All about Serafina (Split)

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Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:19 pm

Serafina wrote:
Why yes, of course.
A quick Google search reveals such evidence in abundance, cited in prominent scientific magazines. They clearly show that transwomen have female brains.
I would not say that this is yet definitive (that always take a lot of work in science), but it's pretty strong evidence and fits with the observed development and characteristics of transsexuals.
(Hint: Use Google Scholar if you want to find scientifc studies).
How do you answer the fact that a study into the findings by Zhou/Kruijver (that was most of the material you linked above) were shown to reflect the effects of feminizing and masculinizing hormone therapy?.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:29 pm

Okay, that article confirms what was known already: The male and the female brain are more or less to 99 per cent identical.

But the small differences between the male and the female brain are making a big difference.

These differences are physiological and can be detected.

Insofar it is possible, e.g. for a pathologist to determine if a brain is male or female.

It is also known that in a transwoman the brain is not a typical male brain, that there are female characteristics too.

The question now is what a pathologist would say to the brain of a transwoman.

Would the pathologist say that
  • this is clearly a female brain,
  • that this is a male brain with a few female characteristics,
  • that it is a female brain with a few male characteristics or
  • that it is neither because it has characteristics of a male brain as well as characteristics of a female brain and he cannot decide if it is a male or a female brain?
The articles to which you have linked are only speaking of » female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus «.
Last edited by Who is like God arbour on Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:31 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Serafina wrote:
Why yes, of course.
A quick Google search reveals such evidence in abundance, cited in prominent scientific magazines. They clearly show that transwomen have female brains.
I would not say that this is yet definitive (that always take a lot of work in science), but it's pretty strong evidence and fits with the observed development and characteristics of transsexuals.
(Hint: Use Google Scholar if you want to find scientifc studies).
How do you answer the fact that a study into the findings by Zhou/Kruijver (that was most of the material you linked above) were shown to reflect the effects of feminizing and masculinizing hormone therapy?.
To quote from the study itself:
The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation.
Quite simply, hormones only influence it during the brains formation, not in adulthood.
Hence, the hormone treatment is not the cause of these differences.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:39 pm

Serafina wrote:
To quote from the study itself:
The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation.
Quite simply, hormones only influence it during the brains formation, not in adulthood.
Hence, the hormone treatment is not the cause of these differences.
That study seems to be out of date (1995).

A more recent study by Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) demonstrated the profound effect of transgender hormone therapy on brain volume in transsexuals: In eight MtF transsexuals treated for 4 months with ethinyl estradiol and CPA, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume decreased significantly with hormone therapy, based on pre- and post-treatment MRI studies. In a control group of nine untreated nontranssexual men, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume increased slightly over a similar period. In six FtM transsexuals treated for 4 months with testosterone, total brain volume increased and hypothalamic volume remained unchanged, whereas in a control group of six untreated nontranssexual women, total brain volume remained unchanged and hypothalamic volume decreased. Hulshoff Pol et al. wrote:

The findings suggest that treatment of MFs with estrogens and antiandrogens decreases the male brain size toward female proportions, whereas treatment of FMs with androgens (not substantially affecting circulating estrogen levels) increases the female brain size toward male proportions. The magnitude of this change (i.e., 31 ml over a 4-month period) is striking, since it signifies a decrease in brain volume, which is at least ten times the average decrease of about 2.5 ml a year in healthy adults. . . The total brain volume changes are at least in part due to changes in medial brain structures surrounding [the] ventricles (including, but not limited to, the hypothalamus . . .).




On the contrary, it now seems probable that estrogen treatment was responsible for the low mean BSTc volume and neuron number observed in the six MtF transsexuals studied and that testosterone treatment was responsible for the high BSTc volume and neuron number observed in the one FtM transsexual studied.

A significant weakness of the Zhou/Kruijver studies was the inclusion of only a few nontranssexual persons with elevated cross-sex hormone levels. This may partly explain why the Zhou/Kruijver investigators underestimated the potent effects of hormone treatment on the adult brain. Contrary to a popular misconception, the Zhou/Kruijver studies did not examine any nontranssexual men who had been treated with estrogen (for example, for prostate cancer) or any nontranssexual women who had been treated with testosterone.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:47 pm

Serafina wrote:There is no harm done to society, but there IS great harm to transsexuals if society doesn't permit it.
I don't think society has the right to "permit" or "deny" anything of that nature.
You feel you are a woman, then live as a woman.
It's your right as a human being to live anyway that you deem right, as long as it is not detrimental to others.
And in your case, it clearly isn't...
But you have to understand that not all around you will accept that, no matter how justified you feel about it.
Getting worked up over the opinion of someone you don't even know in RL, whom you'll probably never meet and who has no importance in your life isn't worth it, IMO...

