far too powerful
Okay how come you guys never can do anything? Its always X is too powerful. No one is stopping you Picard but yourself, hell the Oil company would likely buy you out if you did make a good go of it.
producing fuel from cow poop, which is why independent farmers are being destroyed here
There are not enough cows in the world to fuel the United States at its current level much less growing much less the world. Its a dead end and thats why farmers are failing with it not because of a shadowy force.
Yeah, but horse dung has quite limited reach, and not nearly as many harmful supstances.
If you say so but I'll take 70's era pollutant over horse dung, and in an era before antibotics forget about it.
What about bus?
Because I like driving a car and not waiting around on someone elses schedual.
100 mile trip every day might be OK case... but what do you say about the fact that some people take car for 500 meter trips, despite not being cripples?
It is not my place to judge someone else or tell them how to live their lives. If you want to drive good. You want to ride a bike good. But do not tell me how I should run my own affairs.
And government wronged them beacouse corporations paid it to do it, so that corporations can make quick profit.
What is with this "quick profit" you are talking about? These factories are not overnight affairs, this is a relative massive investment of capitol in these things. Nothing quick. And if we shrink the goverment, which just as likely did it wihtout the company asking, then we don't have any problems. The corp comes in and buys the land fairly using capitalism and boom everyone is happy.
Maybe fact that such people constitute vast majority of workforce in Indonesia?
Please I eagerly await evidence the majority of the workforce had property they legally owned stolen by a goverment.
Without corporations, they were living off their land. Hard work, but far more profitable... for workers.
So you keep claiming. No evidence through just more empty tarnashing corporations.
By whom? They can barely pay for basic services
The people they are paying for all those basic services if nothing else.
they don't have money to spend on luxuries, which is where your system falls apart.
And even being able to buy food when before you couldn't encourages economic growth. But seriously this is not an argument. This is a broken Socialist record bleeting on about the exploited working class.
Neither do I. I saw what unchecked corporations can do.
And I've seen what unchecked Goverments can do and what it can pervert Companies into. I'll take unchecked Corps thank you.
Some of participants. Usually lucky ones.
Nope all of them. They may not like the results but they are free to do so. Freedom doesn't mean your free from bad choices, only that you are free to make your own destiny.
And then forcing that another group to work... public work - public work; be it digging channels, cleaning streets, or simply teaching them how to make food and sending them to villages
Joy public works, make work paid by me, then a buracratic run "teach-in" teaching nonproductive talents. I say give the hippies a job interview and cull the ones capable of actual work.
maybe lending them some state land, under condition that they actually use it to produce something... make a vineyard, olive tree plantages, etc.
And you are free to go buy property and give it to these needy people. I don't see why I have to pay for your generosity however.
As for Standard Oil helping Hitler, I did quick Google search:
Yeah saw those and unless I missed anything none of them sold during the War. They had buisness dealings in the 30's, invested and what not but that isn't illegal. nazi Germany was not then at war with anyone much less the US and while I personally wouldn't consider it a good venture they are free to pursue where they see profit.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:32 am

Found this with a quick web search. A little dated but it helps deflate Picard's rather elaborate belief Corps are purposely paying people only just enough to not starve to perpuate some wierd feudal lifestyle into eternity.

Also stumbled upon this, a little less dated, which indicates Indonesia's minimum wage rose by 10% in 2007. Also they apparently have unions, so much for unregulated and pure Free Enterprise.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:01 pm

sonofccn wrote:Well if it works for you I hope you pursue it and have all the success. As for me I'm afraid I just have a knee-jerk reaction to that sort of stuff, it is who I am. Through I do thank you for taking the time to express and cataloge your thoughts.
Thank you too for this interesting alternate view-point.
I believe our two view-points do characterize our two countries very, IMO, up to a certain point.
The majority of Canadians feel like I do, while the majority of Americans I've met feel more like you towards regulations...

