EU, US, China, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

For any and all other discussion, i.e., not relating to Star Wars or Star Trek or standards of evidence. A reminder: Don't spam, don't flame, and stay reasonable.
Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:nonsense any mega corp that's so stupid as to reduce it's clients to peasantry have historically failed so hard it's not even funny and never by federal means..always due to it's share holders
Which is exactly why capitalism has cycle... capitalism makes crap... crap increases to unbearable level... revolution happens... revolution destroys itself due to human stupidity... capitalism is reestablished... repeat cylce...
no the huge middle class and the sheer amount of money it circulated into the economy and all the new businesses and success stories that came about after the war as a direct result of it...are to be thanked
Nope. Middle class is only thing you got right, and it gets destroyed due to Friedman's policies. But if you research it, you will realize that post-crisis and post-WW2 USA was socialistic democracy. Now it is corporatistic corporatiocracy, as is EU.
they'd be fighting for their country only this time directly hired by their people through their investing in the company he works for. in an era where the Internet allows for even people making minimum wage to buy and participate in the stock market..the ability to do what ever you want as a CEO is slowly dying..the working man who invests in your company has far more to loose and will not put up with your shirt
Yay. Except country is being turned into cash dispenser for idiotic corporations.
so we're pretending the slaughter and rape of former Roman assets never happened? the invasion of the Iberian peninsula? So we're pretending the radical brutality that's been going on in India and parts of Asia since the era of the Mongol empire never happened?

Radical Islam has been around for as well over a thousand years
Since Crusades, actually. But if you knew history, you would know that Islam was quite tolerant at times... often even more than Christianity. But neither Crusades nor Jihad started for religious reasons. Main reason were Middle-eastern trade routes.
again in the 21 first century it's not fat bastards in top hats smoking Cuban Cigars and drinking brandy...it's every one you literally have to answer to..every one no matter their class what invests in your company..
What the hell it has to do with anything?
and congratulations with bolded you have resorted to using SWST's debate style and in doing so completely and utterly torpedoed your credibility with me let's see if we can't repair it Picard you're better then that.
Official history is written by corporations, and corporation-backed people. You have to look under the surface... but no, it's easier to close eyes and shut down...
I immigrated from a nation that was ruined by the state saved by radical privatization then completely destroyed by the state again!
Which nation? And I have cousin in Germany,, where many Poles come to work. Suffice to say, they aren't happy about EU at all.
and congratulations with bolded you have resorted to using SWST's debate style and in doing so completely and utterly torpedoed your credibility with me let's see if we can't repair it Picard you're better then that.

as for my experience? I immigrated from a nation that was ruined by the state saved by radical privatization then completely destroyed by the state again! I'm an immigrant who became a citizen of a nation that is the most powerful nation in history and probably one of the most influential civilizations..I'm proud to say I'm self made and no corporate big guy ever kept my down...the government did though lord knows it tried..the socialist and left leaning people in power..certainly monkey wrenched me and my boss for the first year or so of our venture it was hell on earth but all the same. Now I'm not living in a mansion flying private jets and drinking thousand dollar bottles of wine. But I am lucky enough to have my house..and be able to maintain my mom who's not been able to work since I was six..take my family on vacations visit the home land every now and then and feed myself really that's all I need I'd like more but I'm okay with just this especially because I never took a government check never got any subsidies never took some one else's money that I didn't repay and using the capitalist system..earned my place

my mother who happens to be an Irish American her father and Grandfather immigrated from a nation that was shit on and mercilessly exploited by the British state for generations...he was a ww2 vet came back..worked his ass off and made a not so shabby life to himself..no company ever exploited him or kept him down at all.

my ol'man and brother both work for a private university and do okay for themselves no ones oppressing them

So yeah I read what you post and come to two conclusions A: I'm either insanely lucky and hey maybe that's true I could be for all I know or B: based on my own life experiences and the life experiences of millions of people like me all over the world it isn't nearly as clear cut as you are making it out to be by any stretch of the imagination.
And you do realize that due to mechanics of capitalism, only one in hundred can achieve that, no matter how competent all 100 are? Beacouse all that money comes from somewhere... from someone else.
I'm not sure how the buying and selling of intestines came into your analogy I'll pass it up to you getting heated and rappid fire posting.
It was analogy. And BTW, in corporatist system, firefighters (that is, state) would drive rusty truck that would break down along the way and would never arrive - and wouldn't be able to help even if it does arrive.
them destroying it can't happen soon enough as for the casualties? both sides will pay for that
Country has to have military to defend against external threats - and no, even if all countries loose military, some external threats will still exist.

EDIT:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KIR307A.html

http://www.gregpalast.com/are-us-corpor ... -iraq-war/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oc ... aq.comment

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts207.html

http://www.serendipity.li/iraqwar.htm

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:35 am

Picard wrote: Which is exactly why capitalism has cycle... capitalism makes crap... crap increases to unbearable level... revolution happens... revolution destroys itself due to human stupidity... capitalism is reestablished... repeat cylce...]
if a company pushes crap on you...you have the right to buy from another company when a state does it you have the right to shut your mouth and take it or be arrested for treason
Picard wrote:
Nope. Middle class is only thing you got right, and it gets destroyed due to Friedman's policies. But if you research it, you will realize that post-crisis and post-WW2 USA was socialistic democracy. Now it is corporatistic corporatiocracy, as is EU.
yeah hence why so many of those guys ended up doing rather well for themselves? if it wasn't for the middle class pariticipating in the system nothing would of turned out the way it did for the US it's specifically because of capitalism
Picard wrote:Yay. Except country is being turned into cash dispenser for idiotic corporations.
yup and its still better then a government I can;t ever forcefully eject
Picard wrote:
Since Crusades, actually. But if you knew history, you would know that Islam was quite tolerant at times... often even more than Christianity. But neither Crusades nor Jihad started for religious reasons. Main reason were Middle-eastern trade routes.
since before the Crusades I know my history and the effort Islam put into preserving knowledge when the rest of the world was in a dark age it does not detract from how utterly incorrect your statement is

religious zealotry comes from a desire to force a person to adhere to your faith a people..by any means necessary the control is the goal the wealth and all that is an added bonus
Picard wrote: What the hell it has to do with anything?
everything
Picard wrote: Official history is written by corporations, and corporation-backed people. You have to look under the surface... but no, it's easier to close eyes and shut down...
these kind of fallacies rantings wont get you anywhere with me
Picard wrote: Which nation? And I have cousin in Germany,, where many Poles come to work. Suffice to say, they aren't happy about EU at all.
i don't blame them it's morally vile that other nations in the EU are basically sitting back and demanding the prosperous ones bail them out..that they are entitled to other peoples money..is pretty twisted
Picard wrote: And you do realize that due to mechanics of capitalism, only one in hundred can achieve that, no matter how competent all 100 are? Beacouse all that money comes from somewhere... from someone else.
that many competent people? really? maybe...i know allot more people who took the easy way basically got paid by the government to bitch about the evils of society..made a fortune with out ever actually having to work for it..off other peoples money..who sit around lecturing on the values of socialism

I suppose that life styles appealing to some..not to me and certainly not to the other guys we competed against..to get to some semblance of stability.
Picard wrote:
It was analogy. And BTW, in corporatist system, firefighters (that is, state) would drive rusty truck that would break down along the way and would never arrive - and wouldn't be able to help even if it does arrive.
why in the name of heaven would that happen? you can't make money off dead people...

