Swine Flu: Is it the next Spanish influenza pandemic?

[PunkMaister]

OK is one thing to say is man made and quite another to say it was deliberate even more so for profit as you are now claiming, think about it, it could take up 9 months or more before a vaccine is finally mass produced in enough quantities to inoculate people and by then God only knows how many people could die all over the world whether your country is rich or poor won't matter a bit. Whatever profit these companies stand to make pale in comparison to the social and economic devastation that these disease could provoke. Is like that crazy Capital one commercials where they are stranded in an island and after one guy manages to get an up link via a sat phone or something like that to the internet what he does first is make a personalized credit card, then another individual accidentally makes the monitor and generator fall into the water and burn leaving everyone forever stranded and doomed to die of hunger and thirst but is OK because he has a brand new personalized credit card although he will never get to use it. Yes Mr O they made such a commercial I've seen it. The point is the scenario here is pretty much just as senseless. Only an A.Q Jihadist or something like that would be comfortable with such an scenario. Since they cherish Death, pain and suffering of others above all else. (Their words not mine as they have stated "You love life, we love death")

[Mr. Oragahn]

OK is one thing to say is man made and quite another to say it was deliberate even more so for profit as you are now claiming, think about it, it could take up 9 months or more before a vaccine is finally mass produced in enough quantities to inoculate people and by then God only knows how many people could die all over the world whether your country is rich or poor won't matter a bit. Whatever profit these companies stand to make pale in comparison to the social and economic devastation that these disease could provoke. Is like that crazy Capital one commercials where they are stranded in an island and after one guy manages to get an up link via a sat phone or something like that to the internet what he does first is make a personalized credit card, then another individual accidentally makes the monitor and generator fall into the water and burn leaving everyone forever stranded and doomed to die of hunger and thirst but is OK because he has a brand new personalized credit card although he will never get to use it. Yes Mr O they made such a commercial I've seen it. The point is the scenario here is pretty much just as senseless. Only an A.Q Jihadist or something like that would be comfortable with such an scenario. Since they cherish Death, pain and suffering of others above all else. (Their words not mine as they have stated "You love life, we love death")

Your post is a bit messy, you know.

I won't speak about the mind-impregnating Al Qaeda Jihadist image, and point to you that we have proof that deliberate contamination of people has been done in the past.

We have it with AIDS tainted blood, it's pretty sure they did for the flu vaccine considering the risks of accident are near zero, and Fort Dix is just all too convenient and weird considering the mass vaccination campaign that followed the scare.
That's all for the money.

Could it be self destructive in the end? Who knows?

Consider this anyway: the media are all hammering the idea that it's a massive pandemic, that it's too late, that it's going to take some time to get the right vaccine, yaddla yaddla, unless they go for the VLP vaccines, and they're making it compulsory to get the shot. They're even preparing the Guilt Campaign: if you deny the shot to your kids, you're a monster, worse than a rapist and so on.

I actually get the feeling you didn't read the links that much. Am I right?

[Mr. Oragahn]

OK, they need to grab this infected by healthy kid and slice and dice him so we can extract the much necessary vaccine.
It's for the good of the whole.

[PunkMaister]

OK, they need to grab this infected by healthy kid and slice and dice him so we can extract the much necessary vaccine.
It's for the good of the whole.

No actually if he is immune all we would need is a sample of his blood to try to replicate his antibodies.

[2046]

When I pulled up this thread on page two and started skimming I saw what looked like PM replying to a conspiracy nut, but I honestly didn't believe it because I half expected the conspiracy nut to be him.

But as has been known to happen before, Oragahn, you have emerged with the most astonishing claim.

In this case, you have declared the Mexican Flu to be a targeted attack against hispanics due to, among other things, live flu being "accidentally" part of a flu vaccine by Baxter.

Perhaps you were not informed of this, but:

(1) almost all vaccines are made from live samples of the offending virus, so even if your claims of live virus in vaccine were true it should not be a complete shock like getting "shot, stabbed and put on fire the same day you'd win million of dollars on the lottery."

(2) You got your information from psycho-lefty conspiracy nut websites like OpEdNews, which your post is a fair summary of, even down to some phrasings.

Certainly the main idea is there, wherein the psycho lefty loons claim that it was a vaccine that was sent out that was destined to go into people that had live virus in it. That is a lie. The Toronto Sun article, which you even had the gall to link to, makes it obvious that this was not a vaccine, but a virus sample (see #1!) sent to a research company.

In short, you need to refrain from reading . . . or learn how to identify . . . poor news sources written by conspiracist lefties.

In another case altogether, you find a press release from March 9 showing that Sanofi-Aventis had signed the paperwork to build a brand new vaccine manufacturing facility in Mexico, with construction starting "within a few weeks".

