Liberals vs Conservatives: History

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StarWarsStarTrek
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:08 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:
SWSt I'm calling you to task address his opinion and debunk his argument and don't cowardly run and hide behind strawman arguments or I'll report you for deliberately and dishonestly ignoring another posters point something you have been banned for recently

do it..or else
Why don't you logically justify your claim that I am using a strawman argument, instead of just throwing a fancy word out there because you think that it makes you sound sophisticated?
no modern conservative view point is "stop subsidizing the poor creating an entire class of resentful useless fucks who think the world owes them and completely loose their volition or incentive to contribute to society in any meaningful way"
No, the modern conservative viewpoint is "lower government spending unless if it's to protect the right, fund big armies, quash science, support 'traditional family values' or keep gays from getting more rights!"
and you know what? it's pretty cold but their not wrong I live in a city that was more or less made what it is in terms of being a major center for politics money and tourism globally because of Cuban refugees that have been immigrated here constantly since the fifties and you know what? they're all desperate to escape that the mere thought of any aid or financial support from other peoples money in tax money is..disgusting to them and they may have a point
Please rephrase your statement in a more readable fashion. What I got from this was "There are lots of Cuban immigrants that are desperate to escape and don't want any financial support", which is self contradictory.


which you should probably stop committing almost every time you post
You just don't get the fallacy, do you? Donner's logic is this:

1. Your statement is subjective.

2. Therefore, it is not valid.

Notice how this argument can be used to disprove anything?

this is an enormous distortion Conservatives from decades to centuries ago voted for this no modern conservative supports slavery...you harping on this is an absolute and distasteful dodge and redherring on your part
Red herring on your part, as my point was entirely related to the past history of conservatism and its poor track record. This may seem like a surprise to you, but when examining the track record of something, you have to look at the past.
so in the mist of all this nearly schizophrenic rambling did you have anything that resembled a point other then to insult half the forum and mock a good chunk of the political world? because you basically are trolling here.
Clearly you are not reading my post correctly. Show me where in that section of my posts I mentioned or alluded to the board in a negative light. No, you can't, you just sprout things that have nothing to do with the point that I'm making. Let me phrase my point in simpler words:


As long as you agree with 1 and 2, my argument stands. 1 is a fact, so it's difficult for you to hypothetically argue against. 2 is technically not a fact, but next to nobody in the modern world disagrees with slavery being inherently immoral. If they do, then I can elaborate on and logically justify my corollary. Otherwise, trying to invalidating my argument by calling it subjective (when all arguments are by definition subjective) is a fallacy.



based on a heavily distorted representation of their views based on you deliberately dishonestly bringing up something that has almost not relevance to modern conservatives
Why are modern conservatives suddenly different from old conservatives? They still follow the same mindset and ideology, an ideology that's been proven to not work time and time again. It's like somebody arguing that a communism doesn't work by pointing to the USSR, and then you complaining that they're "distorting" things because they used an "old" example.

Specific policies have changed (modern conservatives would actually be extremely liberal by old times; proof that reality has a liberal bias, as over time the world view shifts to the left) but their ideological stance and mindset has not. Logic and morals in terms of strict right and wrong don't magically change over a few centuries, merely our perception of them.

you wanna talk about all the things Liberals have fucked up over the last century? iz a long list my brotha!
Feel free to try. The fact is that all of the long term goals of "radical" liberals; abolition of slavery, civil rights, woman's suffrage, etc have come to pass, while the conservative goal was to keep the status quo. By definition, conservatism is against progress ("conservative"; go look up the definition), and therefore when progress inevitably occurs, the conservatives get stuck on the wrong side of history.

Notice a common trend in history? There will be X. X could be a group of people, a new concept, a new science, etc, but it will be "different" from tradition and different from "normal" people. The Liberals will always support X, while the conservatives will always oppose X. In the end, X will be granted a chance and/or civil liberties, and then the cycle continues, as another X comes around.

