a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

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Admiral Breetai
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a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:08 am

all are welcome I'm genuinely interested in every ones POV in fact I really am hoping for all of you who are able to participate

recently this abomination was put to an end
Washington (CNN) -- More than 50 members of a child pornography ring who engaged in what authorities describe as "horrific" and "unspeakable" crimes have been arrested for sexually exploiting children from 12 years old to as young as infants.

Top federal law enforcement officials say agents busted the global online pornography ring following an intense international investigation that began in 2009. The ring, based in the United States, reached across five continents and 14 countries.

Seventy-two members of the online site called Dreamboard have been charged in the United States. Officials said 52 of them have been arrested in the U.S. and abroad. The identities of the remaining 20 are unknown at this time.

An additional 10 individuals were arrested abroad on charges from other countries.

"In order to become part of the Dreamboard community, prospective members were required to upload pornography portraying children under 12 years of age or younger," said Attorney General Eric Holder at a Justice Department news conference. "Once given access, the participants had to continually upload images of child sexual abuse in order to maintain membership. The more content they provided, the more content they were allowed to access. Members who created and shared images and videos of themselves molesting children received elevated status and greater access," he said.

What particularly horrified investigators were "super-hardcore" posts that involved adults having violent sexual intercourse with "very young kids" who were being subjected to both physical and sexual abuse.

Holder said, "Some of the children featured in these images and videos were just infants and in many cases, the children being victimized were in obvious and also intentional pain, even in distress and crying, just as the rules for one area of the bulletin board mandated. They had to be in distress and crying."

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said, "To give you an example of the scope of this forum, the capture and analysis of the forum revealed that the board may have been the vehicle for the distribution of up to 123 terabytes of child pornography, which is roughly equivalent to nearly 16,000 DVDs. ... Additional media recovered from the targets arrested in the United States alone has been found to contain over one million images of child pornography."

About 600 men belonged to the members-only online bulletin board, which has now been taken down. Authorities said the site encouraged and rewarded members who sexually abused young children and made them cry.

"As alleged, Dreamboard had strict rules and a rigid hierarchy. Its membership was tightly controlled by the group's administrators," Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer told reporters. "Applicants to the group were required to upload quote nude or hardcore child pornography to become members and members were required to continue posting additional images every 50 days or risk expulsion. Moreover, members could increase their status based on their level of commitment to the enterprise. From member, to VIP, to Super VIP, to the most elite status of all, Super VIP Dot. Only those members who produced their own child pornography could be granted the status of Super VIP Dot," Breuer explained.

"The members of this criminal network shared a demented dream to create the pre-eminent online community for the promotion of child sexual exploitation but for the children they victimized this was nothing short of a nightmare," Holder said.

One Justice Department investigator who asked not to be identified because of the ongoing probe said, "Dozens of young children were directly victimized," some of whom had been identified by agents working the case.

Of the five "administrators" who managed the online community, one was arrested in Canada and another in France. The three others have not yet been identified by agents following the case and remain at large.

"Operation Delego" was spearheaded by agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

John Morton, the head of ICE, said the day marked a law enforcement "success" but was nonetheless a "sad" day because of the nature of the crimes involved.

"There are days in this job where it's hard to separate great success from great sorrow and today is such a day. It's a day of great success because we've brought an end to one of the worst instances of Internet child abuse ICE has ever investigated. ... It's a day of great sorrow because this case is ultimately a tale of the perverse and often violent exploitation of children, very, very young children to satisfy the dark pleasures of a group of adult men," Morton said.

The law enforcement effort has been quietly unfolding in stages during the past few months. Four of the individuals arrested have already pleaded guilty, and all received sentences of more than 20 years in prison. Those sentenced are from Illinois, Alabama, Florida and Kentucky.

Those arrested outside the U.S. were picked up by officials in Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Germany, Hungary, Kenya, the Netherlands, the Philippines, Qatar, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland.

Holder said, "It's hard for me to imagine that there will ever be a penalty that could appropriately deal with this kind of conduct. Twenty to 30 years that the people have gotten in the past is, from my perspective, barely sufficient to handle what they have done in damaging the lives of these young people."
this is morally deplorable this is pure evil in a demonic sense of the word my god! My question to you is in specific regarding to Holders last line
from my perspective, barely sufficient to handle what they have done in damaging the lives of these young people." I don't agree with him on about ninety percent of the things Holder has done but the man has a point here...just three decades in jail? and they'll probably find ways to get out..really? Something more has to be done this is horrific.

my question then I pose to you!! SFJ

Should The Death penalty in cases this barbaric and inhumane be applied? I'm not talking about all pedophiles and sex offenders though if you believe that it should be applied across the board to such people you may discuss that too. This really is monstrous and nightmarish and there is no positive outcome beyond the site being shut down and its members grabbed lives are still destroyed and people ruined and traumatized for life. Is this The Death penalty morally necessary ? or is the application of something so final that can't be taken back not worth applying even in this circumstance?