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:10 pm

sonofccn wrote:Also stumbled upon this, a little less dated, which indicates Indonesia's minimum wage rose by 10% in 2007. Also they apparently have unions, so much for unregulated and pure Free Enterprise.
The existence of an union doesn't prove anything. For a fact, many high profile western countries have unions, notably in Europe, yet they kept losing on the war for better wages and more work. Heck, people seem so ignorant of what's going on that they still count on the unions to protect them despite those unions being ran by people who are tied to political systems which have clearly done their best to destroy economical activity in those countries. Unions soon become infiltrated entities which get orientated in specific ways as to avoid people asking the right questions. So the existence of unions means nothing. In fact, it participates to the illusion of democracy in many ways.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:03 pm

@sonofccn I don't have time to post reply, and I won't have until next weekend at least, but I'd advise you to look at this:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=4&t=2149

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:12 pm

Picard wrote:@sonofccn I don't have time to post reply, and I won't have until next weekend at least, but I'd advise you to look at this:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=4&t=2149
Take your time but to your link I'm not sure what I should be looking for.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:45 pm

That link I posted, and read the text.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:57 pm

Picard wrote:That link I posted, and read the text.
Okay...it appears to consitent with what you've argued previously but I do not find the argument made within it particuarly compelling. Is there anything in particular I was supposed to notice or take from it?

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:31 am

It's text of Croatian economist, which has been refused to be published by both publicly and privately owned newspapers. As a result, it is only avaliable on Internet, be it throught e-mail (which is how I got it) or from web site.

It also shows reality of life in EU and corporate free trade society. As I said, I only translated it and added some notes.

And yes, I already knew most of it; be it throught analysis of newspapers or throught relatives living inside EU. However, it does add some facts I didn't know, especially at beginning.

It also quite clearly shows (as you have probably noticed) that capitalists control EU, not politicians, or the people, as well as some of mechanisms of that control.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:31 am

sonofccn wrote:Indeed. The issue however you think adding mroe goverment will somehow magicly make things better. I prefer to shrink the bloated goverment so it isn't perverting companies away from the one true way.
And that "one true way" of capitalism is making profit by any means necessary – arson, murder, theft, or world war. It doesn't matter to them.
What? They found people willing to work for wages they found make their products profitable. Both parties benifite. That another group has outpriced themselves to be competative isn't the Factory's fault.
I must laugh... willing to work? They have to work for corporations, else they will die from hunger, due to these same corporations taking their land and building golf terrains on it.

And factory ought to have some responsibilities. It has been founded and funded by money from its home country, it only exists beacouse people in West (including its home country) buy its products, so it should remain there. And if it does go to Indonesia etc., it should fullfill its promises.
The next factory if they are being so undervalued. Obviously if they have talent it will be reward but as I said running an assembly line is a low skill job ergo anyone can do it. 
There is no next factory. For them choosing between two factories is to choose between McDonnalds and BurgerKing – no difference, except in name. Besides, if they quit at one factory, there is no guarantee that they will get a job at another one – actually, they will probably be branded troublemakers and forbidden from having a job at all.
No you post pictures if you think it makes your case. And if I don't see barb wire, uniformed men with guns and the like I think you owe some people an apology.
And you think they will allow pictures to be taken out? That they allow journalists with cameras to run around their factories? Althought, descriptions of some factories that got out throught workers on a break or similar reminded me of concentration camps.

http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000167.htm
1) That "crap" is dangerous only to people like you.
You're a zombie then?
2) Go be a baker then. Grow all natural products and market it if you think it is so superior.
I'd like to.
While remaining competative, once again rewarding incentive and resourcefulness. The bloke who can make ten shoes in an hour gets a raise to keep him from wandering away to another company.
They cannot wander off to another company. You think everywhere is like in USA and Europe? Even in the West, situation is bad; but in the East (China, India, South-East Asia) situation is often akin to what was in Europe in 19th century.
Why? They offer a wage per hour and people willing agree to work for that wage. Why should they artifically jack up the wage above what the work is valued at?
So, "you aren't worth a shit to me?" They pay them just enough for them not to die but still to have to work 16 hours a day for basic survival.
1) The Corps did nothing, local goverments would have. Blame them if they are corrupt not the Corporations.
And who corrupted governments? Corporations did. Or you think that corruption just appears, with no reason or incentive? Corruption is a view of trade.
2) you really are sticking that everyone who works in India had their land taken from them? Seriously?
I was talking about Indonesia, specifically, but situation in India probably isn't much better either.
3) Why wouldn't they get work? You just killed the only job in town, it isn't like any of these places were thriving beacons of prosperity before hand.
People were richer with farming the land than in these cities.
Ah yes you are seriously sticking to this through I know not why. But anyway I'd hate the guy who bulldozed my place not my employer who's paying me to repair it. Once again limit goverment not the innocent corporations just trying to make a buck.
So, you'd hate a guy who bulldozed your place and not a corporation which ordered him to do it beacouse it needed ground for the new market center?