X's in history include Galileo's ideas, Evolution, Minorities, Child Labor protection laws, abolition of slavery, Civil Rights and Gay rights.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:23 pm

So the Conservatives, like, say, the US Republican party, always voted for slavery, right?
They hate progress, and love status quo?
Wow, you should have told that to Abraham Lincoln...
Was he not a Republican, the party that best represents conservatism in the US?
Are you sure you have all your facts right?

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:13 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Why don't you logically justify your claim that I am using a strawman argument, instead of just throwing a fancy word out there because you think that it makes you sound sophisticated?[
no see that's what you do the only pseudo-intellectual on this board is you and that's a statement of fact. Now that being said your post was meant to troll the forum and insult your theory is based off outdated morality that even the most liberal minded adhered to in some form or another. Your premise in this thread is merely 'let me insult members and troll sfj with politics instead of wars vs trek"

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: No, the modern conservative viewpoint is "lower government spending unless if it's to protect the right, fund big armies, quash science, support 'traditional family values' or keep gays from getting more rights!"
quash science? in what sense/ the war against stem cells and cloning aside us capitalist pig conservatives love science it invents new things we make money off of and new ways to blow up enemies *rolls eyes*
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Please rephrase your statement in a more readable fashion. What I got from this was "There are lots of Cuban immigrants that are desperate to escape and don't want any financial support", which is self contradictory.
you know exactly what i said

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
You just don't get the fallacy, do you? Donner's logic is this:
no i get it but your guilty of similar and thus loose the right to tell donner anything
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Red herring on your part, as my point was entirely related to the past history of conservatism and its poor track record. This may seem like a surprise to you, but when examining the track record of something, you have to look at the past.
maybe your misunderstanding me i'm saying your entire premise is invalid due to the fact that no modern conservative would support such things

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Clearly you are not reading my post correctly.
yes i have you patronizing clown. and you are in fact doing this specifically to troll and mock the place and its posters
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
As long as you agree with 1 and 2, my argument stands. 1 is a fact, so it's difficult for you to hypothetically argue against. 2 is technically not a fact, but next to nobody in the modern world disagrees with slavery being inherently immoral. If they do, then I can elaborate on and logically justify my corollary. Otherwise, trying to invalidating my argument by calling it subjective (when all arguments are by definition subjective) is a fallacy.

you done with your crap yet?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Why are modern conservatives suddenly different from old conservatives? They still follow the same mindset and ideology, an ideology that's been proven to not work time and time again. It's like somebody arguing that a communism doesn't work by pointing to the USSR, and then you complaining that they're "distorting" things because they used an "old" example.
yeah the difference is communism has almost always universally ended like the USSR massive oppression and civil rights violations etc etc

conservatives have evolved steadily over the years
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Specific policies have changed (modern conservatives would actually be extremely liberal by old times; proof that reality has a liberal bias, as over time the world view shifts to the left) but their ideological stance and mindset has not. Logic and morals in terms of strict right and wrong don't magically change over a few centuries, merely our perception of them.
really their mindset hasn't? so they still consider black people property?

Feel free to try.
1, Marxism , communism , socialism

2, eugenics the civil war era mindset of 'slavery is wrong but they still aren't human nor equal to us"

3, the more Liberal factions of religion and their oh so lovely wars and what have you. The sexual awakening in ancient Greece and all the pederasty that followed and Japans enlightenment period what created Bushido and their very liberal sexuality when it came to little boys..
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Notice a common trend in history?
I noticed your enormously dishonest rendition of it yes
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:X's in history include Galileo's ideas, Evolution, Minorities, Child Labor protection laws, abolition of slavery, Civil Rights and Gay rights.
Galileo would not be a liberal by any modern stretch of the imagination the same people who were in favor of abolishing slavery still believed that African Americans were inferior to the white man and in Europe the most liberal minded souls conceived of the notion "Africans need to be saved from their own culture and their lands from it's savagery" your Liberals branched off The Seventh Day Adventist Church to form one of the most despicable Christian sects in history. your historical Liberals believed in some fantastically fucked up shit just like every one else did