Basically I want your thoughts Should these guys be put down like dogs? Yes or No and Why?

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:26 pm

And slowly but surely, the world awakens to the horrors of pedo-pornography and structured networks which also involve a lot of high profile politicians and businessmen, and wonder why the justice is so kind towards such monsters.
Death would be too generous, too cheap.
They should at the very least be jailed for the rest of their life in the most miserable cell that man has every built. If they're promised to an afterlife of debauchery and pleasure to the sides of their god, at least, on Earth, we can make them experience something as close as possible to purgatory.

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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by sonofccn » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:38 pm

Me personally? Death. I can't fix what has been done, I can not repair the seeds of their actions but I can make sure they never do it again. Such actions they undertook, in my opinion, makes them little better than feral beasts and all such acts, rape as well as pedophile, warrent the same punishment. If you'll permit me to end a bitter post on line of arse kickery "Men get locked up, dogs get put down!"

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Praeothmin
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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:18 pm

I say it depends on how you define justice...

If you kill the bastards, then who suffers?
Their families, for a long, long time...
Most of them will be loved ones, and their families will suffer just as much at their loss as the families of the victims do...
If you throw their asses in jail, for life, then their families still have contact, can still see them, even if in a limited fashion, and the person who will suffer most will be the bastards who performed the acts...
That's what I call Justice: You cause suffering, you should suffer at least as much as what you caused...

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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:31 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:And slowly but surely, the world awakens to the horrors of pedo-pornography and structured networks which also involve a lot of high profile politicians and businessmen, and wonder why the justice is so kind towards such monsters.
Death would be too generous, too cheap.
They should at the very least be jailed for the rest of their life in the most miserable cell that man has every built. If they're promised to an afterlife of debauchery and pleasure to the sides of their god, at least, on Earth, we can make them experience something as close as possible to purgatory.
to be fair that's nothing new nor surprising-that's been a historical reality the world over for thousands of years

I think in or two of the listed countries they face the death penalty in others very little jail time due to human rights laws deeming life in prison to cruel and the like. they also tend to segregate them because prisoners supposedly tend to kill the crap out of them when in general population and prison guards tend not to care. Jeffrey Dahmer is a pretty good case of this..I don't know why they deserve special treatment though.
sonofccn wrote:Me personally? Death. I can't fix what has been done, I can not repair the seeds of their actions but I can make sure they never do it again. Such actions they undertook, in my opinion, makes them little better than feral beasts and all such acts, rape as well as pedophile, warrent the same punishment. If you'll permit me to end a bitter post on line of arse kickery "Men get locked up, dogs get put down!"
it's clean cut for you then? No moral qualms about condemning a guy to death even if on a jury for this? These crimes were terrible there's no doubt about it of course. There's always the 'but while these guys deserve to die..what if an innocent person is later taken out?"

personally I'm with you though
Praeothmin wrote:I say it depends on how you define justice...

If you kill the bastards, then who suffers?
Their families, for a long, long time...
Most of them will be loved ones, and their families will suffer just as much at their loss as the families of the victims do...
If you throw their asses in jail, for life, then their families still have contact, can still see them, even if in a limited fashion, and the person who will suffer most will be the bastards who performed the acts...
That's what I call Justice: You cause suffering, you should suffer at least as much as what you caused...
you think family members would care for people like this though? if I caught my son doing something like what was described on the article I honestly might..do something..myself and not wait for the cops maybe I'm just a hard ass like that but honestly the suffering of their loved ones shouldn't it be a secondary concern?

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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by sonofccn » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:54 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:it's clean cut for you then? No moral qualms about condemning a guy to death even if on a jury for this? These crimes were terrible there's no doubt about it of course. There's always the 'but while these guys deserve to die..what if an innocent person is later taken out?"
While I am regretful for any innocents who may have or will suffer wrongly at the end of the day there is no perfect and infalliable system for determining guilt. There will be mistakes made, sadly, for as long as humans are involved. I of course hope no one innocent is wrongly punished but that hope is the same for all levels of our justice from parking tickets to life. I don't believe that this certain level of uncernity justifies absolving one of the punishment society has demanded to be paid for their crimes.

