Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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Admiral Breetai
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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:04 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
You don't say?

So instead of being the asshole that has to explain the obvious, or the style over substance asshole that spends his entire post moaning about how offensive this thread is to Christians, why don't you actually answer the question? Why don't you explain to me how the Judeo Christian God has more evidence supporting it or is more logically plausible than the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
well for one The Judeo Christian god has more evidence supporting it than say, anything you believe in regarding star wars. I find this amusing SWSt you can't even defend yourself when bashing the right your so completely inexperienced ignorant and parroting other peoples arguments you're going to attempt this?

How about this, prove to me God does not exist show me scientific evidence god does not exist and if you link me a wiki page to Lucy I'll be disappointed because evolution and the documented scientific evidence of how this universe was formed do not directly contradict the existence of god- and every one from Newton to Einstein has said as much themselves

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:46 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
well for one The Judeo Christian god has more evidence supporting it than say, anything you believe in regarding star wars. I find this amusing SWSt you can't even defend yourself when bashing the right your so completely inexperienced ignorant and parroting other peoples arguments you're going to attempt this?

How about this, prove to me God does not exist show me scientific evidence god does not exist and if you link me a wiki page to Lucy I'll be disappointed because evolution and the documented scientific evidence of how this universe was formed do not directly contradict the existence of god- and every one from Newton to Einstein has said as much themselves
Being incapable of proving a negative is not proving a positive bud.

While i am pretty much a atheist it seems pretty clear to me that the bible and works like it were written by the people with the knowledge and prejudices of the era each holy book has, the old testament for example is chock full of bigoted evil ect justified with the words "cos god says so".

People have confused doctorine and the church as being messengers from god since the concept was invented but in all cases it is really just a bunch of greedy people out for power supported by in some cases good and kind (although somewhat deluded) people.

For a good example of this look at how enjoyable SW was when you were young and then look what the nutbags on SDN have tried to do to it and created....:).
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:04 am

General Donner wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:So why would God kill people in floods if they could still change?
Because they wouldn't? That you have the ability to do something doesn't mean you're actually going to. I'm certain I could move to China if I wanted to -- doesn't mean I will. And God is omniscient; He knows whether you're ever going to repent or not.

In that case, it appears no one was.
ah, good old swst, now i see what you were trying to do. clearly you were trying to open up a genuine debate and enlighten us with knowledge. my apologies for doubting you, best buddy.
i have to say that swst has inadvertently created a possibly interesting debate. donner, you bring up an important point and one that remains unsolved so far as i know.
1. God is good and merciful, and wishes noone pain or suffering.
2. God knows all, including
General Donner wrote:..whether you're ever going to repent or not.
3. If a person chooses to reject God, he is forced to send them to Hell, where they will suffer for all eternity in the worst ways imaginable.
2. God knows all, including
General Donner wrote:..whether you're ever going to repent or not.
So the question: why does God create people whom he already knows he will be forced to condemn to Hell, given that we accept both points 1 and 2?
this is not mockery or trolling. i am seriously interested.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by General Donner » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:19 pm

No, I appreciate the question. There's a considerable difference between being genuinely interested and just trolling.

However, like I said before I won't presume to say I know God's mind, or why He would do anything. For me as a human to try and comprehend an infinite intellect is futile at best.

If I were to offer my own speculation once more (which is at most woefully incomplete), I'd say existence is always preferable to nonexistence. However bad life is, it's better to be alive than dead. I'd personally be vastly more terrified by the notion of total oblivion than that of eternal conscious punishment.

Though I know this is something not everyone will agree with.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:50 pm

mojo wrote:So the question: why does God create people whom he already knows he will be forced to condemn to Hell, given that we accept both points 1 and 2?
Because we are an experiment from God?
And he created us with free will to see how many of us would actually turn out good people, and how many would turn out to believe Mike wong's bullshit... ;)

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Trinoya » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:21 pm

random trolling by SWST
If you really want to know why one religion is more credible than the other, one would really recommend you actually read both religions holy books rather than asking on an internet forum.


To this end: The FSM was created to challenge the concept of teaching theology in science, not as a religion, by default its own creator maintains that it is less credible than the other religions since he had to admit to the reasons for its creation, which are still contested in court rooms today, and are still a point specifically in favor of keeping theological concepts of creationism and scientific concepts of creationism separate in the school system.


Also: Troll thread is trolly.