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:39 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:if a company pushes crap on you...you have the right to buy from another company when a state does it you have the right to shut your mouth and take it or be arrested for treason
If company pushes crap on you... you can go to another company. Except another company will push same or worse crap.
When state pushes crap on you, you can rebel, or go to court, be it home or international one, or leave to another state.
When companies take over state, you can't do ANYTHING except start a revolution.
yeah hence why so many of those guys ended up doing rather well for themselves? if it wasn't for the middle class pariticipating in the system nothing would of turned out the way it did for the US it's specifically because of capitalism
Old school socialistic capitalism, which died after 1995.
yup and its still better then a government I can;t ever forcefully eject
Especially not if companies control government. If government is democratic, controlled by people, then there is no need for forceful ejection. If it is controlled by corporations, forceful ejection is often only possible solution.
since before the Crusades I know my history and the effort Islam put into preserving knowledge when the rest of the world was in a dark age it does not detract from how utterly incorrect your statement is

religious zealotry comes from a desire to force a person to adhere to your faith a people..by any means necessary the control is the goal the wealth and all that is an added bonus
Correction.

In Muslim contries, you could keep your religion, you would only have to pay tax. So it was either paying the tax or converting to Islam. But forceful convertions were not common, and concept of jihad, holy war, matured only after First Crusade.
these kind of fallacies rantings wont get you anywhere with me
Fallacies rantings my a**.

You really believe that US invaded Iraq to bring democracy to its people? Or that Soviet Union wanted to free anyone? Or that Hitler was simply very lucky madman? Or that War on Terror is actual reason, not excuse?

Hell...
i don't blame them it's morally vile that other nations in the EU are basically sitting back and demanding the prosperous ones bail them out..that they are entitled to other peoples money..is pretty twisted
Maybe beacouse they can't help themselves? Beacouse first idiotic communism and then free imperialism destroyed their countries so hard that they CAN'T help themselves anymore? And by the way, these rich countries (at least their companies) got lots of profit by buying poorer countries' resources, firms, etc., which resulted in their inability to help themselves.
that many competent people? really? maybe...i know allot more people who took the easy way basically got paid by the government to bitch about the evils of society..made a fortune with out ever actually having to work for it..off other peoples money..who sit around lecturing on the values of socialism

I suppose that life styles appealing to some..not to me and certainly not to the other guys we competed against..to get to some semblance of stability.
Oh yes, stealing everything and anything from people, countries and continents is really good, reasonable and moral way of getting rich... competence is OK, but if it is not paired with morality, you've got trouble.
why in the name of heaven would that happen? you can't make money off dead people...
No, but corporations push people as far as they can.

And about socielism and imperialism...

Socialism is when 90% of profit goes to workers. Imperialism is when 90% of profit goes to capitalist. What do you think, where will workers work better?

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:22 pm

Picard wrote:[

If company pushes crap on you... you can go to another company. Except another company will push same or worse crap.
no because you have a genuine complaint you move on a company in the long run benefits nothing from such conduct and has to answer to any one who holds an interest
Picard wrote:[When state pushes crap on you, you can rebel,
easier said then done
Picard wrote:[or go to court, be it home or international one, or leave to another state.
none of that accomplishes anything
Picard wrote:[
When companies take over state, you can't do ANYTHING except start a revolution.
yes you can you can invest in another company and force it..into power
Picard wrote:[Old school socialistic capitalism, which died after 1995.
oh lord
Picard wrote:[
Especially not if companies control government. If government is democratic, controlled by people, then there is no need for forceful ejection. If it is controlled by corporations, forceful ejection is often only possible solution.
really controlled by the people? Eric holder just committed treason and multiple counts of negligent homicide the left the state favoring people in power? yup keeping him from..any harm
Picard wrote:[Correction.

In Muslim contries, you could keep your religion, you would only have to pay tax. So it was either paying the tax or converting to Islam. But forceful convertions were not common, and concept of jihad, holy war, matured only after First Crusade.
and if you couldn't pay and wouldn't convert slavery..my how enlightened they were..clearly it's the wests fault their so fucked up
Picard wrote:[
Fallacies rantings my a**.
completely and utterly guilty and what you did next is straight out of SWST and his SDN churches "make a bunch of obviously stupid claims and associate them with your opponent to dishonestly torpedo their credibility or at least try too"
Picard wrote:[

You really believe that US invaded Iraq to bring democracy to its people? Or that Soviet Union wanted to free anyone? Or that Hitler was simply very lucky madman? Or that War on Terror is actual reason, not excuse?

Hell...
no I don't believe in any of those things if your done talking out of your ass and want to actually muster an argument that does not involve nonsense..feel free

Picard wrote:[
Maybe beacouse they can't help themselves? Beacouse first idiotic communism and then free imperialism destroyed their countries so hard that they CAN'T help themselves anymore? And by the way, these rich countries (at least their companies) got lots of profit by buying poorer countries' resources, firms, etc., which resulted in their inability to help themselves.
and the English worker who busts his balls to earn his money..is morally obligated to fork over even more in taxes to help out other countries? fuck that shit..what your describing..is nothing but parasitism

it's not the working class of the UK or Germany or Frances problem they do not deserve to be forced to pay..out the wazoo for other nations own issues

Picard wrote:[
Oh yes, stealing everything and anything from people, countries and continents is really good, reasonable and moral way of getting rich... competence is OK, but if it is not paired with morality, you've got trouble.
it's not stealing when the other party is complicit in it and making a fortune off it..thats called commerce
Picard wrote:[No, but corporations push people as far as they can.

And about socielism and imperialism...
and then you can oust the company
Socialism is when 90% of profit goes to workers.
and you know what? the worker does not deserve that at all he deserves about as much as he puts in work wise...and the basic protections of his health hide and family and the rest he can go and earn

and allot of them do and rise through the ranks and do just fine maybe not loaded but enough to feed families put their kids though college etc
Picard wrote:[Imperialism is when 90% of profit goes to capitalist. What do you think, where will workers work better?
no genius Imperialism is when everything belongs to the empire to the state who happens to either be a monarch or an institution 0f nobles

and as for who works better were? based on my experience the ones who don't get subsidized and actually earn what belongs to them are far more happy confident and well read and eager to participate in the system because they know they have nothing to fall back on and they sink or swim based off their own actions

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:28 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote: no because you have a genuine complaint you move on a company in the long run benefits nothing from such conduct and has to answer to any one who holds an interest
Answer to who...? Court? State that is already destroyed by companies and no longer fullfills any function of state (defence, health care, law enforcement) despite having all decorations of state – and that all due to corporations taking all these duties on themselves, and making money on poorly fullfilled contracts?
easier said then done
But it was done. Check out all revolutions in history.
none of that accomplishes anything
Sometimes it does. Last option accomplishes something if you have normal state to leave to.
yes you can you can invest in another company and force it..into power
Is blue devil better than a green one?
oh lord
Its true. After communism was destroyed, capitalists got free reign. Only socialistic states remaining are in Scandinavia. Free health care...minimal wages set by law... state education... whole army of laws made to control capitalism... that was all implemented to counter communism. After 1995, Friedman's system ( removal of any and all rules and regulations that prevent accumulation of capital; state must sell everything that corporations can use to make profit; subventioning of public expenses must be drastically reduced; rich and poor must pay taxes on equall rate; corporations must be free to sell anything, anywhere; governments must not protect local industry or property; all prices must be set by market; rules setting minimum wages must be removed; health care, post, educational services, national parks, etc. must all be privatized) was implemented.
really controlled by the people?
If it really is controlled by people, then it's democracy. But around 95 to 100 % of current „democracies“ are controlled by corporations.
and if you couldn't pay and wouldn't convert slavery..my how enlightened they were..clearly it's the wests fault their so fucked up
And clearly West was soo better... what with murdering, burning and expelling people...
completely and utterly guilty and what you did next is straight out of SWST and his SDN churches "make a bunch of obviously stupid claims and associate them with your opponent to dishonestly torpedo their credibility or at least try too"
Quotes, please.
and the English worker who busts his balls to earn his money..is morally obligated to fork over even more in taxes to help out other countries? fuck that shit..what your describing..is nothing but parasitism

