Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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mojo
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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:46 am

There is evidence. Plenty of evidence. Again, you seem to dismiss this evidence not on the basis of it being invalid, but on the basis with large numbers of people not agreeing with it. You use popularity, not merit, as a judge for some reason.
perhaps i dismiss the evidence because, as far as i know as someone who has been studying religions of all sorts for the last 20-25 years, it simply does not exist. do you know how incredibly satisfied i would be by straight proof one way or the other? i've said it before, please, show me this evidence. i'm ignorant of it! EVIDENCE, PLEASE!

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:04 am

Jesus existing does not make Christianity true. Furthermore, the founder of the Church of the FSM is alive and well from what I can remember, and we have real, absolute proof of that, unlike Jesus who probably existed.
so now jesus probably existed? interesting.
this is a real good example of why people don't like you, swst. you're flatly changing the rules here. you asked for evidence that makes christianity more plausible than fsm. so far today i have ignored that and simply answered your replies, although i could just as easily have answered EVERY SINGLE ONE with 'hey, remember how i was only required to prove christianity is more plausible than the fsm?' i really HAVE to bring it up here, because you have changed the question.
but why not? to take your new evidence here and insert it into the original debate certainly isn't going to make ME look silly.
Jesus existing does not make Christianity true.
well, it's a good thing you never asked anyone to prove that christianity is true, huh?! because otherwise, i'd be screwed.
Furthermore, the founder of the Church of the FSM is alive and well from what I can remember, and we have real, absolute proof of that, unlike Jesus who probably existed.
there are multiple reasons why this is an absurd response when we consider what you are ostensibly arguing, that there is no evidence showing christianity to be more plausible than the fsm. you know them, which is why you are changing the questions, but just for fun...
1. you yourself said five minutes ago that jesus 'probably existed'.
2. you yourself admit that the fsm does not exist.
3. you yourself admit that the creator of the fsm idea does not believe it to be true, which to my mind, shows that whether or not he is still alive is completely and utterly irrelevant. only the existence or non-existence of THE GOD of the religion, like for instance, say, JESUS or the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, would be relevant in this kind of comparison.
and oh, what was that i recall you saying a few minutes ago? number 1? that jesus 'probably existed'? well, seeing as he is the basis on which christianity is built, his existence or non-existence has some bearing on whether christianity or the fsm is more plausible, wouldn't you say?
before you waste time typing 'but the existence of jesus doesn't prove christianity', please again remember what we're debating here. you've missed this point purposely for pages and pages of thread here. now you've argued it for me, so it would be kind of hard to miss.
1. FSM does not exist according to the creator of the FSM, on whom you apparently believe some measure of relevance rests.
2. FSM, if it does exist by chance, is working to hide it's own existence and deny salvation to mankind, since it chose as it's way to show itself to the world a demonstration of how religions are false, and that it itself is false.
3. christianity bases itself on the beliefs, acts, and existence of jesus.
4. jesus 'probably existed'.
do you see? i don't have to PROVE christianity is real. i've just shown you, for the nth time, that christianity is more plausible than the FSM. USING YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:47 pm

mojo wrote:you just sidestepped EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT. you ignored evidence or twisted it to mean something completely different. you know you did. don't even pretend that you didn't. do me a favor and actually address the arguments as they are meant, or concede.
And you are surprised... because?

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:55 am

Jesus didn't probably exist he flat out existed as did a fuck load of other dudes named Jesus...it was a very popular name but Romans were good record keepers and a Jesus who was a cult leader was executed

that to my knowledge has never been disputed by any one who's actually well versed in the issue at hand or hasn't been for awhile what *is* disputed is whether or not that Jesus was The Jesus Christian pray too or some other generic cult leader of the time period...or if Jesus was merely a later Christian amalgamation of various cultists that existed in or around the decades Christ was supposed to have been alive. The other dispute is of course 'yeah Jesus totally existed..was he the son of god or just some nut job"

basically as for the hell discussion on the other page I wanted to offer my two cents. Having pure intentions and truly wanting to do gods will with love and charity and all that is from what I understand in Christian faith you are considered okay and able to get in


but I think the mainstream view is 'righteous action and faith"

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:33 am

Praeothmin wrote:
mojo wrote:you just sidestepped EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT. you ignored evidence or twisted it to mean something completely different. you know you did. don't even pretend that you didn't. do me a favor and actually address the arguments as they are meant, or concede.
And you are surprised... because?
GODDAMMIT PRAEOTHMIN, cease and desist making me realize i didn't understand how irritating he was being to you guys.

ok, so i should have hated him more? i mean, what else can i do, i already flipped out to the point that apparently everyone on staff was unable to do anything except pick up the pieces for days and i was banned for 2 weeks. i don't think i can react any harder than that.

it does irritate me that i ALREADY flipped out as hard as i can, when i really had no clue what you guys were dealing with. in sw vs. st i tend to be a spectator, so i found his antics irritating, but having now dealt with it myself, i wish i hadn't blown my load so early. i would have come up with much more profane stuff, had i just waited. i likely would have been the person who finally figured out how to punch someone in the nutsack over the internet.

the worst part of debating against swst for me personally is that i have a niggling doubt in the back of my mind about whether or not he's trolling. there's juuuuuuust enough doubt as to whether he's simply not understanding what i'm saying that i don't want to lash out for fear i'd not be justified. i mean, what if he just doesn't get it? also, i'd rather not be banned again.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:40 am

of course, there's a part of me that wants to point out that my irritation is somewhat lessened by the fact that i am absolutely certain that i am right, and he is not. and while i'm pretty sure most of the board would agree, taking real consolation from that would be doing what he falsely accused me of, an 'appeal to popularity'.

and without being able to justify my feeling that he is wrong and i am right by looking for re-enforcement from the board, i am left with the depressing thought that he and i are on even ground, because i am sure he is as certain that i am wrong as i am that he is.

i also worry that i am possibly refusing to see evidence as much as he is. perhaps we are both debating in a pointless, futile way, bypassing all possible evidence that would point in a different direction. i'm going to have to go back and reconsider his arguments. swst, any chance you'd do the same for me?