Innocent corporations trying to make a buck? I'd guess that Hitler was also innocent – after all, he was just trying to repair German economy.
I am going to demand evidence people are paid exactly the right amount only to buy food and not starve. I mean seriously what do they scale pay on single men or something?
Just take a look at any source. Internet is full of them. Search for this:

"true working conditions in third world" (no quotation marks).
In Reality those jobs you hate are the only chance many of those people ever have of making an honest buck, to have a glimmer of anything but being worthless wards.
After corporate-controlled governments took their land and built golf terrains on it, that is.
Okay I have no idea what the Roman Empire has to do with anything. An Greece and the US are falling apart due to an overbloated goverment. So no point.
Greece is falling apart beacouse it literally has no primary or secondary sector. US is falling apart due to greedy corporations and due to US Government acting like oversized Insurance / Bank crossover to these same corporations.
No I don't plan on abolishing Countries or states at the moment. However you stated the basis for society was helping people I countered with the old saw that it is not compassion that the baker bakes bread, the cobbler makes shoes and the winemaker makes wine but to exchange for goods and/or services.
True. But they don't keep anyone in slavery either.
Actually while how society treats such would be part of the social fabric the definition doesn't mandate we help anyone. It certainly isn't the case when someone says man is a social creature, that just means he likes compansionship of his own kind.
Human society and humans as species only survived this long beacouse we were willing to help each other, often free of charge.
That is all noble if done on your own free will but you want to force me to do it for you which I say no. I am a Freeman I am indebted to no one and will only help those I chose.
You aren't as free as you think. You still depend on other people as much as someone else may depend on you. And people shouldn't be treated as machine parts; "works until it breaks down" and "throw it away once it's broken".
No goverment thinking it can right every corner is killing us. "Everyone for himself" as you wish to call it built the country strong.
If US is strong then I'm tuna in conserve. It's indebted, it's falling apart – it would have fell apart quite some time ago if it weren't for China buying US debt in exchange for US feeding its populace.
And I would still argue mutual benifite.
And say what you want, but mutual benefit does not include treating your workers as tools or work animals.
Well without knowing profit and loss we can't say. Simply paying people to ineffectivly work isn't not really working. It is a net loss of resources and talent.
It worked fine until we got pro-EU government. Then it fell apart, and is now being privatized – probably a set-up.
No they cut against free trade with companies prostituting themselves for goverment who kick back favors or deal with competition. That is not Capitalism.
In your Utopian theory it isn't. But that's how corporate capitalism works.

F-15 is still a better fighter than F-22. But Lockheed Martin makes so much money on F-22 and plans to make it on F-35 that it doesn't allow F-15s to be upgraded. Besides, it is entirely possible for excercises of F-15 with F-22 to have been a set-up, but we can't know. For now.
yes and I'm sure they made sure their costs they had to pay were very efficent. That they took advantage of a moron with an unlimited charge account is not a problem. The goverment paid willingly with my money so I should be angry at Uncle Sam not Lockheed Martin hwo at the very worst produced a top of the line heavy tech fighter plane for the previous war instead of the one we're fighting. A fighter by the way the goverment wanted.
F-22 is top line heavy garbage. It can't fly in rain, it suffers from oxygen problems, its electronic are outdated due to development period being 15 years longer than expected 5-year development period. It wasn't able to fly against Lybia, so F-15 and Eurofighter Typhoon had to do the job of helping steal Lybia's oil. F22's fuel-to-weight ratio, wing loading and acceleration are inferior to existing fighters (read: lower manouverability). It can't be produced in large numbers, and if US gets attacked tomorrow, main duty of fending off attack would fall to the F-15 – which has skipped at least one upgrade cycle due to F22. It also has oxygen problems, which, as far as I know, haven't been solved yet.

All listed problems with F22 are even worse with F35.

