Liberals vs Conservatives: History

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Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:17 pm

Here are a list of questions. Try and answer whether it was conservatives or liberals that fit the answer.

1. Which side supported slavery?

2. Which side opposed womans' rights?

3. Which side opposed labor laws?

4. Which side supported the spoils system?

5. Which side opposed Civil Rights?

6. Which side opposes gay marriage?

7. Which side contains all the fundies?

8. Which side is the KKK on?

9. Which side is the westbro bapist church on?

10. Which side has lower average IQ's?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:41 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
10. Which side has lower average IQ's?
you realize this is elitist thinking and highly anti democratic right? 'only the intelligent should have a say in things"- such thinking is I find typical of people like you who are often times more Grandiose and self acclaimed "smart" rather than you know possessing the virtues that make intelligence applicable to a given situation like "common sense" the ability to think rationally with out succumbing to intense rage and resentment (something you've catastrophically failed to do on something so irrelevant as vs debating online) and a true sense of intellectual humility.

simply put such concerns have no basis in a democracy and to suggest an education level and an IQ have any bearing on who should vote as your thread so derisively implies as you attack conservatives is not only prejudicial it's not moral

also it's a nice trick question historically The Democrats were pro slavery pro KKK and what have you...whether or not you consider the old school Dems "liberal" is entirely up to ones understanding of history or rather how biased said understanding is

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:52 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote: you realize this is elitist thinking and highly anti democratic right?
How so? Don't you think that the wellbeing of 300 million people should not be handled by idiots?
'only the intelligent should have a say in things"-
Strawman. I never said that.
such thinking is I find typical of people like you who are often times more Grandiose and self acclaimed "smart" rather than you know possessing the virtues that make intelligence applicable to a given situation like "common sense" the ability to think rationally with out succumbing to intense rage and resentment (something you've catastrophically failed to do on something so irrelevant as vs debating online) and a true sense of intellectual humility.
Right, so screaming about white power is humble now? ROFLAMO?

simply put such concerns have no basis in a democracy
So you think that intelligence has no bearing on democracy? Are we to vote without analyzing the different candidates/options?
and to suggest an education level and an IQ have any bearing on who should vote as your thread so derisively implies as you attack conservatives is not only prejudicial it's not moral
It's completely moral. If you had to "vote" on who gets to perform a life changing surgery on you, do you vote for the Phd Harvard Surgeon with two decades of experience or Joe the Plumber? Why shouldn't this apply to government? Do you want an idiot to have the nuclear codes?

also it's a nice trick question historically The Democrats were pro slavery pro KKK and what have you...whether or not you consider the old school Dems "liberal" is entirely up to ones understanding of history or rather how biased said understanding is
Too bad for you that the old democrats were conservative, while the old republicans were liberal. I'm not debating arbitrary parties, I'm debating ideologies, which just happens to be democrats = liberals and republicans = conservative right now.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:23 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: How so? Don't you think that the wellbeing of 300 million people should not be handled by idiots?
it's called paying attention and reading comprehension try it some time

those 300 hundred millions people a sizeable majority have either average IQ's or slightly above or slightly beneath..either that or they flat out don't give a fuck about intellectual persuits..or politics or the sciences..they care about working getting paid going to church (which ever faith they practice) and feeding the family while paying them bills

a good chunk of those are likely conservative

they should be allowed to vote regardless anything else is an affront to liberty and is an idea that should be resisted by any means necessary
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Strawman. I never said that.
your attitude in general and the condescending hostile tone of this thread implies that

and it's a monstrous notion

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Right, so screaming about white power is humble now? ROFLAMO?
what the fuck? are you a crazy person? don't take that as an insult I literally am shocked at that either you just tossed out the mother of all red herrings...or you genuinely believe that people who don't have a high IQ are all racist..in which case I'm fairly certain you offended more then forty percent of the planets population much less the US population

either way when the premise of your entire thread is to imply that people capable of such conduct as above should not contribute to society in any capacity that involves big decisions - you probably shouldn't you know..make a post like that because going by your standards that post just invalidated your right to vote
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: So you think that intelligence has no bearing on democracy? Are we to vote without analyzing the different candidates/options?
I think that implying "intellectualism" needs to be the basis for a persons right to vote..as opposed to merely existing and being a Citizen is absolutely evil and monstrous..

while there does exist a great deal of stupid voters and theres precedence for this- such things are not to be the deciding factor in who gets to vote...

