All about Serafina (Split)

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Trinoya
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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Trinoya » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:13 pm

While I do agree that numerous board rules have been broken JMS, I also feel this constituted a gray area where one side has to play by the rules while another would not due to cross board fighting. All rules are not equal, nor is enforcement based on whatever board you happen to be on at a certain point in time.

I propose that in the spirit of this board we do not allow threads to function as this one has. It was confusing and difficult to follow for myself (especially since I've mostly been using the internet on my phone to follow it) and not all board rules are equal. Sadly I would have really enjoyed commenting earlier to offer my expertise on the transgendered and gender identity (one of my areas of study), but simply couldn't follow it often enough or easily enough to be able to contribute.

As we have seen in the past not everyone at SDN is unreasonable (and in fact some users have improved both their debate style and their respect for others), as such I think it wouldn't be too much to ask that both forums respect the spirit of debate and we put an end to cross forum debating between the two sites. If we wish to debate with one another we can do it at one forum or another.

As such I propose we add to the rules that this style of debating be prohibited. Join the forum or don't. It's one of the most open and easy-to-join forums and the rules can't possibly be that much of a deterrent to joining. If it is something that still continues to happen (with a large influx of posts based on cross board disputes) then we could even create an extra forum just for it so they are easy to find.

Respectfully, I shall go back to lurking now JMS. ^__^

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by The Dude » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:20 pm

Seconded.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:44 pm

Guess what - i didn't bring it up. I asked for being addressed as female when Kor started to address me as male. When he did not want to do that due to thinking that i was "faking", i pointed out that i am transgendered and showed that i am not faking. If i had been talking to tolerant persons, that would have been it.

But of course, Kor and AVOCADO had to harp on it - and i won't bigotry go unchallenged. I did not start this, and i am not the one who is intolerant (except of bigotry).
I am not a bigot and nothing i posted shows otherwise, however in regards to my actions in this matter your constant abuse and insulting attacks directed at me exceeded my tolerance for such things and i replied in kind, and with considerable restraint compared to things i could have posted.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:34 pm

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by The Dude » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:43 pm

WTF did you do to the formatting?

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:47 pm

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:41 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:ImageImageImageImageImageImage
This is not a moon... it's... it's a battle station!
Feels like zooming on an old piece of cake. You see all the little things you never suspect to exist. :)

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:46 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is not a moon... it's... it's a battle station!
Feels like zooming on an old piece of cake. You see all the little things you never suspect to exist. :)
I do not understand. Does this refer to the format of my post or its content?

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:50 pm

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:53 pm

Serafina, it totally depends on your answer if I will continue that debate. If your answer does not convince me that you are interested in more than only insulting me, I will not even answer you any more.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Trinoya » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:20 pm

Gah the formatting!! My eyes! The goggles they do nothing!

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by The Dude » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:38 pm

For Christ sake man, shrink the fonts!

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:47 pm

@Who is like God arbour

From what i have seen of your arguments (ive not read all of them but i did read a few initially) you are not what i would call a bigot, but then im not what id call a bigot either but she called me one as well.

Maybe making a list of bullet points stateing your feelings regarding the subject matter would clear things up.........oh wait you did that already and from what i see your still not a bigot.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:56 pm

To shrink the font is not necessary any more. I will not continue the debate and I don't care if Serafina will quote something out of this post.

The last post of Serafina has convinced me that he is not really interested in debating that topic but to drag it on ad infinitum.

To give only two examples – and not more because Serafina will use everything I say to try to continue that pseudo-debate:
  • In his last post he wrote » You then go on to attack my comparison of you to Nazis, white supremacists etc., claiming that i stated that you are similar. I did no such thing, you are not as bad as them. «

    Have I misunderstood him?

    Let’s see what he has written in his earlier posts:

    After I stated that I think that I’m not a bigot because I think to have » a good comprehensible reason for my opinion «, he replied: » So had the Nazis, american-christian fundamentalists, white supremacist, gay-hating groups etc. etc. «

    In my next post I wrote that » Now I even get compared with Nazis, American-Christian fundamentalists, white supremacists, gay-hating groups etc. etc. « and he replied » Yes, you are. Because you use stunningly similar rhetoric. «.

    Hands up!

    Who thinks, after reading that, that Serafina has not compared me with Nazis, American-Christian fundamentalists, white supremacists, gay-hating groups etc. etc.?

    Who thinks that I’m comparable bad as Nazis, American-Christian fundamentalists, white supremacists, gay-hating groups etc. etc but not yet as bad as them (maybe because I still haven’t murdered millions or at least haven’t propagandised their murder)?
  • In my last post I wrote » that sex is basically the only criteria when the grammar gender is chosen for the addressing of an individual because the grammar gender is sex based and not gender based. « In the same post, I elaborated, that » the grammar genders of the German language […] are based only on two sexes and a neuter that is basically reserved for non–living things or categories that can’t be seen as only male or female « and that » there are exemption from that rule who cannot be explained but have to be internalised when learning the language. « In an earlier post of me, I provided already an example tor such exemption: » In the German language e.g. a man is masculine (der Mann) and a woman is feminine (die Frau), but while a boy is masculine (der Junge), a girl is neuter (das Mädchen). «

    Please notice I stated that sex is basically the only criteria when the grammar gender is chosen for the addressing of an individual. I have not spoken of the grammar gender of things.