Edit: Fixed minor errors.
Last edited by Trinoya on Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:40 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:[

Being incapable of proving a negative is not proving a positive bud.
no but he is charging that he has absolute proof that debunks the existence of god and thus invalidates Christianity as a whole I'm just asking him to back it up
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:[While i am pretty much a atheist it seems pretty clear to me that the bible and works like it were written by the people with the knowledge and prejudices of the era each holy book has, the old testament for example is chock full of bigoted evil ect justified with the words "cos god says so".
I think you missed my point I'm not defending the bible (though people who claim its all false are full of shit..there were many historical figures mentioned and documented in the bible who did in fact exist)

[
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:[]
People have confused doctorine and the church as being messengers from god since the concept was invented but in all cases it is really just a bunch of greedy people out for power supported by in some cases good and kind (although somewhat deluded) people
but we know all this I'm addressing SWST's biggoted and insulting thread and his forceful attack on other peoples culture/beliefs not "the screw ups of the bible"
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:[For a good example of this look at how enjoyable SW was when you were young and then look what the nutbags on SDN have tried to do to it and created....:).
it's still enjoyable I don't allow demented fanatics to crap on my style nor do most Christians I would assume

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:56 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:
no but he is charging that he has absolute proof that debunks the existence of god and thus invalidates Christianity as a whole I'm just asking him to back it up
Even Richard Dawkins says he is only 99.99999999% certain that god does not exist because a proper scientist does not claim anything he cannot prove 100%.
I think you missed my point I'm not defending the bible (though people who claim its all false are full of shit..there were many historical figures mentioned and documented in the bible who did in fact exist).

There are a lot of nice things said in the bible and it does mention historical figures some of whom very likely did exist but it is not a accurate historical document in any way shape or form.
but we know all this I'm addressing SWST's bigoted and insulting thread and his forceful attack on other peoples culture/beliefs not "the screw ups of the bible"
He is just looking to troll that much is obvious so spend your time pointing that out and cutting him down as it is good fun.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:18 pm

General Donner wrote: Because they wouldn't? That you have the ability to do something doesn't mean you're actually going to. I'm certain I could move to China if I wanted to -- doesn't mean I will. And God is omniscient; He knows whether you're ever going to repent or not.

In that case, it appears no one was.
Which is an inconsistency in the Bible. Your justification is assuming that God applies His omniscience to good use. Yet in other parts of the Bible, God "tests" people and puts people in situations when He knows they will do bad, despite His Omniscience.

I keep trying to capitalize "H" out of respect, however egotistical requiring it seems.

By the way, when I'm "celebrating" Good Friday with some of my Christian relatives, I don't eat meat out of respect. Actually, I try not to eat meat; sometimes I just forget.


If that's so, then I'm sorry, and not just as an empty figure of speech. Though your arguments and opinions so far sound so extremely similar to what he's saying, it really is hard to think they're independently developed.
Well you're wrong. I've been an atheist well before I knew anything about the SW v ST debate. In fact, at first, I wasn't sure if Wong was a liberal or conservative; I actually suspected the latter when he strangely defended the highly conservative Galactic Empire, trying to draw an analogy with Alderaan and Hiroshima.
1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 are questions I can't answer. I can't know why God would do this or that. I'm just human. I could offer my speculation, but that'd be quite lengthy and wouldn't be very useful to you from the looks of things. If you really want it, I can elaborate on that stuff later. But not tonight.

I'll answer 2 and 7 in brief, since those are questions about me, not God.
That's OK Donner, but I could use the same logic to justify worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster; attribute all miracles to him and then justify the illogical nature of Him by claiming that He acts in mysterious ways.
God isn't limited by humanity. I believe in the God of the Bible on its authority, because its teachings provide me with the best explanation I have seen for the facts of human existence.
You mean the best explanation that has been published in various languages and has sold countless billions of copies. With the time and motivation, I could publish a book that far more plausibly "explains" creation without the silly stories (Tower of Babel comes to mind), rape, genocide, scientific inaccuracies and logical inaccuracies.

In fact, there already are thousands of these on the market. Go read A Brief History of Time. It provides an explanation for X and Y better than the Bible.


I don't pray for anything on my own behalf, except forgiveness for my sins and greater understanding of Scripture. For others, I pray for similar enlightenment for them.
Ah, my bad. There are many people that pray to God for petty things such as a job raise or a better parking seat, which seems to confuse me. Funny; or not, that God would listen to such prayers while not hearing the collective World Peace prayers and "Help us! We're starving in Africa!" prayers around the world.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by General Donner » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:04 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Which is an inconsistency in the Bible. Your justification is assuming that God applies His omniscience to good use. Yet in other parts of the Bible, God "tests" people and puts people in situations when He knows they will do bad, despite His Omniscience.
I don't see an inconsistency. That's what's called "grace" in the Christian faith. Instead of delivering punishment right away, God withholds it. The Bible records that after the Flood, God promised that it wouldn't be repeated, even if the modern world might deserve it just as much as the antediluvians did.

Testing, as far as I can tell, is not for God's benefit, but for ours. By probing the limits of our faith and human ability, we emerge as stronger people.
I keep trying to capitalize "H" out of respect, however egotistical requiring it seems.