it's not the working class of the UK or Germany or Frances problem they do not deserve to be forced to pay..out the wazoo for other nations own issues
Worker... no. But capitalists in these countries were morally obliged NOT to devastate already devastated countries even more... yet they did it.
it's not stealing when the other party is complicit in it and making a fortune off it..thats called commerce
When other party is complicit in it, yes. But as far as I can remember, that „other party“ should be people, not small group of politicians, and something should be provided in return for it to be called commerce. Instead, Western corporations bought everything for almost bagatel prices, 10 or more times lower than true value of firms etc. they bought.
and then you can oust the company
How? Companies control government; how you oust them? And people are obviously too lazy to start revolution.
and you know what? the worker does not deserve that at all he deserves about as much as he puts in work wise...and the basic protections of his health hide and family and the rest he can go and earn

and allot of them do and rise through the ranks and do just fine maybe not loaded but enough to feed families put their kids though college etc
„About as much as he puts in work wise“ would be 100% of profits, beacouse nothing would be made without workers.
no genius Imperialism is when everything belongs to the empire to the state who happens to either be a monarch or an institution 0f nobles
Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism
"the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination."
usually between states“ and „based on domination and subordination“. But it can be within state itself.
and as for who works better were? based on my experience the ones who don't get subsidized and actually earn what belongs to them are far more happy confident and well read and eager to participate in the system because they know they have nothing to fall back on and they sink or swim based off their own actions
Correct; but that means everyone must be given EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to make something from it – you won't achieve it via making private schools, private hospitals, and destroying/privatizing public sector... And people must be given more than 10% of what they actually deserve, right? That is why I'd say Scandinavian system is actually best.

And no, there are always people who do not actually earn what belongs to them... politicians and capitalists... but Friedman's system puts FAR MORE money in their hands than any other system.

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:50 am

Picard wrote:
Answer to who...? Court? State that is already destroyed by companies and no longer fullfills any function of state (defence, health care, law enforcement) despite having all decorations of state – and that all due to corporations taking all these duties on themselves, and making money on poorly fullfilled contracts?]
the only thing the state should be doing is..is protecting your ass from external threats and arbitrating your drama tis about it

Picard wrote: But it was done. Check out all revolutions in history.
at great personal cost

Picard wrote:
Sometimes it does. Last option accomplishes something if you have normal state to leave to.
yeah the problem is your definition of hell on earth is just plain peachy keen for allot of folks
Picard wrote:
Is blue devil better than a green one?
if the blue devils offering better yes

Picard wrote: Its true. After communism was destroyed, capitalists got free reign. Only socialistic states remaining are in Scandinavia. Free health care...minimal wages set by law... state education... whole army of laws made to control capitalism... that was all implemented to counter communism. After 1995, Friedman's system ( removal of any and all rules and regulations that prevent accumulation of capital; state must sell everything that corporations can use to make profit; subventioning of public expenses must be drastically reduced; rich and poor must pay taxes on equall rate; corporations must be free to sell anything, anywhere; governments must not protect local industry or property; all prices must be set by market; rules setting minimum wages must be removed; health care, post, educational services, national parks, etc. must all be privatized) was implemented.
fuck free healthcare I shouldn't have to pay for other people and they should never be forced to pay for me...Set minimum wages? set by the corrupt politicians in with the syndicates?

state education? I went through that the most useless and corrupt piece of trash around at least in the city I went through it I had wonderful teachers who really wanted to help but were crapped on by the county and state laws
Picard wrote: If it really is controlled by people, then it's democracy. But around 95 to 100 % of current „democracies“ are controlled by corporations.
and guess who controls corporations? at least decent pieces of those
Picard wrote: And clearly West was soo better... what with murdering, burning and expelling people...
no the west was just as terrible..but let's not pretend the big evil west was the only guilty on here
Picard wrote: Quotes, please.
you're kidding right? now I'm convinced your trolling

this
You really believe that US invaded Iraq to bring democracy to its people? Or that Soviet Union wanted to free anyone? Or that Hitler was simply very lucky madman? Or that War on Terror is actual reason, not excuse?

Hell...
is called falsely using generalities to attack a persons credibility putting words in his mouth he never said..this is dishonesty and a punishable offense here
Picard wrote:Worker... no. But capitalists in these countries were morally obliged NOT to devastate already devastated countries even more... yet they did it.
maybe you' aren't grasping this these workers are just as capitalist as their bosses if not more so because their on the bottom climbing to the top

they do not nor do their British bosses deserve to fork over cash they earned that belongs to them..to another nation


Picard wrote:When other party is complicit in it, yes. But as far as I can remember, that „other party“ should be people, not small group of politicians, and something should be provided in return for it to be called commerce. Instead, Western corporations bought everything for almost bagatel prices, 10 or more times lower than true value of firms etc. they bought.
and what's wrong with this? investing into a post soviet eastern Europe was a terrible risk...you cannot expect some one to put their neck on the line for your people willingly..and do so with out expecting them to do everything in their power to make sure their companies and investors and employee's are safe guarded

Picard wrote: How? Companies control government; how you oust them? And people are obviously too lazy to start revolution.
by selling your stocks and buying into another one en masse in such a manner that is utterly destroys the other one or severely reduces it's standing
Picard wrote: „About as much as he puts in work wise“ would be 100% of profits, beacouse nothing would be made without workers.
bosses are workers too every one is a "worker' those retarded Marxist definitions aside the guy on the top has much value as the guy on the bottom..and visa versa..so long as they prove it and earn it

Picard wrote:Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism
"the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination."
usually between states“ and „based on domination and subordination“. But it can be within state itself.
yeah don't see any 'teh evil megacurpz lulz!!" obvious biased political usage of the definition is obvious

Picard wrote: Correct; but that means everyone must be given EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to make something from it – you won't achieve it via making private schools, private hospitals, and destroying/privatizing public sector... And people must be given more than 10% of what they actually deserve, right? That is why I'd say Scandinavian system is actually best.
you want the good stuff in life? go earn it work for it sweat for it..you want millions/ go fucking earn it

the state should be kept out of education and medicine at all costs...
Picard wrote:And no, there are always people who do not actually earn what belongs to them... politicians and capitalists... but Friedman's system puts FAR MORE money in their hands than any other system.
Capitalist earn their keep you fanatic lefty you...and for politicians agents of the state? oh absolutely agree with you there..fuck 'em

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:34 pm

“AdmiralBreetai“ wrote: the only thing the state should be doing is..is protecting your ass from external threats and arbitrating your drama tis about it
Then why people organized into STATES and not CORPORATIONS in past? Beacouse corporations now think that they can do even things you sad state should do (Blackwater, for example).
at great personal cost
Progress always comes at cost.
if the blue devils offering better yes
Yeah... so what you prefer? Being decapitated by saber or by sword?
fuck free healthcare I shouldn't have to pay for other people and they should never be forced to pay for me...Set minimum wages? set by the corrupt politicians in with the syndicates?
1) If capitalism got its own, people would not be able to afford payed healthcare.