Oh, and:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/d ... 26-f22.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03020.html
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/ ... t_071112w/
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/01/old-school-jet/


However, I find this one just idiotic:
http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Magazi ... 8edit.aspx

F35 has even more problems than F22, as well as far lower Air-to-air capacity. It is better for air-to-ground, however I'd say that A-10 beats it in that area.
And had Wal-Mart placed the order for F-22's to defend their interest overseas trust me they wouldn't have put up with any such hanky-panky. The bird would have been on budget and on time btu you let goverment in and the whole thing goes to pot.
Wal-Mart isn't controlled by other corporations. Lockheed Martin had quite a few lobbysts.
Conversly had Goverment contracted Goverment we'd still wouldn't have a fighter, likely wouldn't even gotten past commitee yet.
You'd have improved version of F-15, which would have been superior to the F-22.
I hardly would say Lockheed Martin has the goverment in its pocket and your links hardly spoke of Martin not doing its job. They spoke of it being an overly expensive toy for increasingly low threat warfare, a throw back to the Cold War when we are fighting third world nations but again that is the plane the Goverment wanted. Again I agree goverment is corrupt, bloated and inefficent through unlike Breetia I haven't yet been sold on a private military force. Too me the military is almost a labor of love, you can't put a pricetag on battletanks, but none of that really proves your point.
Lockheed Martin intentionally drew out development of F-22 from 5 to 20 years, so that once F22 reached production stage, its electronics were already outdated.
Or possibly by using and rewarding incentive they have superior teachers to public schools who are paid if the students learn or not?
I had some really good teachers at public school. Actually, they were more of a rule than an exception.
In Public schools? Bureaucrates in charge of getting their school more funding.
And how much McDonalds gets for feeding students crap?
Look you don't like preservitives and such thats fine but don't make such stupid claims as McDonalds is poisoning kids. That is idiotic. Hell I've eaten at McDonalds for years and I'm mysteriously not dead.
It's one thing eating fast food occasionally. It's something completely different to create fast food addicts.
Everything else requires moral goodness on the part of the participants to make it work. Which is why I can never understand people who basicly believe humans are weasily scumbags push collectivism.
Collectivism makes you (or should make you) feel responsible for your actions and how they will affect other people. That is, responsibility. But as I said once – too much of anything isn't good.
Or that is what people say when they have a nonprofitable idea and they don't want to admit it. Look wireless power has certain PR value if a corp could do it and make any money they'd have done it by now. They haven't but once more you can get supporters, you can raise funds and complete the work if you feel it is such a bonaza.
And supporters will want to know how profitable it is.
Okay how come you guys never can do anything? Its always X is too powerful. No one is stopping you Picard but yourself, hell the Oil company would likely buy you out if you did make a good go of it.
They are now destroying independent farmers in Croatia so that they can't use horseshit to become a concurention. And you did touch another point – corporations buy – or try to buy – anything they see as profitable. Then they protect it so that only they can use it.
There are not enough cows in the world to fuel the United States at its current level much less growing much less the world. Its a dead end and thats why farmers are failing with it not because of a shadowy force.
Farmers aren't even trying to do it yet. Yet corporations are destroying them.
Because I like driving a car and not waiting around on someone elses schedual.
Take a bicycle. And again there is issue of human idiocy – too many people (including one I know) like to drive car just for sake of it.
It is not my place to judge someone else or tell them how to live their lives. If you want to drive good. You want to ride a bike good. But do not tell me how I should run my own affairs.
That would be perfect if your affairs wouldn't affect anyone. But noone lives under glass bell.
What is with this "quick profit" you are talking about? These factories are not overnight affairs, this is a relative massive investment of capitol in these things. Nothing quick. And if we shrink the goverment, which just as likely did it wihtout the company asking, then we don't have any problems. The corp comes in and buys the land fairly using capitalism and boom everyone is happy.
Everyone is happy except for workers. Besides, "nothing quick" doesn't translate into "50 years" or "100 years", doesn't it?
Please I eagerly await evidence the majority of the workforce had property they legally owned stolen by a goverment.
http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk ... horgan.htm
And even being able to buy food when before you couldn't encourages economic growth. But seriously this is not an argument. This is a broken Socialist record bleeting on about the exploited working class.
And your is broken corporatists record bleeting on about well-meaning misunderstood capitalists.
And I've seen what unchecked Goverments can do and what it can pervert Companies into. I'll take unchecked Corps thank you.
And what when these corporations take over Govenment and its duties? Are you sure that it was Government which did it out of its own will, as opposed to corporate lobbying?
Nope all of them. They may not like the results but they are free to do so. Freedom doesn't mean your free from bad choices, only that you are free to make your own destiny.
Which no man is completely free, since everyone would have to be a God to do it. But corporatistic system reduces that freedom even more.
And you are free to go buy property and give it to these needy people. I don't see why I have to pay for your generosity however.
Beacouse you can't live like island for yourself?
Yeah saw those and unless I missed anything none of them sold during the War. They had buisness dealings in the 30's, invested and what not but that isn't illegal. nazi Germany was not then at war with anyone much less the US and while I personally wouldn't consider it a good venture they are free to pursue where they see profit.
http://www.acsa.net/ibm_and_hitler.htm

http://www.karenlyster.com/hitler.html

Hitler's goals were well known long before the war.