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: It's completely moral.
so what's next? preventing them from raising in society? or a mandatory IQ test before having kids?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: If you had to "vote" on who gets to perform a life changing surgery on you, do you vote for the Phd Harvard Surgeon with two decades of experience or Joe the Plumber?[
the point is some one stupid enough to vote for Joe The Plumber in that situation has a right to do so. that cannot be given or taken away by anything that isn't inherently vicious and anti free society.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Why shouldn't this apply to government? Do you want an idiot to have the nuclear codes?
the idiot who votes for that clown has the right to vote period. Take that away from him and you condemn every one around you...to something less than freedom

you are also applying that a high IQ and a strong education and all that prevents people from being Racists..or Religious fanatics and that's completely and utterly wrong
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Too bad for you that the old democrats were conservative, while the old republicans were liberal. I'm not debating arbitrary parties, I'm debating ideologies, which just happens to be democrats = liberals and republicans = conservative right now.
what makes it too bad for me? why should I care

I'm taking issue with your premise which is

A: "intelligent people are the only people who should decide the outcome of an election and run our nation"

B: people that are smart aren't capable of believing in some massively stupid things..such as Racism..or the right of humans to own other humans...or hell even being a completely insane religious fanatic (this I'ma laugh at if you think believing in god implies a low IQ)

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:00 pm

SWST wrote:Do you want an idiot to have the nuclear codes?
Like when Bush Jr. was voted in, you mean?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by sonofccn » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:12 pm

Well as Admiral Breetai said defining if a certain group in the past was liberal, and if you mean classical liberal or progressive-liberal, is a mammoth and complex undertaking which, under certain circumstances, might be intellectually stimulating and informative. however StarWarsStarTrek is just trying to stir up trouble with a cheap gotcha moment, apparently believing this is a bastion of bedrock conservatism, and likely put no more thought into this than the deepness of a puddle.

Just for the record however I'm a Conservative-Republican and proud of it. :)
Long live the Union! Long live Texas! ;)

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:09 pm

the point is some one stupid enough to vote for Joe The Plumber in that situation has a right to do so. that cannot be given or taken away by anything that isn't inherently vicious and anti free society.
But when voting for president, that vote affects EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY AND ABROAD. If you decide to have Joe the Plumber do it, you screw yourself and indirectly screw people dependent on you. If you cast your vote for an idiot, you screw over everybody whose lives will be dependent on who is President.

And your argument is a ridiculous tautology. Obviously, you have the right to vote conservative if you want to, I didn't deny that. My point is that most conservative policies are idiotic, which is my own (educated) opinion, and your response is to blast me with rhetoric about other people being entitled to their opinion? I understand that you can vote conservative if you want to; it's just that it's typically idiotic to do so. That guy can have joe the plumber if he wants to* for the surgery, but he/she'd be an idiot.

*And as I recall, it's not legal to have someone without credentials do surgery on you.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:10 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
But when voting for president, that vote affects EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY AND ABROAD. If you decide to have Joe the Plumber do it, you screw yourself and indirectly screw people dependent on you. If you cast your vote for an idiot, you screw over everybody whose lives will be dependent on who is President
irrelevant people have the right to vote for that idiot even if they themselves have the brains of a turtle this should never change


StarWarsStarTrek wrote:And your argument is a ridiculous tautology. Obviously, you have the right to vote conservative if you want to, I didn't deny that.
no but as noted by every one else in this thread it's very clear you believe that those people should not be allowed too
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:My point is that most conservative policies are idiotic, which is my own (educated) opinion,
educated? you who are patronizing intolerant and refuse to listen to others educated? that's a bad joke...your own post smacks of some one who's trying to put on an heir of "intellectualism" but your conduct is so hostile so anti open minded so vicious that I doubt you did more then go to wikipedia and look at the opening title for "tautology"
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:and your response is to blast me with rhetoric about other people being entitled to their opinion?
that's not rhetoric and if it's lost on you I am deeply concerned
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I understand that you can vote conservative if you want to; it's just that it's typically idiotic to do so
based on what? your opinion? the opinion of allot of people? it's idiotic? many people would disagree with you...are they idiots?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: *And as I recall, it's not legal to have someone without credentials do surgery on you.
but it isn't illegal for some one with no credentials or even a highschool education to vote...and it never should be

you also completely ignored this
B: people that are smart aren't capable of believing in some massively stupid things..such as Racism..or the right of humans to own other humans...or hell even being a complete religious fanatic (this I'ma laugh at if you think believing in god implies a low IQ)