2) Better than set by politicians controlled by companies.
state education? I went through that the most useless and corrupt piece of trash around at least in the city I went through it I had wonderful teachers who really wanted to help but were crapped on by the county and state laws
As far as I know, US state is already royally f***** up by corporations, so low quality of state education there doesn't surprise me. But there are still countries, including mine, where state education is satisfactory.
and guess who controls corporations? at least decent pieces of those
Capitalists. People have no say in that.
no the west was just as terrible..but let's not pretend the big evil west was the only guilty on here
It wasn't only guilty back then. But modern radicals were made by West, first to counter Communism (Talibans).
is called falsely using generalities to attack a persons credibility putting words in his mouth he never said..this is dishonesty and a punishable offense here
Read again. I thought that private school was able to teach you English well enough to understand meaning of something? These were fucking questions, I never stated that you said it..
maybe you' aren't grasping this these workers are just as capitalist as their bosses if not more so because their on the bottom climbing to the top
WRONG. Private schools you are advocating... are PAID. Meaning that one must have MONEY in order to give child proper education. Without education, you can't succeed in life. Meaning that workers and their children in most cases will never be able to climb on top. And by the way, they can't all be on top, or even 50% of them, beacouse who will give money for capitalists' villas, luxury cars, bank accounts, and his entire slaving machinery?
and what's wrong with this? investing into a post soviet eastern Europe was a terrible risk...you cannot expect some one to put their neck on the line for your people willingly..and do so with out expecting them to do everything in their power to make sure their companies and investors and employee's are safe guarded
Instead Chicago University sent advisors which devastated Eastern economies with „shock doctrine“ (wild privatization, skyrocketing prices, etc.), despite the fact they were asked to save, not destroy, them. I know that planned economy isn't good, but law of jungle isn't any better.
by selling your stocks and buying into another one en masse in such a manner that is utterly destroys the other one or severely reduces it's standing
And how to know which company is good and which bad when there is no oversight? And how to guarantee people will have money to do that in large enough amount to negate those who aren't interested in things like „morale“?
bosses are workers too
Capitalists are not bosses. 99% of them don't do ANYTHING except waiting for profit. Insetad, they hire other people to do it instead of them. I know that CEO is worker, but he isn't capitalist either.
yeah don't see any 'teh evil megacurpz lulz!!" obvious biased political usage of the definition is obvious
„Obviously biased“? In what world do you live? It is „usually“ between states beacouse it isn't ALWAYS between states, as you want it to mean. And „based on domination and subordination“ is exactly what capitalism is based on.
you want the good stuff in life? go earn it work for it sweat for it..you want millions/ go fucking earn it
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Workers cannot „earn“ it no matter how much they work. Capitalists push them to work as much as possible for as low pay as possible. How will anyone earn millions like that if capitalist takes 90% of profit? Many can't earn for honest living, let alone bonus over it, despite the fact that they work 12 to 18 hours a day, with no insurance and no basic rights.
the state should be kept out of education and medicine at all costs...
So that people who are not allowed to earn enough money will die on streets and their children will not be allowed to escape parents' misery?
Capitalist earn their keep you fanatic lefty you...and for politicians agents of the state? oh absolutely agree with you there..fuck 'em
Earn? As far as I know, YOU have to WORK for YOUR pay, not let someone else do it for you. And politicians are agents of capitalists, they don't give a f*** about state.

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Picard wrote:[
Then why people organized into STATES and not CORPORATIONS in past? Beacouse corporations now think that they can do even things you sad state should do (Blackwater, for example).
if a private company can do something better then a state it should so far private militaries have universally sucked

Picard wrote: Progress always comes at cost.
have you ever buried family members? family friends? people you grew up with?

I try not to say things like that because when revolution happens it's always so close to home
Picard wrote:Yeah... so what you prefer? Being decapitated by saber or by sword?
cute analogy but it's also bullshit

Picard wrote:1) If capitalism got its own, people would not be able to afford payed healthcare.
that makes no sense..then medical research and the health industry dies
Picard wrote:2) Better than set by politicians controlled by companies.
this is fallacious
Picard wrote: As far as I know, US state is already royally f***** up by corporations, so low quality of state education there doesn't surprise me. But there are still countries, including mine, where state education is satisfactory.
the US is royally fucked up by the left..and corruption on the right

the state has too much power

to add to this: I have no problem with Government supervision and arbitration as long as it's reduced..and the government itself is held completely at the mercy of every one..else as corporations are slowly becoming
Picard wrote: Capitalists. People have no say in that.
no genius investors..and they're from all social classes I've seen security guards people who make about eight dollars an hour..the 'worker" take out lap tops and log onto E trade..or start buying and selling currency and argue trade strategies and shit..with the same people in the office buildings who make a hundred times more

your opinions about capitalism are entirely outdated when trying to apply them to places like the US and Japan at least based on things like that that I've seen any body with internet access and even a small amount of disposable income can participate

Picard wrote: It wasn't only guilty back then. But modern radicals were made by West, first to counter Communism (Talibans).
oh lord Radicals never die its always there
Picard wrote: Read again. I thought that private school was able to teach you English well enough to understand meaning of something? These were fucking questions, I never stated that you said it..
I only went to Catholic run private school for a year back when I was four..and it was more like day care or something..I'm a product of public education slick hence why I have an opinion on it (I don't actually like commenting on stuff i don't have practical experience in) as for your little tirade

even tossing out those questions in the patronizing manner you did is an attempt to discredit it's fallacious and it's SWST and SDN style debating

Picard wrote: WRONG. Private schools you are advocating... are PAID. Meaning that one must have MONEY in order to give child proper education. Without education, you can't succeed in life. Meaning that workers and their children in most cases will never be able to climb on top. And by the way, they can't all be on top, or even 50% of them, beacouse who will give money for capitalists' villas, luxury cars, bank accounts, and his entire slaving machinery?
and not all private schools are exorbitantly expensive genius also your opinions on capitalist are so insanely strawman that I'm seriously considering just..trolling you in this debate..there is literally no point in debating seriously with some one this biased


Picard wrote:Instead Chicago University sent advisors which devastated Eastern economies with „shock doctrine“ (wild privatization, skyrocketing prices, etc.), despite the fact they were asked to save, not destroy, them. I know that planned economy isn't good, but law of jungle isn't any better.
oh yeah no one of the most corrupt universities from one of the most corrupt cities in the world...yeah i feel bad for you guys

funny though they did just fine for Chile
Picard wrote: And how to know which company is good and which bad when there is no oversight? And how to guarantee people will have money to do that in large enough amount to negate those who aren't interested in things like „morale“?
i'm sorry you seriously need to the government to tell you..what Company is good or bad? are you serious? with the net? really? and how easy it is to get the low down on things? really?

Picard wrote:
Capitalists are not bosses. 99% of them don't do ANYTHING except waiting for profit. Insetad, they hire other people to do it instead of them. I know that CEO is worker, but he isn't capitalist either.
this is complete garbage and you're attempting to use Capitalist like a slur to denote something evil..cease doing this because it only makes you look demented
Picard wrote:
„Obviously biased“? In what world do you live? It is „usually“ between states beacouse it isn't ALWAYS between states, as you want it to mean. And „based on domination and subordination“ is exactly what capitalism is based on.
that's cool by you're logic the Medallin Cartel in the nineteen eighties and early nineties and the current gangs in Mexico..are filthy imperialist dogs!!

goodness me the flexibility by that logic a socialized system is tyrannical and imperial because it forces you to pay more money in taxes to fund subsidies

Picard wrote: THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Workers cannot „earn“ it no matter how much they work. Capitalists push them to work as much as possible for as low pay as possible. How will anyone earn millions like that if capitalist takes 90% of profit? Many can't earn for honest living, let alone bonus over it, despite the fact that they work 12 to 18 hours a day, with no insurance and no basic rights.
yes they can..history is full of success stories..it does nothing to a capitalist system to keep every one down the more people make it the more companies exist the more companies exist the more people work and the more people work the more money they spend...the more competition in the market..the more drive there is to excel and advance
Picard wrote: So that people who are not allowed to earn enough money will die on streets and their children will not be allowed to escape parents' misery?
this is..so much fun iz like I'm talking to a living caricature

Picard wrote: Earn? As far as I know, YOU have to WORK for YOUR pay, not let someone else do it for you. And politicians are agents of capitalists, they don't give a f*** about state.
when you earn your way to the top..you deserve it..

LOL at politicians being agents of capitalists

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:23 am

Admiral Breetai wrote: if a private company can do something better then a state it should so far private militaries have universally sucked
Problem is that private companies, be it PMC's or others, often have no loyalty to anyone except their owner and whoever has deeper pocket to pay them. Ford produced trucks for Hitler, you know?
have you ever buried family members? family friends? people you grew up with?