This still doesn't mean that insults are more acceptable in constructive debates, or that the word "retard" is more acceptable then the word "trannie"...

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Re: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:50 pm

Okay then. Chicken out. Refuse to defend your position with science. Throw away your chance to show that you are not a stupid bigot. Show us that you are indeed not willing to change your mind, contrary to your claims.

Your claim that i would merely post point-by-point sentences is baseless, as i clearly said that i would make the opening argument, which can not have such a structure.
It would have been a clear, cited, evidenced argument. Evidently, you are either unable to recognize that implication or afraid of it.

You have one more chance to accept this challenge now that i have made this clear.
Your only objective reason to decline does not apply, so you have no reason not to take it.

Oh, and nice comparison there - clearly i am just as bad as a murderer. I don't know what politicians do in there, or why you put them on the same step as murderers.


Edit:
Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch is about warfare/peace between states.
It is a complete non-sequitur here.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:03 pm

Hmm, i honestly find that interesting, i will look into it.

However, that still is compatible with my explanation of transsexuality. Look at the results:
In FtM transsexuals, hormone treatment increased brain volume while no such change took place in non-transsexual biological women under equal treatment. It was the other way round for the hypothalamus.
In six FtM transsexuals treated for 4 months with testosterone, total brain volume increased and hypothalamic volume remained unchanged, whereas in a control group of six untreated nontranssexual women, total brain volume remained unchanged and hypothalamic volume decreased
Similar results are found in MtF transsexuals, the change in brain was in fact reversed with non-transsexual biological men.
In eight MtF transsexuals treated for 4 months with ethinyl estradiol and CPA, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume decreased significantly with hormone therapy, based on pre- and post-treatment MRI studies. In a control group of nine untreated nontranssexual men, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume increased slightly over a similar period.
That indicates that there is a substantial difference between transsexuals and non-transsexuals in regards of hormone/brain interaction. Otherwise, the results should have been identital (or at least similar) regardless if the subject is transsexual or not.
This might not be compatible with part of my premise, but it still indicates that transsexuality is something that either develops early or is genetic.

EDIT:
Eh, sorry - i did overlook the part where they siad that the controll group was untreated and did not receive similar treatment.
However, if that is the case, it does not in fact show that hormone treatment would have these effects regardless of whether one is transsexual or not. Combined with other studies, including psychological findings, there is still strong indication that one is born with transsexuality.
While the study does not directly support the conclusion i made, it is still allows that it applies. I'll try to dig out further evidence.

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Re: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:38 pm

See, even here you distort what I have said.

I wrote:
  • » I’d be more than delighted to read for a change instead of two, three staccato sentences from you a coherent essay which provides evidence for facts and draws comprehensible conclusions concerning transsexuals and their treatment from these facts; an essay that is not written assuming that non-transsexuals are as familiar with that topic as transsexuals. «
You replied:
  • » Your claim that i would merely post point-by-point sentences is baseless, as i clearly said that i would make the opening argument, which can not have such a structure.
    It would have been a clear, cited, evidenced argument. Evidently, you are either unable to recognize that implication or afraid of it.«
If you had read what I wrote, you would have understood that I did not conjectured that you would use in this debate your staccato sentences. I merely addressed your past use of them and expressed that I would be delighted to read for a change a coherent essay.

Or when I wrote:
  • » This respect does not exist between us and I do not want to give you the impression that I may respect you beyond the basic respect each human being, even murderers, child molesters or politicians are getting from me. «
you replied:
  • » Oh, and nice comparison there - clearly i am just as bad as a murderer. I don't know what politicians do in there, or why you put them on the same step as murderers. «
If you had read what I wrote, you would have understood that I did not said that you are as bad as a murderer. I spoke of the basic respect that each human being, even murderers, child molesters or politicians are getting from me. That is, what the German constitution calls inviolable human dignity.