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:19 am

1. Which side supported slavery?

2. Which side opposed womans' rights?

3. Which side opposed labor laws?

4. Which side supported the spoils system?

5. Which side opposed Civil Rights?

6. Which side opposes gay marriage?

7. Which side contains all the fundies?

8. Which side is the KKK on?

9. Which side is the westbro bapist church on?

10. Which side has lower average IQ's?
I would say that it depended on the individual



It's completely moral. If you had to "vote" on who gets to perform a life changing surgery on you, do you vote for the Phd Harvard Surgeon with two decades of experience or Joe the Plumber? Why shouldn't this apply to government? Do you want an idiot to have the nuclear codes?
If you think that knowing the difference between a Phd Harvard Surgeon with two decades of experience and Joe the Plumber requires a high IQ then you are the idiot.

1. Just what IQ would you consider to be a acceptable cut off point?.

2. How long do you think it will be before your society will become elitist where those who qualify for the high IQ band consider themselves above the laws that the lesser humans have to abide by?.

3. Considering your arguments are just parroted from Wangs and others like him you know you would be one of those not allowed to lead due to voting being based on actual IQ not being a moronic butt snorkeling sheep right?.
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Cocytus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:21 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Which side opposed Civil Rights?
As a matter of total votes, more Democrats in both houses voted for the Civil Rights Act than did Republicans. However, as a matter of percentages, a higher percentage of Republicans in both houses voted for the Civil Rights Act than did Democrats.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Which side opposes gay marriage?
Conservatives, mostly. But there are noteworthy exceptions which make the issue more nuanced than you would like to believe. The Log Cabin Republicans fought successfully to have Don't Ask Don't Tell declared unconstitutional in a California District Court case called Log Cabin Republicans vs United States. Additionally, there are conservative voices that have come out in favor of gay marriage because it is the right thing to do. Theodore Olsen, former Solicitor General to George W Bush, is a leading conservative advocate of gay rights. Vaughn Walker, the California judge who overturned Proposition 8, is a conservative initially nominated by Ronald Reagan.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Which side has all the fundies
Fundies come in all shapes and colors. Atheism has fundamentalists (atheism in Communist countries, for example, where religion of any kind was actively suppressed) feminism has fundamentalists (Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas etc.)
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Which side has lower average IQs?
So we should have literacy tests? It's always better not to try disenfranchising anyone, because the tactics you would use can just as easily be used against you.

If you want real debate, here's a question you can try:

Which side supports the rights of minorities over the will of the majority? And which of those two should prevail?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:36 am

Cocytus wrote:
So we should have literacy tests? It's always better not to try disenfranchising anyone, because the tactics you would use can just as easily be used against you.

If you want real debate, here's a question you can try:

Which side supports the rights of minorities over the will of the majority? And which of those two should prevail?
My IQ came out as very high when the wife convinced me to get tested years ago however i have little or no formal education.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by mojo » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:41 am

can i be the ONLY ONE interested in the answers to these questions? regardless of intent, it is certainly interesting. i would love to have the answers and sources in a later post, swst.

and i do think in all honesty that there probably should be some sort of system in place to check the intelligence of potential voters, or, at the ABSOLUTE LEAST, an intelligence test which, if failed, negates a person's candidacy for the presidency. this is not bigotry, it's a necessity for the future survival of the country and it's citizens. absolutely serious.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:49 am

Now, I'm not exactly conservative (see here for a graph of many SFJ residents on Political Compass) but this strikes me as a rather provocative opening post. You'd be more likely, I think, to get productive discussion on the issue if you simply had said:

"Here are the reasons why I think liberals are better than conservatives: (list)."

As Cocytus points out, it's generally a little more nuanced of an issue than your questions suggest. Also, I am fairly suspicious of any claims that conservative or liberal people have a higher IQ; while I might think that liberals are smarter, I would want to see iron-clad proof before proceeding to make such a broad claim.