I try not to say things like that because when revolution happens it's always so close to home
Yes and no. Noone mine died at war (luckily) althought one of them has gone to war and is still full of gellers. Besides, revolution is last option. First option is changing the government – only problem is if all of politicians are on capitalists' pay, beacouse elections won't achieve anything in that case.
cute analogy but it's also bullshit
Bullshit how? One capitalist is usually (say, 99.5 % of cases) same as another; and with great power often comes great greed.
that makes no sense..then medical research and the health industry dies
There will always be a rich minority. But capitalists usually push the prices up and wages down until system breaks down, and people cannot afford products, be it health care or other products – which then results in financial crisis. Or you think all these crises are happening for no reason at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis

From what I can see, both Marxist and Keynesian/Minsky's theories are mostly correct about causes of crises.
this is fallacious
Fallacious... how? What do you think, who puts politicians in power? Where money for their election campaignes comes from?
the state has too much power
How? Last I heard, it cannot even protect its citizens or help them after catastrophy (Catrina hurricane) beacouse private corporations failed to fullfill their contracts – despite getting money for it. And state could do nothing. Soon it will lose control of armed forces, police and intelligence services, as well of last remnants of public health care and public education – which is about everything it controls right now. According to you, state should not exist except as employer and kind of insurance for private corporations.
to add to this: I have no problem with Government supervision and arbitration as long as it's reduced..and the government itself is held completely at the mercy of every one..else as corporations are slowly becoming
Held at mercy of corporations? Government should keep corporations in check, and people should keep government in check, instead of corporations keeping everyone else in check.
no genius investors..and they're from all social classes I've seen security guards people who make about eight dollars an hour..the 'worker" take out lap tops and log onto E trade..or start buying and selling currency and argue trade strategies and shit..with the same people in the office buildings who make a hundred times more

your opinions about capitalism are entirely outdated when trying to apply them to places like the US and Japan at least based on things like that that I've seen any body with internet access and even a small amount of disposable income can participate
They can participate, but they can't influence it enough to make a change, even a small one. They have no impact on the system.
oh lord Radicals never die its always there
Including radical capitalists ;-).
I'm a product of public education slick hence why I have an opinion on it (I don't actually like commenting on stuff i don't have practical experience in)
As I said... public sector in US is all crapped up by corporations, incloding schools.
even tossing out those questions in the patronizing manner you did is an attempt to discredit it's fallacious and it's SWST and SDN style debating
Huh?
AdmiralBreetai wrote: Capitalist earn their keep you fanatic lefty you...
And this isn't?
and not all private schools are exorbitantly expensive genius
Beacouse they still have to compete against public schools. But what when public schools die out? You know what supermarkets do? They come, destroy competition with low prices, and after that, they rise prices as high as possible. Granted, it still isn't happening here in Croatia, despite foreign markets coming here (like Lidl) – and only reason for that is state oversight.
there is literally no point in debating seriously with some one this biased
You do understand that I could say same for you?
funny though they did just fine for Chile
Fine? Maybe for you. But not for me. And certainly not for the people.

1) They helped Pinochet destroy democracy in Chile – democracy was a 160 year-old tradition by then
2) They forced Chilean economy to accept privatization, deregulation, and to cut down public spending – basics of Friedman's doctrine
3) After Pinochet took control, 3200 people were killed or disappeared, 80 000 ended up in prisons, and 200 000 emigrated from the country due to political reasons. Then he removed price control for basic products (like bread and vegetable oil) making poor even poorer than they were.
4) Results? In 1974, inflation rate rises to 375 % - largest rate in the world and twice the inflation rate during Allende's mandate (Allende was democratically chosen president of Chile – he was removed and killed in Pinochet's coup). Unemployment rate exploded from 3.1 % before the coup to 22% in 1975. 500 state companies were privatized, resulting in loss of 177 000 workplaces in industry alone. In 1980 public spending was half of that during Allende's mandate. Economy was reduced for 15%.
5) In 1982, debts exploded (14 billion dollars), state faced hyperinflation for second time, while unemployment rate reached 30%. Situation was so unstable that Pinochet had to do exactly what Allende did – he nationalized most of companies. Chile did not suffer complete economic collapse in beginning of 1980s only beacouse Pinochet never privatized Codelco, state company which was tasked with digging copper, and was nationalized by Allende. That firm alone produced 85% of Chile's export, meaning that state still had one fairly stable source of money.
6) Until 1988, when economy stabilized and growth started, 45% of populace ended below poverty limit – while 10% of richest Chileans experienced 83% increase in revenues
7) Even in 2007, Chile remains one of least equal societies on the planet – between 123. states in which UN measures equality, Chile took 116th place – thereby positioning itself as 8th most unequal country on the list - while middle class was obliterated and melted into poor class, most of wealth was concentrated on top
i'm sorry you seriously need to the government to tell you..what Company is good or bad? are you serious? with the net? really? and how easy it is to get the low down on things? really?
Hmmm...? Throught newspapers, maybe? And beacouse bad companies should end up on court?
this is complete garbage and you're attempting to use Capitalist like a slur to denote something evil..cease doing this because it only makes you look demented
Given all things that are now pushed as „normal“, I'm quite happy to be „demented“.
current gangs in Mexico..are filthy imperialist dogs!!
Possibly.
goodness me the flexibility by that logic a socialized system is tyrannical and imperial because it forces you to pay more money in taxes to fund subsidies
It would be... if it were not for the fact that entire society profits from these subsidies... and that in such system, everyone has equal possibility for advancement... something not achieveable with private schools etc.
yes they can..history is full of success stories..it does nothing to a capitalist system to keep every one down the more people make it the more companies exist the more companies exist the more people work and the more people work the more money they spend...the more competition in the market..the more drive there is to excel and advance
Except that people have to have something to start from... something called education... which, in Friedman's system, is luxury avaliable only to the rich... and besides, capitalsists take as much profit as they can... how will you start business when you are barely earning for life... which is capitalists' ideal... along with „we accept and dismiss workers daily“.
this is..so much fun iz like I'm talking to a living caricature
This is... reality of capitalism. Which you are obviously unwilling to comprehend.
when you earn your way to the top..you deserve it..
You deserve it... as well as your parents for getting money for it. Yes, one who EARNS way to the top deserves it. BUT, for that to work, EVERYONE must have EQUALL OPPORTINITY in the BEGINNING. Something that you can forget with deregulated capitalism.
LOL at politicians being agents of capitalists
LOL's don't change reality. Where do you think money for their election campaigns comes from?

EDIT:
By the way, here are some things you should read throught:
http://www.serendipity.li/iraqwar.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts207.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KIR307A.html
http://www.gregpalast.com/are-us-corpor ... -iraq-war/
http://earthblognews.wordpress.com/2010 ... apitalism/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oc ... aq.comment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialis ... Capitalism
http://www.ditext.com/letelier/chicago.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Globa ... _VFTS.html

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:58 pm

Picard wrote:[

Problem is that private companies, be it PMC's or others, often have no loyalty to anyone except their owner and whoever has deeper pocket to pay them. Ford produced trucks for Hitler, you know?
shareholders/...shareholders and they come from every social class
Picard wrote:[

Yes and no. Noone mine died at war (luckily) althought one of them has gone to war and is still full of gellers. Besides, revolution is last option. First option is changing the government – only problem is if all of politicians are on capitalists' pay, beacouse elections won't achieve anything in that case.
if all politicians are on the capitalist pay..hoo boy lol
Picard wrote:[
Bullshit how? One capitalist is usually (say, 99.5 % of cases) same as another; and with great power often comes great greed.
no they aren't and you keep slurring it's so amusing
Picard wrote:[

There will always be a rich minority. But capitalists usually push the prices up and wages down until system breaks down, and people cannot afford products, be it health care or other products – which then results in financial crisis. Or you think all these crises are happening for no reason at all?
oh you mean the most recent one? the one that happened directly because the state decided to use tax money to back up incredibly irresponsible loans that came about because of a liberal sense of self entitlement?