http://www.reformation.org/rockefeller.html

sonofccn
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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:19 am

That was a short weekend.
Picard wrote:It also shows reality of life in EU and corporate free trade society. As I said, I only translated it and added some notes.
It shows one man's interpentations of reality, I didn't see any sources cited through I admit I may have missed them on the page itself.
It also quite clearly shows (as you have probably noticed) that capitalists control EU, not politicians, or the people, as well as some of mechanisms of that control.
I gathered that is what the "paper" was attempting to impart to me but similarly as I disagree with you I reject his interpretation. In my opinion I find him wrong and in error with his base assumptions off kilter.
And that "one true way" of capitalism is making profit by any means necessary – arson, murder, theft, or world war. It doesn't matter to them.
Actually I was thinking competition, something which can't happen when goverment plays favors, and sufficet to say I still find your...interpetation of Capitalism wrong.
I must laugh... willing to work? They have to work for corporations, else they will die from hunger, due to these same corporations taking their land and building golf terrains on it.
Yes. Willing to work. Corps don't press guns to peoples' heads everyone works willingly. On average corps pay as good or better than local companies giving poor slobs a chance at one day improving their lot in life. And you still have not provided evidence the majority of workers in the third world had land stolen from them.
And factory ought to have some responsibilities.It has been founded and funded by money from its home country, it only exists beacouse people in West (including its home country) buy its products, so it should remain there.
Uh the Factory was built to produce products, that is all. Workers are needed to do this and they are rewarded for their effort with pay. It has no responsibility or fealty beyond the last paycheck, it doesn't exist to provide jobs; jobs exist to provide it.
There is no next factory.

For them choosing between two factories is to choose between McDonnalds and BurgerKing – no difference, except in name.
The obvious point is if McDonalds is grossely underpaying its employees, lets say it pays them in pennies, Burgerking dishes out a quarter and expands while McDonalds shrinks with all of its employees fleeing to greener pastures. Its all a balancing act which is where Marxist thought collaspes, under their thought if you pay your employees nothing at all you will become a gazilionair overnight while in reality you'll be in the poorhouse.
Besides, if they quit at one factory, there is no guarantee that they will get a job at another one – actually, they will probably be branded troublemakers and forbidden from having a job at all.
No one is guaranteed anything in this life Picard but death. You have to take risks if you want to succeed. And as to be branded a "troublemaker" merely quiting a job hardly brands you,unlike say quiting several in a row, and if they have such skills another corp will gladly take them in dening their rival the asset.
And you think they will allow pictures to be taken out?
You asked me to look at them so obviously I assume they exist. Please provide them.
Althought, descriptions of some factories that got out throught workers on a break or similar reminded me of concentration camps.
Words are easy to fabricate, doubly so for people with a bone to pick at some group or sect, pictures slightly more difficult. I'd prefer solid, photograpical evidence if at all possible.
You're a zombie then?
No. But I understand those chemicals and preservatives help mankind not hinder.
I'd like to.
Then do it. Go to your friends, inform them how stinking rick you'll be with organic bread and ask them if they want in on this. Congratulations your a Capitalist.
They cannot wander off to another company. You think everywhere is like in USA and Europe? Even in the West, situation is bad; but in the East (China, India, South-East Asia) situation is often akin to what was in Europe in 19th century.
So your saying if you try and quite someone will shoot you?
So, "you aren't worth a shit to me?" They pay them just enough for them not to die but still to have to work 16 hours a day for basic survival.
They pay the agreed upon price Picard. What the company feels the work is worth and what the employee feels is worth his time. Its a fair and free exchange, really a thing of beauty in my opinion.