In its most basic sense, human dignity describes the status of a person who enjoys equal rights and who is entitled to respect as a member of the human community irrespective of individual accomplishments (menschlicher Achtungsanspruch). Thus, even lazy or dumb persons and criminals deserve this level of respect. Human dignity is meant to convey an idea of absolute and inherent worth that does not need to be acquired and cannot be lost or sold. In Immanuel Kant's philosophy, the claim is made that rational beings have an intrinsic and absolute value, which is referred to as dignity.

And the respect of this dignity is all you can get from me until you earn more respect. Your last post showed it: Two distortions of what I have said in only one post. There is nothing respectable in your conduct.

And your attempt to issue an ultimatum is laughable. An ultimatum makes only sense if there is a repercussion if it is not fulfilled. And what can happen if I do not accept your challenge? Nothing. You have made it clear that I can nothing gain by accepting your challenge and can nothing lose by declining your challenge.

The only olive branch I'm willing to offer you is that I will listen to what you have to say. That's your chance to plead your case.

But be warned: Insults often times have the affect to antagonize someone and are usually not able to create good will or sympathy. And people do not forget so easily. What you wrote in other threads and SFJ or SDN, what you will write in this thread or in the other thread will always affect how people are perceiving you.

You may not care what I think.

But if you want to plead your case, it seems to be important to you what others are thinking of you. You should not antagonize them with your rude behaviour. Show them a little bit decorum.

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Re: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:41 pm

Serafina wrote:Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch is about warfare/peace between states.
It is a complete non-sequitur here.
Had you read the sixth preliminary article, you would know how wrong you are.

Besides, war is not only waged between nations.

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Re: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:52 pm

Well then, what possible reason do you have not to take up the debate?

It can't be the insults, since i promised not to use any.
It can't be my debating style (hardly a valid reason in the first place), since i would post a clear argument.
It can't be that you would be unable to find scientific evidence, since you claim to have scientific expertise.
It can't be that you are wrong, since you claim to be right.
So what is it then?

What i said were hardly distortions.
You clearly complained about my debating style, and you clearly put me on the same step as murderers (you could instead have said "like every human being").

You claim that you want to see a well-founded, solid argument. I would make such an argument in this debate, yet you refuse to listen to it.


Oh, and
Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch is about warfare/peace between states.
It is a complete non-sequitur here.
Had you read the sixth preliminary article, you would know how wrong you are.

Besides, war is not only waged between nations.
Do you mean that one:
Kant wrote:"No state shall, during war, permit such acts of hostility which would make mutual confidence in the subsequent peace impossible: such are the employment of assassins (percussores), poisoners (venefici), breach of capitulation, and incitement to treason (perduellio) in the opposing state"
Oi, where does it mention anything about debating?

Besides, this is a nice three-pack fallacy.
It's an appeal to authority (you said: "read this" instead of making your own argument), a red herring (intended to distract from the subject at hand) and a non sequitur (since this debate is about science, not philosophy).

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:07 pm

Serafina wrote:
EDIT:
Eh, sorry - i did overlook the part where they siad that the controll group was untreated and did not receive similar treatment.
It showed that the test subjects who took the hormone treatment developed brain characteristics that the earlier study claimed they would not and not only that but they were the core characeristics the study relied on for its final findings, it also found that the untreated test subjects did not change from the usual pattern of brain development.
However, if that is the case, it does not in fact show that hormone treatment would have these effects regardless of whether one is transsexual or not.
You cannot make such a HUGE claim based on what it does not show,...especially when the claim would mean that a transgendered persons brain would react the oposite to such treatment to a non transgender persons brain or visa versa....
Combined with other studies,

including psychological findings, there is still strong indication that one is born with transsexuality.
You cannot combine it and can i see links to the other studies the earlier ones you linked were just differant reports on the same material?.


In regards to psychological findings

The main support for the "feminine essence narrative" is that many male-to-female transsexuals say they feel it to be true; many autobiographical and clinical accounts by or about transsexual individuals contain variations of the statement of having a female soul or needing to make the external body resemble the inner or true self.

Critics of this narrative consider it to be inconsistent with their research findings, these sexologists have therefore posited that more than one motivator can lead a biological male to desire to live life as female, but that there is no evidence for a core essence of femininity.