yeah considering it was directly caused by the state

Picard wrote:[Fallacious... how? What do you think, who puts politicians in power? Where money for their election campaignes comes from?
who puts politicians in power? the people..of course who are influenced by the media which has in the US been an agent of the left wing for years now..thus the state

as to the money? everyone of course any one who can donate
Picard wrote:[

How? Last I heard, it cannot even protect its citizens or help them after catastrophy (Catrina hurricane) beacouse private corporations failed to fullfill their contracts – despite getting money for it. And state could do nothing. Soon it will lose control of armed forces, police and intelligence services, as well of last remnants of public health care and public education – which is about everything it controls right now. According to you, state should not exist except as employer and kind of insurance for private corporations.
Catrina? really? that had as much to do with state corruption and incompetence as anything else...as some one who survived Hurricane Andrew and witnessed first hand Miami's recovery which had just as much to do with the private sector as it did public if not more so..don't sit there and spew conspiracy theories at me..I've got practical experience with something possible worse then Catrina

we lost I believe two hundred or so thousand homes..we rebuilt


[
Picard wrote:[
Held at mercy of corporations? Government should keep corporations in check, and people should keep government in check, instead of corporations keeping everyone else in check.
why? time and time again the state proves it's nothing but a dangerous entity that can trample rights
Picard wrote:[

They can participate, but they can't influence it enough to make a change, even a small one. They have no impact on the system.
that's bullshit in fact recent history is proof of that if you look at the three major companies that got taken to task by the US and the UK recently and how dramatic their stock soared and plummeted and how their CEO's directly responded to Federal summons not because they were asked to but because the will of the investors from all social classes forced their hands


Picard wrote:[As I said... public sector in US is all crapped up by corporations, incloding schools.
and as some one who lives in the US since he immigrated here and went through its public sector I can safely say 'you can take that Micheal Moore style bullshit and stick where the sun don't shine"

the Unions and the government as to blame for this no that's in accurate but they share the lions share of the blame.

Picard wrote:[
And this isn't?
no because I'm teasing not being serious you on the other hand engaged in a deliberate attempt to discredit
Picard wrote:[
Beacouse they still have to compete against public schools. But what when public schools die out? You know what supermarkets do? They come, destroy competition with low prices, and after that, they rise prices as high as possible. Granted, it still isn't happening here in Croatia, despite foreign markets coming here (like Lidl) – and only reason for that is state oversight.
when public schools die out? They did a study recently the kids who dropped out of HS from working class and poor families who went to trade schools and academies (where you take a test and pass the subject learn only enough to qualify for a state diploma and focus on other things) private ones at that and yes they can afford these they aren't expensive at all..not only had a dramatically high graduation rate but are actually desired over..say people from regular high schools and colleges?

they actually want these kids who have been taken out of the system and are not apart of regular state curriculum, and they're having way more success at getting jobs

so what the fuck? these schools are cheap they may not completely educate you but they will teach you enough to either seek that knowledge out for yourself online or in a library and ontop of that get a damn job that pays alright which is more then most people can say.

hell I've seen companies hire them over ivy league graduates. HEll I've seen companies get sued for discrimination by the "educated" because of it.

so don't sit here and tell me that private schools are the devil for the last four years some of these places have been able to get kids who ordinarily would not be able to do more then work a gas station for the rest of their lives a chance to get a job that will in a decade land them squarely in the middle class. The same kids that in the public school system would of been tossed to the side marginalized or placed in special ed and fucked for the rest of their lives.

maybe you're not familiar with this you're from eastern Europe? yeah shits pretty bad over there but do not sit here and claim that its universally that way for every one.;
Picard wrote:[

You do understand that I could say same for you?
you could try, I'm not the one who started on the conspiracy theories and low blows
Picard wrote:[
Fine? Maybe for you. But not for me. And certainly not for the people.
really? I'm not disputing Pinochet wasn't a monster he was but there are for some reason or another an enormous amount of Chileans both in south Florida and in Chile who want his regime back

I personally wouldn't but hey you know how it when the left takes over..some times the alternative starts to look pretty good no matter what sadly.
Picard wrote:[

Hmmm...? Throught newspapers, maybe? And beacouse bad companies should end up on court?
news? hardly whether their corrupt agents of the state a political party or corporatists their all garbage

the internet or news juggling maybe
Picard wrote:[
Possibly.
LOL
Picard wrote:[
It would be... if it were not for the fact that entire society profits from these subsidies... and that in such system, everyone has equal possibility for advancement... something not achieveable with private schools etc.
the entire society does not have the right to profit from those subsidies the worker should not pay for his neighbor..he should keep the money and do with what he pleases. His boss who makes a hundred thousand euro's should not be forced to give half of it..because he earned it.

The workers neighbor should not have to pay to the worker

that's called stealing depriving the people of the choice..to either choose to share the wealth..or do with it what they please

and that's not freedom Picard that's passive oppression

Picard wrote:[
Except that people have to have something to start from... something called education... which, in Friedman's system, is luxury avaliable only to the rich... and besides, capitalsists take as much profit as they can... how will you start business when you are barely earning for life... which is capitalists' ideal... along with „we accept and dismiss workers daily“.
some of the wealthiest people in the world came from such poverty that they had to teach themselves how to read and write and educate themselves...they certainly gained nothing from state education nor did they accept or dismiss workers daily

again your spewing out to me a party line you're not debating your parroting
Picard wrote:[This is... reality of capitalism. Which you are obviously unwilling to comprehend.
i live the reality of capitalism I haven't done any of the things your monologging about the people who tower above me haven't fucked me over and the workers are content and getting better treatment then the public institutions so what the fuck? what reality? who's reality?

Picard wrote:[You deserve it... as well as your parents for getting money for it. Yes, one who EARNS way to the top deserves it. BUT, for that to work, EVERYONE must have EQUALL OPPORTINITY in the BEGINNING. Something that you can forget with deregulated capitalism.
every one does..there cannot exist a system based off competition and profit if there is neither

the rest of your post some epic bullshit I'm not wasting time on

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Picard » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:42 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:shareholders/...shareholders and they come from every social class
And they really have big impact on policy of company...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder
Wikipedia wrote:Shareholders own the stock, but not the company itself (...) Shareholders are granted special privileges depending on the class of stock.
So, they might come from every social class, but richer shareholders (epecially if shareholder is not an individual, but a company) will always have greater input than those from lower classes.

Oh, yes, and this too:
Wikipedia wrote:Therefore, contrary to popular opinion, shareholders of American public corporations are NOT the (1) owners of the corporation, (2) the claimants of the profit, or (3) investors, as in the contributors of capital.
Meaning that they are easily the least important factor. Interests and wishes of 3 aforemented groups will ALWAYS be above shareholders' interests.
no they aren't and you keep slurring it's so amusing
Oh, yes, and how they are different? Capitalists search for profit; majority of them will not do anything about anything, unless second anything has impact on their profit. Why you think many factories are going to China, despite knowing that it harms their home countries? Answers: 1) cheaper workforce 2) less regulations 3) easier to bribe officials 4) less oversight, be it state or public oversight
yeah considering it was directly caused by the state
And its inability to function properly due to too many private contractors involved and too little state oversight. Had public sector remained healthy, there would be no crisis. And these are comments on why crisis happened:
quote1 wrote:"the crisis was avoidable and was caused by: Widespread failures in financial regulation, including the Federal Reserve’s failure to stem the tide of toxic mortgages; Dramatic breakdowns in corporate governance including too many financial firms acting recklessly and taking on too much risk; An explosive mix of excessive borrowing and risk by households and Wall Street that put the financial system on a collision course with crisis; Key policy makers ill prepared for the crisis, lacking a full understanding of the financial system they oversaw; and systemic breaches in accountability and ethics at all levels[(b].“[3][4]