And as to paying exactly what they need to stay alive you have not provided evidence and Indonesia had its minimum wage go up so no i do not agree with your assetment of the facts.
And who corrupted governments?
Themselves. Power corrupts after all.
Or you think that corruption just appears, with no reason or incentive? Corruption is a view of trade.
and I in turn view corruption as a thing of the goverment, it alters and destroys the delicate balance of capitalism. The checks and balances, hence too big to fail which never should have been uttered in America. But at this point we really are just spouting at each other.
People were richer with farming the land than in these cities.
Please prove the greater majority of people were even farmers, so far you have provided little.
So, you'd hate a guy who bulldozed your place and not a corporation which ordered him to do it beacouse it needed ground for the new market center?
Since no evidence has been presented that the corp had any involvment or foreknowledge of what the goverment did, and it is paying me unlike the goverment, yes I'd be angry at the goverment.
Innocent corporations trying to make a buck? I'd guess that Hitler was also innocent – after all, he was just trying to repair German economy.
No. he was a soclialist. And a mass murderer. Corporations however are going to underpriviliaged areas that need the work, both sides benifite.
Just take a look at any source. Internet is full of them. Search for this:
you claimed it, please provide it. A creditable source as well, not some socalistic or wacko net piece.
Greece is falling apart beacouse it literally has no primary or secondary sector
It has no private sector. We're talking about a place with 14 month per annual retirement packages for bureacrates, where hairdressers can retire early due to exposure to "hostile chemicals".
US is falling apart due to greedy corporations and due to US Government acting like oversized Insurance / Bank crossover to these same corporations.
While I am no fan of the bailout that is just part of the disease, goverment workers salaries, the early retirement and goverment mandated retirement packages a private sector bloke couldn't dream of, the various liabilities the goverment has given a blank check to are what is killing us.

As to the "corps", barely worthy of the name selling out like they did, I do detest them for that and would have let them crumble under their own inefficent rotten waste. Hence why I disaprove of "tamed Capitalism" which all too easily perverts once sleek and voracious corporations into...those wretches.
True. But they don't keep anyone in slavery either.
Can we please lay of the slave thing? It isn't slavery Picard, you have a choice.
Human society and humans as species only survived this long beacouse we were willing to help each other, often free of charge.
We typically help family free of charge or those we consider family. The close knit tribe everyone else...not so much. Again the Farmer doesn't farm to provide you with food out of the compassion of his heart he does it for his benifite. Much as compassion and mercy are noble traits worthy of preservation you have not presented evidence they are the primal motivators of humanity as opposed to mutual benifite.
You aren't as free as you think. You still depend on other people as much as someone else may depend on you.
I have need of others, and in turn others have need of my services, but we are not indebted to each other. Our transactions may be ceased at either's privilage.
And people shouldn't be treated as machine parts; "works until it breaks down" and "throw it away once it's broken".
I wouldn't call it being treated like machine parts. I have never stated you shouldn't help another in need. I have stated that one in need is not entitled to my labor and only I may see fit to bequeath it to them.
If US is strong then I'm tuna in conserve
Reread. I stated what is killing us.
It's indebted, it's falling apart
Well that is life through things have made my optimistic. The rise of the Tea party has given me hope that America's best days are still ahead of her.
And say what you want, but mutual benefit does not include treating your workers as tools or work animals.
Uh we were arguing over the basic dynamics of human interaction. So no need to merely repeat ourselves here.
It worked fine until we got pro-EU government. Then it fell apart, and is now being privatized – probably a set-up.
Wait? You said it privatized and then fell apart, now your claiming it was goverment owned, collasped and is only now being privitized?
In your Utopian theory it isn't. But that's how corporate capitalism works.
No that is crony capitalism works which is why I want to limit goverment as much as possible. It doesn't have a place in the private sector, at least not to the extent it has grown.
F-15 is still a better fighter than F-22.
Uh everything I've seen about it actually doing the job it was designed to do, kill enemy fighters, shows it blowing the F-15 out of the water. Its has some teething problems and is a very high maintence machine but at its job it is without equal.
But Lockheed Martin makes so much money on F-22 and plans to make it on F-35 that it doesn't allow F-15s to be upgraded. Besides, it is entirely possible for excercises of F-15 with F-22 to have been a set-up, but we can't know. For now.
Conversly we have no reason to assume anything has been set up or that Martin purposuly delayed and prolonged the F-22, as opposed to the Goverment changing what it wanted exactly going from a high specilized air superority fighter to king of all trades future warbird, so I see no reason to assume things as you appeared to have done.
F-22 is top line heavy garbage.
So your an expert on American fighter jets now?
It can't fly in rain
It wasn't rainfall. The artical your link mentioned involved some jets stationed in humid, tropical areas which the coolant systems drew in. The artical mentions its essentially teething problems F-15s went through a similar thing.
it suffers from oxygen problems
As far as I can tell that has never been found a cause. Not saying there isn't a problem but if one hasn't been discovered yet you can hardly say the thing is defective without evidence.
its electronic are outdated due to development period being 15 years longer than expected 5-year development period.
Hey blame the goverment. Everything takes longer when they are around and gain the craft's profile radically changed after the cold war ended and military budges started to shrink. It went from a specilized weapon of war to something that had to be everything to everybody. Those kind of things add to your development cycle.
It wasn't able to fly against Lybia
Correction it wasn't deployed. That has nothing to with Lockheed Martin
It can't be produced in large numbers
It hasn't yet but if the Goverment would actually increase spending on the one program that is completely within their perogative we could churn these bad boys out.
main duty of fending off attack would fall to the F-15 – which has skipped at least one upgrade cycle due to F22
1. the F-15 is still the primary air superority fighter unless I'm mistaken through those F-22s would hit far above their number.