Frankly, I consider your response an affront to reason. Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. Reading comprehension:

But the very short document does makes mention of a "virulent virus, newly infectious for humans, and for which there is no preexisting immunity."

That's because you're quoting a background section describing what pandemic influenza is.

You act like it's some evil foreshadowing, when in fact they're simply describing what we've seen from pandemic influenza time and again.

If I say that tomorrow morning, somewhere in the east, a fireball will be visible from your location . . . is that a threat or is it sunrise?

2. Basic ignorance:

The document is dated March 9, 2009. So it is just pure fluke that nearly two months prior to the rise of the new A/H1N1, which took the world off guard, these drug giants decided to expand their facilities near Mexico?

First, they are not expanding their facilities . . . the article is clear that it is a new build. The existing facilities in the region are Mexican federal facilities.

Your factual discrepancy out of the way, let us address the main thrust. You seem to think that somehow SA has "expanded" their facilities already. Personally I rather doubt they've even got the foundation dry, but in your mind they got the facility up and running and cranking out Mexican flu within about a month, assuming that we could pretend the earliest Mexican flu case was contracted April 9.

This is so absurd it scarcely requires attention, but suffice it to say that you have scandalously unrealistic ideas on building construction and logistics.

3. You claim the "expanded" facility is located in Ocoyoacac, and argue that this could be ground zero for the Mexican flu.

You are profoundly uninformed and attempting to spread that condition.

Press reports place CDC and WHO folks in the Mexican state of Veracruz, focusing on the town of La Gloria.

That is around 175km east of Mexico City, whereas your accusation features the claim that since Sanofi-Aventis has some sort of business space in the Ocoyoacac industrial park, 20km west-southwest from Mexico City, it is somehow "in the region where it all started. Oh... BIG. FUCKING. SURPRISE."

Yes, it is clearly in the region where it all started, because it is clearly somewhere in Mexico. Just like every other company there. Perhaps Ford, McDonald's, or some other such evil corporation was the true culprit!

Dumbass.

4. "Sanofi-Aventis is the world leader flu vaccine producer," you say.

Then shut the frak up and let them do their job, instead of being so anti-capitalist that any corporation that has success must be considered evil and suspect.

##################

And yet, based on those and similar epistemological catastrophes, you then proudly finish with this conclusion:

Oh yeah. The conclusion? Well, while this started as a message to suggest, eventually, that there were reasons to consider this spread as non-accidental, the more I typed it, the more it became clear that the surprising and mysterious outbreak (hey, like in 1976!) appears to be neither.

Now, filthy Mexicanos, you die.

In other words, you have completely embarrassed yourself and don't even know it. You even provide motive to your imagined crime in the forms of racism and unbridled greed, without troubling yourself to provide evidence for either.

Basically, it is classic psychotic conspiracism, with a predictably leftist slant. This was a disgusting display on your part. Your intellectual vapidity and general mental buffoonery from that post is inexcusable.

You should apologize to the group. And before you complain that I've been mean to you for having absolutely no patience with your inexcusable behavior, please consider the fact that I've been kinder than such behavior deserves.

Good day.

[Mr. Oragahn]

OK, they need to grab this infected by healthy kid and slice and dice him so we can extract the much necessary vaccine.
It's for the good of the whole.

No actually if he is immune all we would need is a sample of his blood to try to replicate his antibodies.

I was not serious.

[PunkMaister]

OK, they need to grab this infected by healthy kid and slice and dice him so we can extract the much necessary vaccine.
It's for the good of the whole.

No actually if he is immune all we would need is a sample of his blood to try to replicate his antibodies.

I was not serious.

LOL. Sometimes is just too hard to read you Mr O...

But as has been known to happen before, Oragahn, you have emerged with the most astonishing claim.

In this case, you have declared the Mexican Flu to be a targeted attack against hispanics due to, among other things, live flu being "accidentally" part of a flu vaccine by Baxter.

Perhaps you were not informed of this, but:

(1) almost all vaccines are made from live samples of the offending virus, so even if your claims of live virus in vaccine were true it should not be a complete shock like getting "shot, stabbed and put on fire the same day you'd win million of dollars on the lottery."

(2) You got your information from psycho-lefty conspiracy nut websites like OpEdNews, which your post is a fair summary of, even down to some phrasings.

Certainly the main idea is there, wherein the psycho lefty loons claim that it was a vaccine that was sent out that was destined to go into people that had live virus in it. That is a lie. The Toronto Sun article, which you even had the gall to link to, makes it obvious that this was not a vaccine, but a virus sample (see #1!) sent to a research company.

In short, you need to refrain from reading . . . or learn how to identify . . . poor news sources written by conspiracist lefties.

In another case altogether, you find a press release from March 9 showing that Sanofi-Aventis had signed the paperwork to build a brand new vaccine manufacturing facility in Mexico, with construction starting "within a few weeks".