quote2 wrote: In a June 2009 speech, U.S. President Barack Obama argued that a "culture of irresponsibility"[45] was an important cause of the crisis. He criticized executive compensation that "rewarded recklessness rather than responsibility" and Americans who bought homes "without accepting the responsibilities." He continued that there "was far too much debt and not nearly enough capital in the system. And a growing economy bred complacency."[46]

quote3 wrote: Keynesian economist Hyman Minsky described how speculative borrowing contributed to rising debt and an eventual collapse of asset values.[61] Economist Paul McCulley described how Minsky's hypothesis translates to the current crisis, using Minsky's words: "...from time to time, capitalist economies exhibit inflations and debt deflations which seem to have the potential to spin out of control. In such processes, the economic system's reactions to a movement of the economy amplify the movement--inflation feeds upon inflation and debt-deflation feeds upon debt deflation." In other words, people are momentum investors by nature, not value investors. People naturally take actions that expand the apex and nadir of cycles. One implication for policymakers and regulators is the implementation of counter-cyclical policies, such as contingent capital requirements for banks that increase during boom periods and are reduced during busts.[62]

quote3 wrote: The former CEO of Citigroup Charles O. Prince said in November 2007: "As long as the music is playing, you've got to get up and dance." This metaphor summarized how financial institutions took advantage of easy credit conditions, by borrowing and investing large sums of money, a practice called leveraged lending.[63] Debt taken on by financial institutions increased from 63.8% of U.S. gross domestic product in 1997 to 113.8% in 2007.[64]
A 2004 SEC decision related to the net capital rule allowed USA investment banks to issue substantially more debt, which was then used to help fund the housing bubble through purchases of mortgage-backed securities.[65] From 2004-07, the top five U.S. investment banks each significantly increased their financial leverage (see diagram), which increased their vulnerability to a financial shock. These five institutions reported over $4.1 trillion in debt for fiscal year 2007, about 30% of USA nominal GDP for 2007. Lehman Brothers was liquidated, Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch were sold at fire-sale prices, and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley became commercial banks, subjecting themselves to more stringent regulation. With the exception of Lehman, these companies required or received government support.[65]
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two U.S. Government sponsored enterprises, owned or guaranteed nearly $5 trillion in mortgage obligations at the time they were placed into conservatorship by the U.S. government in September 2008.[66][67]
These seven entities were highly leveraged and had $9 trillion in debt or guarantee obligations, an enormous concentration of risk, yet were not subject to the same regulation as depository banks.

quote4 wrote:In a Peabody Award winning program, NPR correspondents argued that a "Giant Pool of Money" (represented by $70 trillion in worldwide fixed income investments) sought higher yields than those offered by U.S. Treasury bonds early in the decade, which were low due to low interest rates and trade deficits discussed above. Further, this pool of money had roughly doubled in size from 2000 to 2007, yet the supply of relatively safe, income generating investments had not grown as fast. Investment banks on Wall Street answered this demand with the mortgage-backed security (MBS) and collateralized debt obligation (CDO), which were assigned safe ratings by the credit rating agencies. In effect, Wall Street connected this pool of money to the mortgage market in the U.S., with enormous fees accruing to those throughout the mortgage supply chain, from the mortgage broker selling the loans, to small banks that funded the brokers, to the giant investment banks behind them. By approximately 2003, the supply of mortgages originated at traditional lending standards had been exhausted. However, continued strong demand for MBS and CDO began to drive down lending standards, as long as mortgages could still be sold along the supply chain. Eventually, this speculative bubble proved unsustainable.[117]


In short, it was not state oversight, but rather lack of state oversight combined with the so-called "laissez-faire" policy that caused the crisis. Roosevelt saved US economy in 1930s by increasing involvement of state in everything, as well as organizing public works and giving farm subsidies. New Deal was all about 3R: Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression. Directly contrary to Friedman's policy of deregulated market. And it worked - it basically created economy strong enough for US to achieve and hold superpower status after Great Depression of 1930s.

Besides, it was laissez-faire approach in handling the Germany after World War One that directly caused rise fo Nazi party in Germany. After World War Two, his theories were also accepted in Europe accepted, and "socialistic capitalism" came unto being in Western World - and it lasted until fall of USSR.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-tepp ... 72964.html

who puts politicians in power? the people..of course who are influenced by the media which has in the US been an agent of the left wing for years now..thus the state


Lucky you. Althought it is questionable wether true left wing exists anymore - and besides, Bush was extremely right-wing - economically and politically. And Obama presented himself as being economically left-wing (which he might be) but he can't do much - especially considering that money for election campaigns comes from corporations, and especially in old Bush' administration, many politicians were also corporatists (Donald Rumsfeld comes to mind - he introduced corporations into military, despite the fact that Constitution of US defines homeland security as business of the state, not corporations. He "declared war" on Pentagon on 10th September 2001, calling Pentagon employees who were opposed to privatization of military "enemies of the state". As for 11th September... I'd guess you already know what happened then.

as to the money? everyone of course any one who can donate


Most of it still comes from major corporations.

Catrina? really? that had as much to do with state corruption and incompetence as anything else.


State could NOT fullfill anything beacouse it gave everything to private corporations. For example, volunteers were not allowed to remove corpses from houses and streets beacouse a firm, Kenyon (part of Service Corporation International) was given contract to do it. It gave state a bill of 12 500 dollars per victim - and was later accused of failing to mark victims properly; even ONE YEAR after hurricane, people were finding partially-decomposed bodies in houses (or what remained of them).

AshBritt, firm contracted to remove garbage, did not have a SINGLE TRUCK to do it; instead, it tasked its signatory parters to do job for it.

FEMA paid 5.2 million dollars for construction of base camp for rescuers in St. Bernard Parish to certain firm - construction breached all deadlines, and was never finished. Firm (Lighthouse Disaster Relief) turned out to be a religious group.

Also, firms refused to employ local populace.

There is one more sweet detail - FEMA paid 175 dollars per square foot of awning used to cover breached roofs despite the fact that awnings were provided by the government. After all lower contractors took their part, workers setting up awning were paid 2 dollars per square foot.

One quarter of workers were illegal immigrants, who were paid far less than legally-employed citizens. Some were not even paid at all. On one site, a group of such workers, employed by Halliburton-KBR, were woken up by their employer (or his signatory partner) and told to run, beacouse immigration service was coming, and was going to send them in prison for illegal immigrants - one of many built by Kalliburton-KBR for federal government.

don't sit there and spew conspiracy theories at me..I've got practical experience with something possible worse then Catrina


Then I can only guess you were one of few lucky ones, who actually ran into one of few responsible corporations. But don't think every corporations is good and fine. Besides, have you ever heard of expression "Potemkin's village"?

why? time and time again the state proves it's nothing but a dangerous entity that can trample rights


Corporations are even more dangerous than state in that regard. You do realize that corporations actually have much greater input on decisions of government than people do? (It's called lobbying).

that's bullshit in fact recent history is proof of that if you look at the three major companies that got taken to task by the US and the UK recently and how dramatic their stock soared and plummeted and how their CEO's directly responded to Federal summons not because they were asked to but because the will of the investors from all social classes forced their hands


And what about remaining 500+ large corporations? Or 5+ million of small ones ( http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=271934 )? Here in Croatia we have a saying that "single swallow does not make a spring". It would be good if it continued that way, but I'm sceptical.

and as some one who lives in the US since he immigrated here and went through its public sector I can safely say 'you can take that Micheal Moore style bullshit and stick where the sun don't shine"


Fact that you live in US means nothing if you chose to close your eyes.

the Unions and the government as to blame for this no that's in accurate but they share the lions share of the blame.