For example, within the US, it is very well documented that blacks score poorly on IQ tests, but generally vote for the Democrats, the more liberal of the US's two main parties. So any study of liberalism and IQ in the US must also address the issue of race and IQ - either controlling for it (in which case you arguably aren't actually presenting the average IQ of a liberal or average IQ of a conservative in the US), or not controlling for it (in which case your measurement says more about race than intelligence).

That's race. Then there's social class and income. And education, something which is difficult to disentangle from IQ, especially in conjunction with career choice. High IQ conservatives may not be aiming for the same sorts of jobs as high IQ liberals. I can believe that if we control for all other relevant variables, liberals tend to have higher IQs, but I would still want to see sources demonstrating that.

Then, finally, there's the problem of how to define a liberal or conservative. There isn't a widely accepted objective standard for sorting people into the two categories. If you vary your controls and your method of measuring liberality and conservatism, I wouldn't be surprised if you could work your way into saying that either group has a higher IQ using just studies of the same country (e.g., the US).

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Trinoya » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:21 am

Whoa... I... really SWST? REALLY?


Let me inform you of a few facts you might be interested in: History is not black and white. Political parties and their values are not black and white. These things change over time, and their reasoning behind supporting said changes also alter overtime.

Furthermore political events are not black and white either, and are far more complicated than which side supports what. Even the westboro baptist church isn't a 'political' or 'religious' movement as many like to espouse, but rather is more appropriately described as a manipulation of the law in order to generate profit. The short of it is trying to sum up complicated moments in history as a purely conservative or liberal based idea is, at its best, dishonest.

It is entirely clear you don't understand or even respect the wide range of motivations and beliefs present in any political system if you think it is boiled down to liberal and conservative. Simply making a wild statement such as, "Which side has all the fundies" is quite telling and for the record doesn't make YOU look good, reasoned, intelligent, or even balanced, especially in the sense of a debate or political scene.

It tells me that you are partisan in the truest sense, that is to say you fully support, blindly, one party over the other, and couldn't comprehend voting for the other in anyway shape or form. That's terrible thinking, it's dangerous, and it destroys a political system.

It reflects heavily on how you've been debating here in general, and is telling in your opinion of those who may disagree with you (this of course being speculation on my part, for all I know you're Mr. Bush himself). I'm honestly curious if you have ever even considered the possibility of not voting on your own party line and perhaps voting against it. I'm honestly curious if you've ever given the time of day to arguments against your 'side' as it were.

Doing that may be the first step to you presenting a good argument, just a bit of advice. I'm saddened that I have true doubt that you'll consider it.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:26 am

fun little fact: there were a vast number of religious Christian conservatives in both the north and the south who were vehemently opposed to slavery and were so specifically because they believed God said it was wrong.

SWSt these people for years made up the bulk of the anti slavery side and a major source of the vote that got Lincoln into office. These people mocked and derided by the South as 'ignorant fundamentalists" and "dangerous zealots" among other things that kinda draws parallels with todays "pop culture atheists" deriding Christianity..were largely responsible for the united states of Americas end of slavery.

These were the same people that were utterly revolted at the thought of Darwins theory the same people who believed Catholics shouldn't be allowed to vote because the poor ignorant souls would be manipulated by the pope and..other really die hard hawkish views

some of the most Liberal minds of the middle ages were friggen devout Catholics and held many modern conservative views

I'd challenge you for example to sit there and prove to me that a man like Rodrigo Borgia or Michelangelo Machiavelli and the likes weren't intelligent and far more capable then you

Certainly Imhotep a man who created well math practically and architecture a man who owned slaves and worshipped a bird man god with a golden Dildo and believed the universe was created when a frog riding a giant turtled jacked off in an ocean...was a paragon of high intelligence yet would not fit in your criteria because of his beliefs..thus should not be allowed to contribute to society?

what about Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson?

sonofccn wrote:Well as Admiral Breetai said defining if a certain group in the past was liberal, and if you mean classical liberal or progressive-liberal, is a mammoth and complex undertaking
it's especially difficult when you consider that before the cold war "liberal" and "conservative" in terms of definition was reversed with each meaning it's opposite and thus you had monsters like Andrew Jackson who while was basically one of the manliest world leaders of the modern world...was also pretty close to "evil villain" evil probably would of been called and herald as "a Liberal"

where as if you called him that around any dem they'd flip out..

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