2. F-15s are old, their aging. Its like upgrading p-51's instead of building F-89's.

3. and lastly this is the fighter the Goverment wanted so once again if it fails to meet the cut that isn't the company's fault. They build what you ask for.
All listed problems with F22 are even worse with F35
We're talking some teething problems and being designed for the previous war. hardly daming for Lockheed Martin.
So teething problems, a 1998 "opinion piece" that the plane was being pushed ahead too quickly and the general comment it is a cold war design struggling to find a place in a low threat theater of war. I've never claimed the F-22 didn't have it fair critism only that it can do its job, when its high maintnence is met, and it is the plane the Goverment requested.
However, I find this one just idiotic:
http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Magazi ... 8edit.aspx
Because it disagrees with you?
Wal-Mart isn't controlled by other corporations. Lockheed Martin had quite a few lobbysts.
Who doesn't, you have to try and keep goverment from fragging you over. Now if you have evidence Martin purposuly and malicious produced inferior products and forced the Goverment to accept it please provide it.
You'd have improved version of F-15, which would have been superior to the F-22.
1. The F-22 can kill the F-15 in a heartbeat. 2. No the money to upgrade the F-15 would have been already blown to fund the F-22 project which as I mentioned would still only be at the commeetie level with bureacrates arguing amonst themselves as they are won't to do.
Lockheed Martin intentionally drew out development of F-22 from 5 to 20 years, so that once F22 reached production stage, its electronics were already outdated.
If you have proof it did so purposuly please provide it.
I had some really good teachers at public school. Actually, they were more of a rule than an exception.
If you say so. I'll still trust a private employee over a goverment worker. And private schools do typically score higher than public, at least state side.
And how much McDonalds gets for feeding students crap?
Wouldn't know. None of my schools had Mcdonalds. We all had to eat cafateria food.
It's one thing eating fast food occasionally. It's something completely different to create fast food addicts.
Free will. No one forces them to eat at Mcdonalds but that's beside the point. You claimed they were poisioning kids which they are not.
Collectivism makes you (or should make you) feel responsible for your actions and how they will affect other people.
Doesn't work that way. Typically creates the exact opposite, look at Greece riot to keep benifites going. The country is completely and totally bankrupt, completely in hock and they don't care. They merely want what they are "entitled" to.
And supporters will want to know how profitable it is.
Obviously. That is the human condition and if the machine is practical you can make profit off of it.
They are now destroying independent farmers in Croatia so that they can't use horseshit to become a concurention
I will believe it when I see it.
corporations buy – or try to buy – anything they see as profitable. Then they protect it so that only they can use it.
Yes. Private property, conerstone of civilization. entices and forces others to keep pushing on to find richer deposits. Truly wonderful.
Farmers aren't even trying to do it yet. Yet corporations are destroying them.
First you said they were destroying farmers to stop them from using horse dung as a fuel source. Now you are claiming they are premativly destroying them for something they haven't even attempted. That is a contridiction.
Take a bicycle. And again there is issue of human idiocy – too many people (including one I know) like to drive car just for sake of it.
Freedom Picard. If I want to drive a car I paid for, pay for the fuel that goes into the tank I can drive it as much as I want, for as long as i want whenver I so desire.
That would be perfect if your affairs wouldn't affect anyone. But noone lives under glass bell.
Doesn't matter. Personal rights, a right to live my life as I see fit. Actual freedom. You may beg, bribe and plead but in the end the decision must reside within me alone or we have tyranny.
Everyone is happy except for workers
Why wouldn't they be happy. They've just been paid.
I could not find the words Stolen, stole, Land etc in the document. It merely talks about women workers.
And your is broken corporatists record bleeting on about well-meaning misunderstood capitalists.
Maybe. I am the unrepented Capitalist after all. And for the record I do trust Corps far more than I trust goverment.
And what when these corporations take over Govenment and its duties?
Personally I don't believe corporations can take over goverment's role without absorbing their failings so I'd vote little to no change.
Are you sure that it was Government which did it out of its own will, as opposed to corporate lobbying?
I don't think Lobbiests had much to do with Fascist Italy, Mao's china, Stalin's Russia or Lenin's before that.
Which no man is completely free
Not from want Picard or need. Indeed Freedom normally exuberates such things but free to act. To make ones own decisions.
Beacouse you can't live like island for yourself?
I'm not an island I pay my way. And no one is stopping you Picard from living a selfless life catering to those in need. All I ask is that you let me, and every other individual, make his or her own decision. Be generous with your own money Picard, not mine.
Hitler's goals were well known long before the war.
You said during war Picard. That is 1941-1945. High Treason to support an enemy of your country. What men did before that doesn't interest me, they have to answer for everything by a higher power, only either evidence for the alleged crime or a retraction.