    And what was Serafina’s reply?

    He wrote below the quotation of the first of the above quoted sentences: » Oh, really? I guess there are no sex-less items then that are addressed with gender-pronouns, eh? Oh, wait - die Pfeife, der Ball, der Rasen, der Schuh, die Tribüne (since we have that much football around anyway). Your claim is simply baseless. «

    That shows how much he has contemplated what I wrote. Or how much he has contemplated how to reply to what I have written.

    I do not see the relevance of which grammar gender sex-less items have when the question is how an individual has to be addressed.

    But maybe Serafina wants to argue that he is a sex-less item.

    But even if, it ignores that even then the grammar gender of Serafina, the sex-less item, is a question that cannot be answered with a rule.

    Because there is no rule that explains why die Pfeife (the pipe) or die Tribüne (the stand) is feminine and der Ball (the football), der Rasen (the lawn) or der Schuh (the shoe) is masculine.

    Der Mensch (the human-being), der Hund (the dog), der Leichnam (the corpse) is also masculine while das Wesen (the entity), das Pferd (the horse) or das Organ (the organ) is neuter.

    Why should Serafina, the sex-less item, be feminine when it could be masculine or neuter as well? Because he says so?


Let’s summarize what happened in that thread:

Instead of self-assured saying » I’m a transwoman, someone with a male sex and female gender and I do want nothing more of you than that you let me live the way I want to live « Serafina says » Pssst, I’m a transwoman. That means although I have a male sex my gender is female. But please now forget the fact that my sex is male and do not think of me as transsexual, a person with a male sex and female gender, but think of me as a “real” woman. «

Then he ignored each attempt to explain that it is not possible to willingly forget knowledge and that who knows that he has a male sex will, although the person might pretend to see him only as a “real” woman and will even change the way of speaking to make the act more convincing, always know that he has a male sex and will therefore think of him as someone male (with a female gender).

For Serafina it is not enough to be treated as a transsexual, that means letting him live as he wants and support him where it is necessary, no, he wants to dictate what we have to think or at least that we have to pretend to think something we know to be wrong.

We have to pretend that we do not know that he is no “real” woman but a transwoman and have to think of him only as a “real” woman.

Who is not able to forget facts or not willing to pretend something is, by default, a discriminating, intolerant bigot.

And let’s not forget the demanded abuse of language. The demand to use the female gender when addressing someone with a male sex equals the demand to change the grammar gender of e.g. sex-less items. To say das Pfeife, das Tribüne, das Rasen or die Schuh; die Mensch, die Hund, die Leichnam or der Pferd and der Organ sounds totally wrong because it is a violation of the German language. How it is done right can you see above. Maybe for a English-native-speaker that is not so important because the English language is not using different definite articles as we are [O]. But because we are using such definite articles and it is important to use the right article, we learn quasi from birth the grammar gender of each German word and are not contemplating which grammar gender we are using. We simply know because it is ingrained in our thinking by the German language. It is the same when addressing an individual. We do not really contemplate which grammar gender we have to use. We automatically chose the grammar gender that matches the assumed sex and do not ask for the gender of a person.

I finish that post with the famous words of Rosa Luxemburg:
                    • [list] [list] [list] [list] [list] [list] [list] [list] [list] [list]» Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters «
[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]





Addendum:
The German people – or rather the Federal Convention has elected a new President today: Christian Wulff.

He is a German politician who was strictly against the Allgemeine Gleichbehandlungsgesetz (Common non-discrimination law). In a speech 2005 in front of the German Bundesrat he said » We do not want to keep courts busy, we want to employ people « (» Wir wollen nicht die Gerichte beschäftigen, wir wollen Menschen beschäftigen «). The state in which he was Prime Minister until he was elected President, Lower Saxony, belongs to the last states of Germany which have adjusted their state law to the federal Life Partnership Law that recognizes same sex unions. Only during his second mandate and only under the pressure of the Liberals which were coaliton partner of his party, was the state law adjusted.

Christian Wulff is a member of the board of trustees of the movement ProChrist, a revival meeting, which tries to convert people to the belief into Jesus. Two weeks ago, he said in a speech in front of the bible centre of Bad Gandersheim (Bibelzentrum Bad Gandersheim), after he was invited by the fundamentalist Working Committee of Christian Publicists (Arbeitskreis christlicher Publizisten), that he will fight against the adulteration of the biblical message (Verwässerung der biblischen Botschaft).

He believes in Creationism and dismisses evolution and opposes abortion [OOOOOO].
I do not know if he has said anything about transsexuals. But somehow I do not believe that his opinion about transsexuals is friendlier than his opinion about homosexuals or atheists.

I’m afraid that this is a black day – not only for Serafina.

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Re: All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:12 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:I do not understand. Does this refer to the format of my post or its content?
It's all about the style, bro. The style. Nothing else. :)
Who is like God arbour wrote:[OOOOOO]
The Eyes of the Spiderrr!

It's possible that he's not all against abortion, but against the practice of abortion outside of cases resulting from violence against women and sexual abuse.

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