Frankly, I consider your response an affront to reason. Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. Reading comprehension:

But the very short document does makes mention of a "virulent virus, newly infectious for humans, and for which there is no preexisting immunity."

That's because you're quoting a background section describing what pandemic influenza is.

You act like it's some evil foreshadowing, when in fact they're simply describing what we've seen from pandemic influenza time and again.

If I say that tomorrow morning, somewhere in the east, a fireball will be visible from your location . . . is that a threat or is it sunrise?

2. Basic ignorance:

The document is dated March 9, 2009. So it is just pure fluke that nearly two months prior to the rise of the new A/H1N1, which took the world off guard, these drug giants decided to expand their facilities near Mexico?

First, they are not expanding their facilities . . . the article is clear that it is a new build. The existing facilities in the region are Mexican federal facilities.

Your factual discrepancy out of the way, let us address the main thrust. You seem to think that somehow SA has "expanded" their facilities already. Personally I rather doubt they've even got the foundation dry, but in your mind they got the facility up and running and cranking out Mexican flu within about a month, assuming that we could pretend the earliest Mexican flu case was contracted April 9.

This is so absurd it scarcely requires attention, but suffice it to say that you have scandalously unrealistic ideas on building construction and logistics.

3. You claim the "expanded" facility is located in Ocoyoacac, and argue that this could be ground zero for the Mexican flu.

You are profoundly uninformed and attempting to spread that condition.

Press reports place CDC and WHO folks in the Mexican state of Veracruz, focusing on the town of La Gloria.

That is around 175km east of Mexico City, whereas your accusation features the claim that since Sanofi-Aventis has some sort of business space in the Ocoyoacac industrial park, 20km west-southwest from Mexico City, it is somehow "in the region where it all started. Oh... BIG. FUCKING. SURPRISE."

Yes, it is clearly in the region where it all started, because it is clearly somewhere in Mexico. Just like every other company there. Perhaps Ford, McDonald's, or some other such evil corporation was the true culprit!

Dumbass.

4. "Sanofi-Aventis is the world leader flu vaccine producer," you say.

Then shut the frak up and let them do their job, instead of being so anti-capitalist that any corporation that has success must be considered evil and suspect.

##################

And yet, based on those and similar epistemological catastrophes, you then proudly finish with this conclusion:

Oh yeah. The conclusion? Well, while this started as a message to suggest, eventually, that there were reasons to consider this spread as non-accidental, the more I typed it, the more it became clear that the surprising and mysterious outbreak (hey, like in 1976!) appears to be neither.

Now, filthy Mexicanos, you die.

In other words, you have completely embarrassed yourself and don't even know it. You even provide motive to your imagined crime in the forms of racism and unbridled greed, without troubling yourself to provide evidence for either.

Basically, it is classic psychotic conspiracism, with a predictably leftist slant. This was a disgusting display on your part. Your intellectual vapidity and general mental buffoonery from that post is inexcusable.

You should apologize to the group. And before you complain that I've been mean to you for having absolutely no patience with your inexcusable behavior, please consider the fact that I've been kinder than such behavior deserves.

Good day.[/quote]

As I said Mr O. is very hard to read, sometimes he comes out as hardcore leftist/socialist and others it seems to be quite the opposite...

[Mr. Oragahn]

When I pulled up this thread on page two and started skimming I saw what looked like PM replying to a conspiracy nut, but I honestly didn't believe it because I half expected the conspiracy nut to be him.
But as has been known to happen before, Oragahn, you have emerged with the most astonishing claim.

I'm happy to astonish you.
So let's see what kind of "argument" or even point you're painfully trying to make now.

In this case, you have declared the Mexican Flu to be a targeted attack against hispanics due to, among other things, live flu being "accidentally" part of a flu vaccine by Baxter.

The second part is not exact. It was merely a reminder of what already happened before, and served to build a context for the other references.

Perhaps you were not informed of this, but:

(1) almost all vaccines are made from live samples of the offending virus, so even if your claims of live virus in vaccine were true it should not be a complete shock like getting "shot, stabbed and put on fire the same day you'd win million of dollars on the lottery."

Of course it has to be a complete shock, because such a mixing is not supposed to occur. The idea that the product was not even properly sampled and analyzed out from a BSL-3 facility is too funny for words, not serious.

(2) You got your information from psycho-lefty conspiracy nut websites like OpEdNews, which your post is a fair summary of, even down to some phrasings.