I do agree that part of blame is definetly on them; if for nothing else, then for not acting. But I still think majority of blame goes to corporations.

when public schools die out? They did a study recently the kids who dropped out of HS from working class and poor families who went to trade schools and academies (where you take a test and pass the subject learn only enough to qualify for a state diploma and focus on other things) private ones at that and yes they can afford these they aren't expensive at all..not only had a dramatically high graduation rate but are actually desired over..say people from regular high schools and colleges?


I'd say that main reason for that is that troublemaking kids generally don't go to private school where they will be booted from at first opportunity. That is also reason why students who go to gymnasium or some other more demanding state high school make less trouble and have better chances of being accepted at university than those from lower-demanding schools.

these schools are cheap they may not completely educate you but they will teach you enough to either seek that knowledge out for yourself online or in a library


I know how to do it, and I went to state school.

so don't sit here and tell me that private schools are the devil for the last four years some of these places have been able to get kids who ordinarily would not be able to do more then work a gas station for the rest of their lives a chance to get a job that will in a decade land them squarely in the middle class. The same kids that in the public school system would of been tossed to the side marginalized or placed in special ed and fucked for the rest of their lives.

maybe you're not familiar with this you're from eastern Europe? yeah shits pretty bad over there but do not sit here and claim that its universally that way for every one.;


I did not say that private schools are devil; but at best, they should be SUPPLEMENT, not main part of educational system.

maybe you're not familiar with this you're from eastern Europe? yeah shits pretty bad over there but do not sit here and claim that its universally that way for every one.;


First, I'm from central/southern Europe, not eastern Europe. I know how Communism worked, and I know how capitalism works. So don't try to fool me.

Second, are you familiar with Internet? Newspapers? Books? These thinks can come in handy, if you know how to "read between the lines".

really? I'm not disputing Pinochet wasn't a monster he was but there are for some reason or another an enormous amount of Chileans both in south Florida and in Chile who want his regime back


They feel same about Tito here, despite the fact that he and his Communists killed more Croatians than anyone else in the WW2; and that's not counting post-war murders. Besides, go to Google and search "percent of people who want Pinochet back" (no quoting marks). To quote first result:

People are satisfied with very little. They are just so glad that Pinochet is out that they don't dare ask for justice.


Oh, yes, and why Chile did not suffer breakdown during his, US-supported, reign:

http://www.encuentroxxi.net/XXI_Ateneo_ ... s_NLR.html

news? hardly whether their corrupt agents of the state a political party or corporatists their all garbage

the internet or news juggling maybe


That's why I said that one "has to know how to read between the lines". It's only way to get anything from newspapers, either state- or corporate- -owned ones. As for Internet, thing I like about it is that you can usually find testimonies of both sides of argument (or all sides, if there is more than one) and then decide based on avaliable data and arguments. In newspapers, you can only see opinions and data that support whoever is owning that newspaper, be it state or private owner.

the worker should not pay for his neighbor..he should keep the money and do with what he pleases.


Beacouse he will never need help himself...

His boss who makes a hundred thousand euro's should not be forced to give half of it..because he earned it.


Yeah... by taking 90% of profit for himself and often leaving workers below poverty limit.

some of the wealthiest people in the world came from such poverty that they had to teach themselves how to read and write and educate themselves...they certainly gained nothing from state education nor did they accept or dismiss workers daily


They got lucky. Or they had an idea. Or both - they usually found some mecena to help them. But what about rest of people? Who do not manage to make money from their ideas or find mecena? Should they be left out to rot on expense of society despite the fact that they could do something for it with some education or push from outside to help them start - even if that "something" is digging channels or being a scribe? Beacouse phenomena you are talking about is generally so rare that you cannot count on it to keep society up and running.

i live the reality of capitalism I haven't done any of the things your monologging about the people who tower above me haven't fucked me over and the workers are content and getting better treatment then the public institutions so what the fuck? what reality? who's reality?


Just take a look around yourself. What do you know about favelas? Poverty rate in your own country? Etc.

Brazil ranks 49.3 in the Gini coefficient index, with the richest 10% of Brazilians receiving 42.7% of the nation's income, while the poorest 10% receive less than 1.2%.[1]


Don't tell me that everyone except 10% of Brazilians are incompetent idiots.

every one does..there cannot exist a system based off competition and profit if there is neither


And why should competition and profit be only things that matter? Beacouse that is how society seems to be thinking today. What about helping other people? Doing good for rest of the society? I might be too idealistic, but still...

Oh, and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_of_poverty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulati ... possession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-imperialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underclass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism



User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: EU, US, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealth

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:30 pm

In a June 2009 speech, U.S. President Barack Obama argued that a "culture of irresponsibility"[45] was an important cause of the crisis. He criticized executive compensation that "rewarded recklessness rather than responsibility" and Americans who bought homes "without accepting the responsibilities." He continued that there "was far too much debt and not nearly enough capital in the system. And a growing economy bred complacency."[46]
What a fucking hypocrite, this Obama.

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: EU, US, China, F-22, Eurofighter Typhoon and anti-stealt

Post by Picard » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:16 am

He's a corporate figurehead, nothing more.

EDIT:

http://the-diplomat.com/flashpoints-blo ... -undersea/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... faced.html

http://www.chimericawar.org/great_leap_ ... ning_Steel

http://www.chimericawar.org/great_leap_ ... hinese_R_D

http://www.chimericawar.org/page/page/8217180.htm

http://www.chimericawar.org/us_naval_update.html

http://www.chimericawar.org/great_leap_ ... ap_Forward

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... _China_Sea_

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... lobal_Time

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... _China_Sea

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... China_Seas

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... t_Spratlys

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... ertiveness

http://www.chimericawar.org/troubled_wa ... _China_Sea

http://www.chimericawar.org/art_of_war/ ... t_Fighting

http://www.chimericawar.org/art_of_war/ ... of_Defense

http://www.chimericawar.org/art_of_war/ ... t_fighting

(NOTE: Due to the (increasing) chinese dependance on us grain, this is (relatively) unlikely to happen 1 2 3 4 5 ).

http://www.chimericawar.org/total_warfa ... ed_Warfare

http://www.chimericawar.org/total_warfa ... oad_to_War

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... apons.html

http://www.mint.com/blog/trends/china-v ... omparison/

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41775174/US_Will ... onomy_Citi

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... t-century/

http://www.alaska.net/~chazmo/china.html

http://theintelhub.com/2011/06/26/unite ... d-war-iii/

http://shanghaiist.com/2009/05/25/klj_c ... ogs_is.php

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=16754

http://armscontrolcenter.org/policy/sec ... st_global/

http://www.technomaly.com/2010/01/27/di ... ns-poster/

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html

Added "China" to title due to this.

Mostly China trying (and succeeding) to scare US. US is superpower whose might is fading, but it will also happen to China one day... as it will to Russia, and any new superpower that might spring up (Brasil, EU (I hope it will never become a state like US, althought it is trying to), India). US is spending too much on wars, and on clearing up mess left by irresponsible corporations (althought some of links above hold opposite view). However, China must import most of raw resources that keep its economy up and running - especially food. Quality and quantity of arable land in China is quite low when compared to its population and world averages, and is insufficient to feed its entire populace. With its fast economic growth, situation is going to only worsen. Most of "US" products are made outside of US (Nike and other major corporations have long since relocated factories to the economic "third world" and China - only products I can remember from top of my head that are made in US are weapons), mostly in Indonesia and China, but unlike China, US not only can feed its populace (overfeeding some and underfeeding other parts of it) but can also export food. And lots of it. So, while China may be able to outproduce US, mainly due to its larger populace (about 4 times larger) it is dependant on food imports, and imports of some raw materials, as well as many finished products (China is probably keeping Russian weapons industry up and running on its own).

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... population

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/usachina.html

http://www.billshrink.com/blog/8482/the ... d-to-head/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... cial-media

http://seekingalpha.com/article/272370- ... comparison

Image

EDIT: How to make image smaller? I've tried few things but none work.

Post Reply