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mojo
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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by mojo » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:18 am

to quote david cross:

'if you fuck a child to death, you should die.'

nothing more needs to be said!

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Praeothmin
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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:22 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:you think family members would care for people like this though? if I caught my son doing something like what was described on the article I honestly might..do something..myself and not wait for the cops maybe I'm just a hard ass like that but honestly the suffering of their loved ones shouldn't it be a secondary concern?
Yes, most people will still love the member of their family who performed the act...
And why should the suffering of the family members be secondary?
What kind of system causes as much harm as it supposedly protects us from?
What if some country's system decides that, if your father/brother kills, he should die, and also his family members?
Would you agree to suffer this fate, as your suffering should be a "secondary concern"?

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:01 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And slowly but surely, the world awakens to the horrors of pedo-pornography and structured networks which also involve a lot of high profile politicians and businessmen, and wonder why the justice is so kind towards such monsters.
Death would be too generous, too cheap.
They should at the very least be jailed for the rest of their life in the most miserable cell that man has every built. If they're promised to an afterlife of debauchery and pleasure to the sides of their god, at least, on Earth, we can make them experience something as close as possible to purgatory.
to be fair that's nothing new nor surprising-that's been a historical reality the world over for thousands of years
Yes, but in certain times of humanity's history, such fuckers would get gutted in front of thousands of people.
Now they abuse their powers and have their pals or communities to protect them.
And that's not the worst of all, when you add religious doctrine and sacred texts that actually fully condone such practices.
I think in or two of the listed countries they face the death penalty in others very little jail time due to human rights laws deeming life in prison to cruel and the like.
Like I care, really. :)
There won't be a jail putrid enough for such people.
they also tend to segregate them because prisoners supposedly tend to kill the crap out of them when in general population and prison guards tend not to care.
Gooood.
A pity that justice can only be found inside jail!
I wished it worked outside just as much.
Jeffrey Dahmer is a pretty good case of this..I don't know why they deserve special treatment though.
Who is he? Was he found not so guilty after his death?
If anything, the abuse of sentimentalism tends to turn our societies into places where half-arsed decisions and sissies reign supreme.

Perhaps we should burn them alive after all.
That was quite a show back then!

Mind you, I'm being quite harsh, because I do know of a case that's far more telling than what you could think of, when it comes to people put into jail when they didn't really deserve it:

Marcel Vervloesem
http://www.morkhoven.droitfondamental.e ... ven-GB.htm
http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/21381

He spent a great deal of his last years proving that children's testimonies were reliable and had to be listened to... only to get thrown into jail based on the account of one child.
Yes, the problem is that you cannot prove that the child was put under pressure to lie, but you know that it can easily happen and probably is what happened anyway.

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Re: a debate about Ethics based on a real world situation!

Post by Admiral Breetai » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:15 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Yes, but in certain times of humanity's history, such fuckers would get gutted in front of thousands of people.
Now they abuse their powers and have their pals or communities to protect them.
And that's not the worst of all, when you add religious doctrine and sacred texts that actually fully condone such practices.
the Children of god cult believe having sex with kids is a direct commandment of Jesus..for some..really odd reason
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Like I care, really. :)
There won't be a jail putrid enough for such people.
so you're actually in favor of the death penalty for child molesters?
uote]
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Gooood.
A pity that justice can only be found inside jail!
I wished it worked outside just as much.
vigilantism is illegal and all
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is he? Was he found not so guilty after his death?
If anything, the abuse of sentimentalism tends to turn our societies into places where half-arsed decisions and sissies reign supreme.
he was a guy who raped teen aged boys then dismembered them and would take their heads to work in a bowling ball and eat left over flesh he kept in the Fridge

one day he was cleaning the mess with another prisoner and the guards mysteriously got called away on an emergency only to return a few minutes later to find the other prisoners standing over his bloodied corpse he supposedly "fell"
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Mind you, I'm being quite harsh, because I do know of a case that's far more telling than what you could think of, when it comes to people put into jail when they didn't really deserve it:

Marcel Vervloesem
http://www.morkhoven.droitfondamental.e ... ven-GB.htm
http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/21381

He spent a great deal of his last years proving that children's testimonies were reliable and had to be listened to... only to get thrown into jail based on the account of one child.
Yes, the problem is that you cannot prove that the child was put under pressure to lie, but you know that it can easily happen and probably is what happened anyway.
and that is a pretty bad situation and there is no denying that does happen and it is an obligation of our legal system to do everything to make sure..a Child isn't pressured into BSing and sending an innocent guy off

that wasn't what happened here though

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