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:10 pm

Praeothmin wrote:So the Conservatives, like, say, the US Republican party, always voted for slavery, right?
They hate progress, and love status quo?
Wow, you should have told that to Abraham Lincoln...
Was he not a Republican, the party that best represents conservatism in the US?
Are you sure you have all your facts right?
Are you sure YOU READ THE FUCKING OP? Clearly you don't understand that the two parties switched ideologies long ago.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:28 am

oh look he came back after running away for months

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Praeothmin
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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:43 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:So the Conservatives, like, say, the US Republican party, always voted for slavery, right?
They hate progress, and love status quo?
Wow, you should have told that to Abraham Lincoln...
Was he not a Republican, the party that best represents conservatism in the US?
Are you sure you have all your facts right?
Are you sure YOU READ THE FUCKING OP? Clearly you don't understand that the two parties switched ideologies long ago.
You're right, I'm really lost...
So, the Conservatives (Republicans) are no longer Conservative?
They are now more Liberal than the Liberals (Democrats), and are now always voting for change, while the Liberals are always voting for status quo?
Man, this doesn't fit with anything I've read...

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Khas » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:07 pm

What SWST means is that when they were founded, the Democrats were the conservatives, and the Republicans were the liberals. Sometime in the early 20th century, the two parties switched ideologies, to the ones they have today.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:17 pm

Khas wrote:What SWST means is that when they were founded, the Democrats were the conservatives, and the Republicans were the liberals. Sometime in the early 20th century, the two parties switched ideologies, to the ones they have today.
And that really goes against what I've read...
What I've read says that the Republicans were conservative from the get-go, and the Democrats liberal from the get-go...

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Khas » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:57 am

Well, looking back, it appears I was mistaken.

Republicans were conservative from the get-go. Democrats used to be ultra-conservative.

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:40 am

Khas wrote:Well, looking back, it appears I was mistaken.

Republicans were conservative from the get-go. Democrats used to be ultra-conservative.
that would be a yes

never mind that SWST has plainly shown his monstrous ignorance of history and his true intentions regarding this thread is to start a cluster fuck

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:36 pm

Indeed, I re-read about the Democrats, and at first the party was created with the Republicans, and thus were the Democratic-Republican party.
But they were ultra-conservative for less than 50 years, than became closer in view to the Democrats we know today because of the civil war, more than 140 years ago...
So they have been liberals far longer than conservatives, it seems...

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:16 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
You're right, I'm really lost...
So, the Conservatives (Republicans) are no longer Conservative?
No, the Liberals (Republicans) are not longer Liberals. Where exactly did you read your history from? Fox News?
They are now more Liberal than the Liberals (Democrats), and are now always voting for change, while the Liberals are always voting for status quo?
So you think that the old Southern Democrats, who were voting for state rights and a smaller federal government, against the abolition of slavery (which would be a major change) and against social security (which modern Republicans are skeptical of) were liberals?

Again, where did you read your history?
Man, this doesn't fit with anything I've read...
Well maybe you need to learn some Google-fu at the least to supplement Fox News.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=bve ... 21&bih=513

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:21 pm

Or maybe you should read the latest posts before you reply... :)

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:23 am

Praeothmin wrote:Or maybe you should read the latest posts before you reply... :)
you are asking far too much I'm afraid

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Re: Liberals vs Conservatives: History

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:29 am

Praeothmin wrote:Indeed, I re-read about the Democrats, and at first the party was created with the Republicans, and thus were the Democratic-Republican party.
But they were ultra-conservative for less than 50 years, than became closer in view to the Democrats we know today because of the civil war, more than 140 years ago...
So they have been liberals far longer than conservatives, it seems...
actually a the Dems stayed pretty ultra connie up until forty or fifty years ago

mind you morality evolves with society and politics change hence the fallacious nature of the comparison SWST was trying to make..most of those liberals for example were abolitionist because they believed it was gods will that African Americans be free..but hardly considered them human..a few decades later..they willingly embraced Eugenics and that oh so lovely twisted Darwinism that allot human zoos where all about..while the connies opposed that stuff

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