You know, I don't give a shit what source the information comes from, because them, and other sources which themselves do not indulge in conspiracy talk, point to mainstream websites which have nothing to do with conspiracy themes at all. But it's very easy to lie and make stupid and lazy amalgams, and dismiss information by attacking the persons, the messengers.
It's a traditional tactic actually, but it shouldn't be confused for anything but a large fallacy.
You live in this fantastic world where even when your nose is wedged into dog shit, you still pretend it smells rose.
I don't even know why you run to the defense of the big corporations and organizations when there are facts about their corruption which cannot be dismissed, no matter how hard you try.

You can go lalala all along but you're not looking serious doing so.

And of course, any disagreement always has to boil down to stupid evil leftists vs. right wing guys, as we can see below and for the rest of the post:

Certainly the main idea is there, wherein the psycho lefty loons claim that it was a vaccine that was sent out that was destined to go into people that had live virus in it. That is a lie. The Toronto Sun article, which you even had the gall to link to, makes it obvious that this was not a vaccine, but a virus sample (see #1!) sent to a research company.

No, let's get it clear. Baxter, the offending side, called it "experimental virus material", implying that the material in question, called product (which is not exactly the same) was not to be considered anything near the final composition, as we are to understand that it was just a test, down the ladder.
The magazine, however, is not swayed by such an attempt at redisigning the status of the shipment, which is described as product, and the original Czech articles clearly talk about vaccines:

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/zpravy/kontam ... -cr/363674
http://zpravy.idnes.cz/unik-viru-je-obc ... domaci_anv
http://zpravy.idnes.cz/rakouska-ptaci-c ... domaci_abr

Here are the respective Google enabled translations:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... n&ie=UTF-8

and

It is a trade secret, the company refuses to comment on vaccine escape death
text size:
18. Feb 2009 4:07
Austrian branch of the U.S. pharmaceutical company Baxter examines the European Medicines Agency (EMEA). It happened after the pharmacists from the Austrian Ortho sent to the Czech Republic to test influenza vaccine, which were infested with deadly bird flu virus H5N1.
In an Austrian laboratory, exploring how to escape the bird flu virus in the Czech Republic. Controls almost nebyly.foto: Profimedia.cz

In an Austrian laboratory, exploring how to escape the bird flu virus in the Czech Republic. Checks have been almost.

Because of the case, which drew the attention of MF DNES, will probably change the laws.

"We want to make any vaccine or medicine to come into the Czech Republic to test, should documentation, testing, that is not contaminated. Or we can examine ourselves in the national reference laboratory. Yet this was not the case," highlights the main hygienist and Deputy Minister of Health Michael Vit.

Research company on the bioassay of Konarovice Kolín, which tested the vaccine on fretkách had tests the week end and killing infected animals. Thirteen people who worked with the vaccine, given the antiviral drug Tamiflu immediately, and still are under the supervision of exceptional hygienist.

"According to laboratory tests, fortunately, people are not infected," said Vit. The Laboratory in Konarovice is now clean. "We are back to putting," says Jan Zábský of the bioassay.

Research on fretkách duly authorized the Ministry of Industry and Trade. Annually the department will commission approval more than a hundred similar studies. The problem is that it has no supervisory powers.

New research should all be under the supervision of the Ministry of Health together with the State Institute for Drug Control. His staff now Austrians will have to explain what went wrong and who is responsible for it.

"It was a procedural error, which took place in our office, you can not tell the details. I revealed our trade secrets. I can not make sure that we immediately take measures to ensure that similar errors have happened," said MF DNES spokesman of the U.S. Baxter Richard Tischler.

According to him the error related only to supplies for the Czech company bioassay. Baxter is one of six international companies that are authorized to develop influenza vaccine. In its labs and keep deadly virus bird flu, because the vaccine is produced against him.
Hole in the law

In Konarovice the tested vaccine, which was intended to flu for Europeans in the next season. About how to become that he was "dangerous virus" in the Czech p?ibalen shipments, experts shall act now.

Something similar has happened in the Czech Republic. "It's an extraordinary thing. I don 't remember that in this area, something happened. It's a hole in the legislation to which we were not prepared," means Prymula Roman, President of the Czech vakcinologické society.

According to him, in the Czech Republic tested huge number of substances, but few of them belong to the most dangerous category. These experiments will be subject to special security measures.

"It does not cost you disguise that this is a huge mess. Make a similar mistake in the U.S. last sixty years before the children who got polio. Some time later, scientists in Germany have changed vaccine against tuberculosis. Vaccinated people then ill this disease," says the head of the Center vaccination and travel medicine Jiri Beran.

and

Austrian bird flu went to the Czech Republic and Germany
text size:
4. March 2009 4:54
Deadly bird flu virus is an uncontrolled run simultaneously in several places in Europe. According to the findings of MF DNES tested people from the Austrian branch of an international pharmaceutical company Baxter "contaminated vaccine" not only in the laboratory in the Czech Republic in the Kolín Konarovice but also in the two neighboring countries.
The risk that the avian flu gets out of the laboratory, according to Baxter is very low. Illustration foto.foto: Profimedia.cz

The risk that the avian flu gets out of the laboratory, according to Baxter is very low. Illustration.