Since the medical community has guidelines for what types of transsexuals qualify for sex reassignment surgery, transsexuals sometimes adopt and tell the story that they believe will help them qualify – the "transsexual narrative" representing themselves as "essentially female" – which may explain at least part of the prevalence of the feminine essence narrative.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:19 pm

It showed that the test subjects who took the hormone treatment developed brain characteristics that the earlier study claimed they would not and not only that but they were the core characeristics the study relied on for its final findings, it also found that the untreated test subjects did not change from the usual pattern of brain development.
Yes, of course - i was mistaken, as i said, and tough that the control group conisted of non-transsexuals under similar hormonal influence.
You cannot make such a HUGE claim based on what it does not show,...especially when the claim would mean that a transgendered persons brain would react the oposite to such treatment to a non transgender persons brain or visa versa....
Yes i can, since there is clear indication that transsexuals have a pre-birth difference (likely genetic) that influences the reception of hormones.
This is only the BBC, i have yet to find the actual study.
The main support for the "feminine essence narrative" is that many male-to-female transsexuals say they feel it to be true; many autobiographical and clinical accounts by or about transsexual individuals contain variations of the statement of having a female soul or needing to make the external body resemble the inner or true self.

Critics of this narrative consider it to be inconsistent with their research findings, these sexologists have therefore posited that more than one motivator can lead a biological male to desire to live life as female, but that there is no evidence for a core essence of femininity.

Since the medical community has guidelines for what types of transsexuals qualify for sex reassignment surgery, transsexuals sometimes adopt and tell the story that they believe will help them qualify – the "transsexual narrative" representing themselves as "essentially female" – which may explain at least part of the prevalence of the feminine essence narrative.
So you challenge the evidence (granted, i have yet to post it ;) )? Based on what?
Say then, how do you explain that children express exactly the desires that older transsexual report, in pretty much the same way?

Granted, yes, some transsexuals do lie about such things, but you can hardly claim that everyone does it.


Edit:
Damn, it's hard to find these papers online. Pretty much everything i am looking for needs a description. Either way, i'll keep on looking.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:41 pm

Serafina wrote:
You cannot make such a HUGE claim based on what it does not show,...especially when the claim would mean that a transgendered persons brain would react the oposite to such treatment to a non transgender persons brain or visa versa....
Yes i can, since there is clear indication that transsexuals have a pre-birth difference (likely genetic) that influences the reception of hormones.
This is only the BBC, i have yet to find the actual study.
I will try to find that study as well, i would like to see if it is exclusive to transsexuals or has a broader scope of effect (namely homosexuals ect).

And no it does not show that transexuals would respond differantly to a hormone therapy it just says the DNA analysis from 112 male-to-female transsexual volunteers showed they were more likely to have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene. And that the genetic difference may cause weaker testosterone signals.


Serafina wrote:So you challenge the evidence (granted, i have yet to post it ;) )? Based on what?
Say then, how do you explain that children express exactly the desires that older transsexual report, in pretty much the same way?

Granted, yes, some transsexuals do lie about such things, but you can hardly claim that everyone does it.
I have yet too se the evidence so i cannot directly challenge it yet, however i thought it would save time if i pointed out a few of the broader issues regarding "taking someones word for it" especially when the person does have a large personal bias.

And no i will not judge EVERY transgender by those that do use the "feminine essence narrative"......i would consider that a no limit fallacy after all :), however i will read the material carefully.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:09 pm

Well, i did not find what i was looking for right now, but i found something regarding brain development and hormones again.

A study from 2009:
During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no proof that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
Read:
Significant brain development takes place prior to birth. Abnormal development could be one of the causes of transsexuality.
Note that the latter doesn't necessarily mean that the brain is fully female. Indeed, that would be unlikely since development continues after birth, especially if we include your previous findings.

One from 2010:
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action
of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this
hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female
gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are
still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two
months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy,
these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in transsexuality.
This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization
of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that
social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
There is no indication that social environment influences gender identity.