By the way, when I'm "celebrating" Good Friday with some of my Christian relatives, I don't eat meat out of respect. Actually, I try not to eat meat; sometimes I just forget.
How considerate of you.
That's OK Donner, but I could use the same logic to justify worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster; attribute all miracles to him and then justify the illogical nature of Him by claiming that He acts in mysterious ways.
Feel free to.
You mean the best explanation that has been published in various languages and has sold countless billions of copies. With the time and motivation, I could publish a book that far more plausibly "explains" creation without the silly stories (Tower of Babel comes to mind), rape, genocide, scientific inaccuracies and logical inaccuracies.

In fact, there already are thousands of these on the market. Go read A Brief History of Time. It provides an explanation for X and Y better than the Bible.
I already have. But generally, if I'm going to read pop science, I prefer stuff with a little more numbers in it than Hawking. Books on that level don't really explain anything -- they just pontificate, tell me "this is how it is" (or more often, "this is kind of like how it is if I dumb it down for you plebes") without actually showing the work or evidence behind it. Asimov's a little better for a beginner, but even he's a little light on the actual science for my taste.

If I get to pick my choice of books for physics, cosmology, biology etc, I'll generally take a high school or low level college textbook over pop science. They've got much more "meat" in them. But I digress.

Maybe I phrased myself poorly. When I said "the facts of human existence" I meant something more like, I don't know, "the human condition"? (I believe I already said English isn't my first language, so bear with me if I get stuff wrong or imprecise.) I don't look for equations, general relativities and gravitational constants in the Bible. Rather, stuff on us humans -- people. How we work, where we're going, all those old quandaries that "science" can't answer any more today than in Sargon II's time.
Ah, my bad. There are many people that pray to God for petty things such as a job raise or a better parking seat, which seems to confuse me. Funny; or not, that God would listen to such prayers while not hearing the collective World Peace prayers and "Help us! We're starving in Africa!" prayers around the world.
If there are any human-controlled factors weighing in on whether prayers are actually answered, that'd depend primarily on faith, according to the Bible. So it might well be possible that a devout man praying for himself and for a comparatively petty favor would be answered, while a shallow believer (or nonbeliever/non-Christian/Christian heretic) praying for a greater good would be ignored.

Then again, any prayer answered (or divine intervention without prayer) is an undeserved act of God's grace on our behalf, given not for anything we do or think, but because of the good God's mercy. Just like our Salvation in Christ. We can never expect, much less demand, anything from God.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:31 pm

Personally, I'd like to have The Mighty Thor versus the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can His Noodlely Goodness withstand Thor's hammer? True Believers want to know!
-Mike

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:17 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Even Richard Dawkins says he is only 99.99999999% certain that god does not exist because a proper scientist does not claim anything he cannot prove 100%.
you know that i know that evidently the OP'er does not
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: There are a lot of nice things said in the bible and it does mention historical figures some of whom very likely did exist but it is not a accurate historical document in any way shape or form.
sure some of it's very politically tainted and all i'm not disputing that just saying it aint 100% wrong
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
He is just looking to troll that much is obvious so spend your time pointing that out and cutting him down as it is good fun.
it is obvious isn't it? and his subsequent rage when failing is especially fun

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:09 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Personally, I'd like to have The Mighty Thor versus the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can His Noodlely Goodness withstand Thor's hammer? True Believers want to know!
-Mike
"Flying Spaghetti Monster" vs its arch nemesis "The Twirling fork of Nom".

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:14 am

Praeothmin wrote:
mojo wrote:So the question: why does God create people whom he already knows he will be forced to condemn to Hell, given that we accept both points 1 and 2?
Because we are an experiment from God?
And he created us with free will to see how many of us would actually turn out good people, and how many would turn out to believe Mike wong's bullshit... ;)
but the idea that god is not omniscient is kind of a nono according to both christians and the bible. so as humorous as the second part was, i don't think we can allow that as an option.

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Re: Christianity vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Post by mojo » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:16 am

General Donner wrote:No, I appreciate the question. There's a considerable difference between being genuinely interested and just trolling.

However, like I said before I won't presume to say I know God's mind, or why He would do anything. For me as a human to try and comprehend an infinite intellect is futile at best.

If I were to offer my own speculation once more (which is at most woefully incomplete), I'd say existence is always preferable to nonexistence. However bad life is, it's better to be alive than dead. I'd personally be vastly more terrified by the notion of total oblivion than that of eternal conscious punishment.

Though I know this is something not everyone will agree with.
thank you for replying, but there are multiple instances of the bible specifically stating that hell is bad enough that it would be better for anyone who ends up there to have never been born. hyperbole?

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