"The vaccine infected with bird flu testing in the Austria, Czech Republic, Germany and Slovenia. And all this problem," says principal sanitarian and Deputy Health Minister Michael Vit.

In none of the laboratories had no idea. Last January the poslali pharmacists inadvertently from Austria in four laboratories for research virus, which is registered for its hazard to the list of potential biological weapons. - Read to the Czech Republic received the vaccine infected with deadly bird flu virus

Now the Czech laboratory prosecutes first institution - State Office for Nuclear Safety.

Office, which is in charge of biosecurity is one of Austria or the Czech side has informed. Sam pharmaceutical company Baxter is infected shipment until six days later, when the ferrets in which the substance is tested, started to behave abnormally.

"It is a breach notification requirement. In so doing, the bird flu virus H5N1 is one of the list of dangerous substances," refers to Dana Drabova, President of the State Office for Nuclear Safety.

S konárovickou by bioassay, which contaminated consignment tested, therefore, in coming days, start the administrative procedure. "If the fault proves, there is a fine, which may in extreme cases up to five million crowns," he adds Drabova.

Already weeks are infected because of the shipment to the feet hygienic, veterinarians and the State Institute for Drug Control. The Austrian branch of the supervisors started the European Medicines Agency.

Although the company says that nothing similar can not happen, we can expect additional sanctions. "The case is not yet closed," notes Joseph in April of the State Veterinary Administration.
"I never do"

Baxter, however, refutes that if they were testing flu vaccine for humans. "We sent out into the Czech society bioassay for research net ordinary flu virus and the exchange happened that sent the bird flu virus. It was a confusion of test material," says a representative of the Austrian branch of Baxter Richard Tischler.

According to him, was a risk that the avian flu gets out of the laboratory, very low. "The procedure that was used to produce research material, to never repeat not," explains Tischler.

All four test laboratories are cleaned, workers who worked with the virus, given the drug Tamiflu, and are still under medical supervision. "None of the Czech workers has been infected," says Vit.

We can appreciate how Baxter's final line on this is it was a mere confusion!

Oops!

In short, you need to refrain from reading . . . or learn how to identify . . . poor news sources written by conspiracist lefties.

You do realize, I hope, that even the official line about 9/11, about Al Qaeda and Bin Laden (oh where is he now?) and their plan of attack against the US territory, was a conspiracy, right?
You do understand the meaning of the word?

Your fixation against anything that is "left" is so worrying that I wouldn't be surprised if you'd blame "Leftists" and "Commies" were your house to burn by accident.

The truth is that once again, it has nothing to do with left or right.
But, hey, don't make any effort to understand that!

In another case altogether, you find a press release from March 9 showing that Sanofi-Aventis had signed the paperwork to build a brand new vaccine manufacturing facility in Mexico, with construction starting "within a few weeks".

Frankly, I consider your response an affront to reason. Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. Reading comprehension:

But the very short document does makes mention of a "virulent virus, newly infectious for humans, and for which there is no preexisting immunity."

That's because you're quoting a background section describing what pandemic influenza is.

You act like it's some evil foreshadowing, when in fact they're simply describing what we've seen from pandemic influenza time and again.

If I say that tomorrow morning, somewhere in the east, a fireball will be visible from your location . . . is that a threat or is it sunrise?

You're blowing things out of proportions. I merely pointed out how the document was "ready". Of course on their own, these words are not meaningful and quite casually thrown around.
But when it comes to such companies, the silver is in the details.

As we can see, of course, this had nothing to do with reading comprehension. You could at best pretend "flawed conclusion" or "fallacious implication", but I guess you were just too hasty in your finger pointing and mud slinging to really care at that point.

2. Basic ignorance:

The document is dated March 9, 2009. So it is just pure fluke that nearly two months prior to the rise of the new A/H1N1, which took the world off guard, these drug giants decided to expand their facilities near Mexico?

First, they are not expanding their facilities . . . the article is clear that it is a new build. The existing facilities in the region are Mexican federal facilities.

It's written in the document you dolt:

"The new influenza vaccine plant will be built in Ocoyoacac, where sanofi-aventis already operates a facility. The plant will be designed to switch to pandemic vaccine manufacturing if a human influenza pandemic is declared and a pandemic influenza strain is identified by the World Health Organization (WHO)."

Reading comprehension huh?

Your factual discrepancy out of the way, let us address the main thrust. You seem to think that somehow SA has "expanded" their facilities already. Personally I rather doubt they've even got the foundation dry, but in your mind they got the facility up and running and cranking out Mexican flu within about a month, assuming that we could pretend the earliest Mexican flu case was contracted April 9.