A suggestion for examples of such hard-wired differences:
Transsexuals are individuals who identify as a member of the gender opposite to that which they are born. Many transsexuals report that they have always had a feeling of a mismatch between their inner gender-based "body image" and that of their body's actual physical form. Often transsexuals undergo gender reassignment surgery to convert their bodies to the sex they feel they should have been born. The vivid sensation of still having a limb although it has been amputated, a phantom limb, was first described by Weir Mitchell over a century ago. The same phenomenon is also occurs after amputation of the penis or a breast. Around 60% of men who have had to have their penis amputated for cancer will experience a phantom penis. It has recently been shown that a significant factor in these phantom sensations is "cross-activation" between the de-afferented cortex and surrounding areas. Despite this it also known that much of our body image is innately "hard-wired" into our brains; congenitally limbless patients can still experience phantom sensations. We hypothesise that, perhaps due to a dissociation during embryological development, the brains of transsexuals are "hard-wired" in manner, which is opposite to that of their biological sex. We go on to predict that male-to-female transsexuals will be much less likely to experience a phantom penis than a "normal" man who has had his penis amputated for another reason. The same will be true of female-to-male transsexuals who have had breast removal surgery. We also predict that some female-to-male transsexuals will have a phantom penis even although there is not one physically there. We believe that this is an easily testable hypothesis, which, if correct, would offer insights into both the basis of transsexuality and provide farther evidence that we have a gender specific body image, with a strong innate component that is "hard-wired" into our brains. This would furnish us with a better understanding the mechanism by which nature and nurture interact to link the brain-based internal body image with external sexual morphology. We would emphasise here that transsexuality should not be regarded as "abnormal" but instead as part of the spectrum of human behaviour.
Essentially, if a transsexuals brain was identical to that of a woman, one could expect to find phantom limb syndrome after GRS.

Note that none of the operated transsexuals i know report this, and that i know at least one transsexual who lost most of her male genitalia prior to starting any medical treatment for transsexuality and had no phantom limb syndrome.
Granted, that is not scientific evidence, i merely post this as an example.


Generally, i do not think that it is fair to dismiss pre-birth development as a cause for transsexuality out of hand. There are several conflicting studies, taking one over the other without reason is just not fair.
Your study merely showed that further development can take place in adults, and indicates that the brains of transwomen (transmen) are still different from biological women (men).
It does NOT show that there is no neurological cause, while the studies above seem to indicate it, especially if taken along with evidence for different hormonal reception and childhood transsexuality.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Serafina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:14 pm

I will try to find that study as well, i would like to see if it is exclusive to transsexuals or has a broader scope of effect (namely homosexuals ect).

And no it does not show that transexuals would respond differantly to a hormone therapy it just says the DNA analysis from 112 male-to-female transsexual volunteers showed they were more likely to have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene. And that the genetic difference may cause weaker testosterone signals.
Actually yes, it does just that.
If the signals of testosterone are weaker, then the effects will also be weaker.
They react differently to hormones.

As for homosexuality: IIRC, homosexuals express certain regions of the brain differently than heterosexuals. Put simply, a male homosexual will have similarities in these regions to a straigh woman (both attracted to men) etc.
I won't dig out evidence for this however, since it is at best tangential to the debate.

I have yet too se the evidence so i cannot directly challenge it yet, however i thought it would save time if i pointed out a few of the broader issues regarding "taking someones word for it" especially when the person does have a large personal bias.

And no i will not judge EVERY transgender by those that do use the "feminine essence narrative"......i would consider that a no limit fallacy after all :), however i will read the material carefully.
But if you have consistent reports between different age groups and social groups, taken by people who are trained to analyze for such consistency, there is a pattern you have to explain.
You can't dismiss a pattern based on a few errors in it.


Edit:
Some extra evidence, tough it's a bit exotic
The different number of fingerprint ridges on the left compared to the right hand originates in the first trimester of pregnancy and remains unchanged. Leftward asymmetry, that is more ridges on the left, is more common in females. Males have a higher total ridge count for both hands. We studied 270 male-to-female transsexuals and 54 female-to-male transsexuals, plus 220 male and female controls. Male controls had a higher ridge count than female controls. Male and female controls did not differ on directional asymmetry. On directional asymmetry, homosexual male transsexuals differed from control males. Homosexual male and female transsexuals combined differed from male and female controls combined. Heterosexual male and female transsexuals combined did not differ from controls. Male non-homosexual transsexuals showed greater dermatoglyphic fluctuating asymmetry than all other groups combined. The data show an association between dermatoglyphics and sexual orientation, not transsexualism per se and dermatoglyphics.
Yet more evidence for pre-birth differences between transsexuals and non-transsexuals.

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