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:07 am

Standing the test of time isn't that impressive when 90% of that time had >50% of the population being illiterate and 70% of that time nobody knew that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
but these things are no longer true, and have not been true for quite some time now. science expands our understanding of the universe in leaps and bounds. we've advanced so far in that last 10% that the people who lived in the first 90% would no longer recognize us. so why is there still no evidence?
They've never been true, and that's the problem with your argument. Perception is not reality, and often times the correlation is completely non-existent.
i already commented on this bit, but i got carried away and forgot to point out that i wasn't trying to argue that for 90% of recorded history the sun revolved around the earth. as i don't spend much time debating things, i have to accept the possibility that you interpreted what i said that way and that your response was not a sad attempt to sidestep my actual argument, which was that people are no longer illiterate and at this point noone believes the sun revolves around the earth, and that science has progressed so rapidly in the last 10% that the people in the first 90% would not recognize us. again, where is the evidence? science advances in leaps and bounds, the search for evidence that disproves christianity still fails.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:07 am

Standing the test of time isn't that impressive when 90% of that time had >50% of the population being illiterate and 70% of that time nobody knew that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
but these things are no longer true, and have not been true for quite some time now. science expands our understanding of the universe in leaps and bounds. we've advanced so far in that last 10% that the people who lived in the first 90% would no longer recognize us. so why is there still no evidence?
They've never been true, and that's the problem with your argument. Perception is not reality, and often times the correlation is completely non-existent.
i already commented on this bit, but i got carried away and forgot to point out that i wasn't trying to argue that for 90% of recorded history the sun revolved around the earth. as i don't spend much time debating things, i have to accept the possibility that you interpreted what i said that way and that your response was not a sad attempt to sidestep my actual argument, which was that people are no longer illiterate and at this point noone believes the sun revolves around the earth, and that science has progressed so rapidly in the last 10% that the people in the first 90% would not recognize us. again, where is the evidence? science advances in leaps and bounds, the search for evidence that disproves christianity still fails.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:31 pm

Wow, good tactic, mojo...

I didn't think of posting my replies twice to ensure SWST saw them...

That could be the reason why he ignored so many of our arguments, as none of us double-posted in our debates with him...

Unless, of course, your double-post was accidental?

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:13 pm

mojo wrote: IF PEOPLE LIKE YOU SPEND 6,000 YEARS TRYING TO DISPROVE SOMETHING, AND FAIL, THIS CAN BE VIEWED AS EVIDENCE THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO FAIL. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHICH RELIGION HAS BEEN AROUND LONGER. IT'S ABOUT THE INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND ENERGY THAT HAS BEEN EXPENDED ATTEMPTING TO PROVE CHRISTIANITY FALSE, AND HOW THAT HAS SO FAR BEEN A COMPLETE WASTE.
Prove that they "failed". What standards to you use to determine that somebody "failed" in their disproof or that they succeeded?

Let me tell you what: you use the standards as to whether or not the public agrees with Richard Dawkins and other atheists to determine whether or not something is "disproved". Your entire argument is a not-so-cleverly concealed Appeal to Popularity.

Furthermore, I already countered your point; people haven't been trying to disprove it for 6000 years. You mean for 2000 years the religion has existed, and for the beginning of that time period it wasn't popular enough for anybody to try and disprove it. When it gained control over much of Europe, nobody dared to try and disprove it for fear of being hanged (and the Islamic world hardly tried to "disprove" it). It's only in the last few centuries that Atheism has risen to prominence, and one can argue that modern science has disproven Christianity. But again, your standards for proof and disproof is "what do the ignorant masses think?"








And your "I wasn't trying to prove that Christianity is true!" deflection was already addressed in my post. I'm beginning to wonder if you actually read it. Your arguments don't only fail in that they fail to prove that Christianity is true; they fail to prove that Christianity is plausible, which is the entire point of the thread. Your points have jack all to do with plausbility.


Whether or not Jesus was influential has nothing to do with the plausibility of Christianity. Therefore, it's irrelevant to the debate.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:22 pm

SWST wrote:You mean for 2000 years the religion has existed, and for the beginning of that time period it wasn't popular enough for anybody to try and disprove it.
Can you prove that?

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:47 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
SWST wrote:You mean for 2000 years the religion has existed, and for the beginning of that time period it wasn't popular enough for anybody to try and disprove it.
Can you prove that?
he can't that's an absolute lie or a massively ignorant assumption Christianity was so popular The Roman Empire not only saw it as a threat they're own faiths directly competed against it..and they tried to exterminate it

seriously SWST this is the shit you learn in middle school history classes

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:22 am

i love the double post remark. i actually have double-posted EVERY ARGUMENT up til the point at which he started responding again. the last one was an accident though.
aren't you on staff? if so, maybe next time just fix it if it bothers you.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:51 pm

Did I say it bothered me?
I simply wanted to point out your double post in a funny way...

And anyways, I don't got that much powers, I can only warn, split threads, but I can't delete double-posts...
But you should be able to though... :)

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:32 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
SWST wrote:You mean for 2000 years the religion has existed, and for the beginning of that time period it wasn't popular enough for anybody to try and disprove it.
Can you prove that?
Doubtful considering most religions are making similar claims regarding existence and god and all claim they are right and others are wrong.

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