This is so absurd it scarcely requires attention, but suffice it to say that you have scandalously unrealistic ideas on building construction and logistics.

Oh yes, obviously. ^_^
Nor that I made any bizarre claim about building construction, but never mind. It's just, again, another fine, but ultimately flawed and pathetic attempt at attacking me and let you spew your bile.

Above all, the document itself says the new facility would be up running within a few weeks.

That would make it operational EVEN BEFORE the barely reported disease in La Gloria (Perote Municipality, Veracruz State), in April 6 2009, by local health authorities.
The disease touched around half the population.

It's interesting to relate this to the pig farm, as recent discoveries show that the current mexican influenza would actually combine two swine flus, which is still deadly to us, but does not contain human nor bird flu strains.

http://www.planetthoughts.org/?pg=pt/Whole&qid=2870

Mexico accounted for 1.6% of the world pig stocks in 2007 - that's 15.5 million pigs. The largest hog producer in the world, Smithfield Foods owns two subsidiaries in Mexico, Norson and Granjas Carroll de México, which produced 467,000 and 950,000 hogs respectively in the 2008 fiscal year.

The second of these subsidiaries, Granjas Carroll de México, is based Perote in Vera Cruz state where the outbreak originated. Biosurveillance, which has produced this timeline of the outbreak, reported the following from local residents:

• Residents believed the outbreak had been caused by contamination from pig breeding farms located in the area. They believed that the farms, operated by Granjas Carroll, polluted the atmosphere and local water bodies, which in turn led to the disease outbreak. According to residents, the company denied responsibility for the outbreak and attributed the cases to "flu." However, a municipal health official stated that preliminary investigations indicated that the disease vector was a type of fly that reproduces in pig waste and that the outbreak was linked to the pig farms. It was unclear whether health officials had identified a suspected pathogen responsible for this outbreak.

Cue the massive manure lagoons due to such concentrated animal farming.
This form of massively industrialized agricultural business was initially funded by the Rockefeller Foundation more than half a century ago.

3. You claim the "expanded" facility is located in Ocoyoacac, and argue that this could be ground zero for the Mexican flu.

You are profoundly uninformed and attempting to spread that condition.

Press reports place CDC and WHO folks in the Mexican state of Veracruz, focusing on the town of La Gloria.

That is around 175km east of Mexico City, whereas your accusation features the claim that since Sanofi-Aventis has some sort of business space in the Ocoyoacac industrial park, 20km west-southwest from Mexico City, it is somehow "in the region where it all started. Oh... BIG. FUCKING. SURPRISE."

Yes, it is clearly in the region where it all started, because it is clearly somewhere in Mexico. Just like every other company there. Perhaps Ford, McDonald's, or some other such evil corporation was the true culprit!

Dumbass.

If you understand by ground zero that the flu could originate from the labs, then yes, I consider this a possibility, but not a necessity.

I largely pointed out the extreme odds about time and location, and considered this just too convenient.

The current swine influenza supposedly took all authorities by surprise. You get it everywhere, even from the CDC.
Yet, two months ago, Sanofi-aventis expand their facilities to increase the production of vaccines in the case of outbreak of a new infectious virulent virus, as precisely written down in their document.
The new lab was slated to become operational within a few weeks, which makes it operational before the localized disease outbreak in La Gloria. Howdy! That's good timing!

And when the swine flu pokes its head, cases are reported in a zone close to the labs, between the labs and the Smithfield Foods' intensive pig farm.

I'm saying that the idea they knew nothing is just not credible.
At the very least, their implantation there and the presence of heavily industrialized farming would point to them knowing that such methods are nice and fuzzy breeding grounds for diseases.
The extension of the facilities with one capable of producing vaccines for humans would point to something much less glamourous.

I don't hold much respect for those drug giants. What I suggest above would not surprise me in the slightest, considering the former cynical travesties and sacrifices of science and human values made on the altar of power and money.

4. "Sanofi-Aventis is the world leader flu vaccine producer," you say.

Then shut the frak up and let them do their job, instead of being so anti-capitalist that any corporation that has success must be considered evil and suspect.

What? What's going on in your fucking warped mind there?

I'm so anti-capitalist? Not only this is just erroneous, but completely laughable in light of my working specifications! :D
Anyway, what the hell does it have to do with this?
None.

##################

And yet, based on those and similar epistemological catastrophes, you then proudly finish with this conclusion:

Oh yeah. The conclusion? Well, while this started as a message to suggest, eventually, that there were reasons to consider this spread as non-accidental, the more I typed it, the more it became clear that the surprising and mysterious outbreak (hey, like in 1976!) appears to be neither.

Now, filthy Mexicanos, you die.