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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by Picard » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:47 pm

I'll reply to the rest of the post when I get time (most probably next weekend), but on the issue of F-35... F-35 isn't an interceptor, and never will be. F-22 is far better (larger, more ammo, twin-engine), and best thing that could be done is to use technology developed for F-35 to upgrade F-22. However, F-22 will never be able to replace F-15 due to its cost, and F-35 will never be able to replace other two due to lacking AA capacity, as well as the cost, which will increase still - Eurofighter Typhoon would be a far better choice than F-35 when it comes to anti-air mission, even when we forget cost and maintenance issue (despite so-called "low maintenace" stealth, both F22 and F35 are extremely maintenance hungry, in good part due to the stealth coating).

Also, A-10 is far better than F-35 when it comes to air-to-ground missions - it is cheaper to produce, maintain and far more survivable. However, F-35 is better when it comes to defending itself from other planes, so we have no clear "winner" here.

I hope you undrestand now.

sonofccn
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Re: THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY

Post by sonofccn » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:36 pm

Picard wrote:but on the issue of F-35... F-35 isn't an interceptor, and never will be.
It isn't specificly designed as an air superority fighter no, more of a cheaper generalist craft.
, F-22 will never be able to replace F-15 due to its cost
Well the Military went with having a few expensive toys was cheaper than having a bunch of lesser priced weaponry, doing more with less. Personally the military is the one program which shouldn't try and cut corners but regardless that is not a demerit to the F-22 or its builder. That is the plane the military wanted, what they asked for.
and F-35 will never be able to replace other two due to lacking AA capacity
Its built with even more multi-role capability in mind than the F-22, again the mindset of doing more with less, and obviously can't match the capability of the F-22 but I wasn't aware of tests pitting the F-35 against F-15s. Lockheed Martin claims 400% superority in air to air through I very much doubt you'll take their word for it.
despite so-called "low maintenace" stealth, both F22 and F35 are extremely maintenance hungry, in good part due to the stealth coating).
I won't deny they, doubly so for the F-22, are high maintenace machines but that isn't a flaw or discredit to Lockheed Martin. That is what the military ordered.
Also, A-10 is far better than F-35 when it comes to air-to-ground missions
The A-10 is strictly a ground assault craft and is far more likely to be intercepted and shot down by a comparable power than the F-35. As well the F-35 can play escort, intercepter, superority fighter etc in addition to running ground attacks.
it is cheaper to produce, maintain and far more survivable.
Its a flying tank. Wonderful design but doesn't really fly in the same circles as the F-35. Throw a Su-27 at it and we're likely looking at a dead A-10.
However, F-35 is better when it comes to defending itself from other planes, so we have no clear "winner" here.
The A-10 is a specilized warcraft built to exceed amazingly at a solitary objective, in this case tactical air support. The F-35 in turn is a generalist strikecraft intended to fill as many holes as possible, they are not comparable.

Edit:I found this page an intriguing listing of actual issues with the F-35, in essence trying to do too much with too little, and it appears to be some Austrailian aerospace publication so they should't have any stake in the US/EU peeing match.

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