In other words, you have completely embarrassed yourself and don't even know it. You even provide motive to your imagined crime in the forms of racism and unbridled greed, without troubling yourself to provide evidence for either.

Oh yeah. Look, you were so nose-stuck into your ventilating campaign of accusations that you couldn't even imagine for a moment that maybe "filthy Mexicanos" had nothing serious about it at all.
Never mind, it didn't preclude the opportunity to add racism to the made up list of pathological name callings.

Why don't you add KKK while you're at it? :)

Basically, it is classic psychotic conspiracism, with a predictably leftist slant. This was a disgusting display on your part. Your intellectual vapidity and general mental buffoonery from that post is inexcusable.

You should apologize to the group. And before you complain that I've been mean to you for having absolutely no patience with your inexcusable behavior, please consider the fact that I've been kinder than such behavior deserves.

Good day.

I know how kind you are with me, and I thank you for that. But I'm tough. I can handle it if you want to let the mini-Hitler in you speak openly. ;p

[Mr. Oragahn]

No actually if he is immune all we would need is a sample of his blood to try to replicate his antibodies.

I was not serious.

LOL. Sometimes is just too hard to read you Mr O...

The damn Internetz. Problem of sarcasm is that if you say it, it loses strength, but if you don't identify it, people may miss it.

[PunkMaister]

I was not serious.

LOL. Sometimes is just too hard to read you Mr O...

But as has been known to happen before, Oragahn, you have emerged with the most astonishing claim.

In this case, you have declared the Mexican Flu to be a targeted attack against hispanics due to, among other things, live flu being "accidentally" part of a flu vaccine by Baxter.

Perhaps you were not informed of this, but:

(1) almost all vaccines are made from live samples of the offending virus, so even if your claims of live virus in vaccine were true it should not be a complete shock like getting "shot, stabbed and put on fire the same day you'd win million of dollars on the lottery."

(2) You got your information from psycho-lefty conspiracy nut websites like OpEdNews, which your post is a fair summary of, even down to some phrasings.

Certainly the main idea is there, wherein the psycho lefty loons claim that it was a vaccine that was sent out that was destined to go into people that had live virus in it. That is a lie. The Toronto Sun article, which you even had the gall to link to, makes it obvious that this was not a vaccine, but a virus sample (see #1!) sent to a research company.

In short, you need to refrain from reading . . . or learn how to identify . . . poor news sources written by conspiracist lefties.

In another case altogether, you find a press release from March 9 showing that Sanofi-Aventis had signed the paperwork to build a brand new vaccine manufacturing facility in Mexico, with construction starting "within a few weeks".

Frankly, I consider your response an affront to reason. Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. Reading comprehension:

But the very short document does makes mention of a "virulent virus, newly infectious for humans, and for which there is no preexisting immunity."

That's because you're quoting a background section describing what pandemic influenza is.

You act like it's some evil foreshadowing, when in fact they're simply describing what we've seen from pandemic influenza time and again.

If I say that tomorrow morning, somewhere in the east, a fireball will be visible from your location . . . is that a threat or is it sunrise?

2. Basic ignorance:

The document is dated March 9, 2009. So it is just pure fluke that nearly two months prior to the rise of the new A/H1N1, which took the world off guard, these drug giants decided to expand their facilities near Mexico?

First, they are not expanding their facilities . . . the article is clear that it is a new build. The existing facilities in the region are Mexican federal facilities.

Your factual discrepancy out of the way, let us address the main thrust. You seem to think that somehow SA has "expanded" their facilities already. Personally I rather doubt they've even got the foundation dry, but in your mind they got the facility up and running and cranking out Mexican flu within about a month, assuming that we could pretend the earliest Mexican flu case was contracted April 9.

This is so absurd it scarcely requires attention, but suffice it to say that you have scandalously unrealistic ideas on building construction and logistics.

3. You claim the "expanded" facility is located in Ocoyoacac, and argue that this could be ground zero for the Mexican flu.

You are profoundly uninformed and attempting to spread that condition.

Press reports place CDC and WHO folks in the Mexican state of Veracruz, focusing on the town of La Gloria.

That is around 175km east of Mexico City, whereas your accusation features the claim that since Sanofi-Aventis has some sort of business space in the Ocoyoacac industrial park, 20km west-southwest from Mexico City, it is somehow "in the region where it all started. Oh... BIG. FUCKING. SURPRISE."

Yes, it is clearly in the region where it all started, because it is clearly somewhere in Mexico. Just like every other company there. Perhaps Ford, McDonald's, or some other such evil corporation was the true culprit!

Dumbass.

4. "Sanofi-Aventis is the world leader flu vaccine producer," you say.

Then shut the frak up and let them do their job, instead of being so anti-capitalist that any corporation that has success must be considered evil and suspect.

##################

And yet, based on those and similar epistemological catastrophes, you then proudly finish with this conclusion:

Oh yeah. The conclusion? Well, while this started as a message to suggest, eventually, that there were reasons to consider this spread as non-accidental, the more I typed it, the more it became clear that the surprising and mysterious outbreak (hey, like in 1976!) appears to be neither.

Now, filthy Mexicanos, you die.

In other words, you have completely embarrassed yourself and don't even know it. You even provide motive to your imagined crime in the forms of racism and unbridled greed, without troubling yourself to provide evidence for either.

Basically, it is classic psychotic conspiracism, with a predictably leftist slant. This was a disgusting display on your part. Your intellectual vapidity and general mental buffoonery from that post is inexcusable.

You should apologize to the group. And before you complain that I've been mean to you for having absolutely no patience with your inexcusable behavior, please consider the fact that I've been kinder than such behavior deserves.

Good day.

As I said Mr O. is very hard to read, sometimes he comes out as hardcore leftist/socialist and others it seems to be quite the opposite...[/quote][/quote]

[Mr. Oragahn]

PunkM, you seem to have issues with post edition, no? :)
May I suggest either adding a quote tag at the beginning of your older post, or removing the extra final two quote tags in your last post, and delete the other post?

[PunkMaister]

PunkM, you seem to have issues with post edition, no? :)
May I suggest either adding a quote tag at the beginning of your older post, or removing the extra final two quote tags in your last post, and delete the other post?

LOL I tried but the server is not allowing me as the post has already been replied too. Sorry :(

[2046]

Oragahn:

Your reply continues your pattern.

1. You defend the use of leftist conspiracy loon websites as valid information sources on the grounds that they link to mainstream sites, while failing to recognize that the mainstream sites do not reflect the unsupported claims the conspiracists are making in any way, shape, or form, and specifically contradict the facts and opinions of the conspiracists.

2. You defend the claim that it was Baxter's vaccine intended for use being shipped and not virus material en route to a research lab based on Google's translation of Czech websites, which also features such statements as "we are back to putting." Clearly they were golfing, no?

Note that this also continues the conspiracist tradition of pointing toward the earliest available news as the most valid, though this is seldom if ever the case.

3. You defend your own conspiracist lunacy on the grounds that conspiracies exist. The fact that conspiracies occur is true.

However, the attempts of you and like-minded nuts to claim super-vast conspiracies with no evidence whatsoever is the problem. Guy Fawkes confessed, and there was written evidence. There is plenty of evidence of what happened prior to 9/11. And so on.

And of course, real conspiracies are boring to conspiracist loons. An example is that 9/11 'Truth'ers reject the small conspiracy of Atta and friends in favor of a huge super-conspiracy featuring the President, his staff, members of the military, Bin Laden, demolitions team members, and hundreds and thousands of others in many countries, including experts in numerous fields who have slammed the conspiracy nut claims. Hell, I'm sure by posting this I am actually in on the conspiracy, and may even be the shadow operative running the show. (Next up, the Illuminati.)

What goes wrong in the mind of a conspiracist nutjob such as yourself is that at no point does reason interfere with the quest for the conspiracy. The more complicated and convoluted, the better, because there is always a mystery to solve, and the conspiracist feels that much more self-important. And the appeal to ignorance always works because, after all, it's virtually miraculous that you have learned of the conspirators' plots at all, what with conspirators being so secretive all the time.

4. You correctly note that Sonofi-Aventis has a facility of some kind in Mexico, yet you continue to insist that the brand new facility from the press release was built within about a month. As you put it, the press release "says the new facility would be up running within a few weeks."

Quoting from the press release with my own emphasis:

Sanofi pasteur is planning to start construction of the new vaccine manufacturing facility within a few weeks. Upon completion within four years, the facility will have a yearly capacity of up to 25 million doses of seasonal influenza vaccine.

Most of the time, conspiracy loons at least try to make their claims plausible so as to dupe other people. Since you have decided Sanofi-Aventis must be responsible for the Mexican flu, why not try to prove that the existing facility is an evil lab, or even a way station for flu developed elsewhere (it's got European and Asian flu traces! Ooooohhhh!) rather than lie about a 100-million Euro facility that can't possibly exist yet?

Just sayin'.

5. You could not even understand that when I used the term racism, I was referring to one of your manufactured motives for Sanofi-Aventis, not saying you were racist.

How can someone with such poor reading comprehension possibly believe he can read between the lines to divine the truth, when he cannot read the lines as written with any accuracy to begin with?

6. You attempt to defend your leftist silliness by complaining about my even bringing up left vs. right is lame. Had you not been spouting leftist garbage from psycho leftist conspiracy nut websites, no comment would have been made. It is the same reason I commented on your conspiracist nuttery.

Your anti-capitalist theory that a big company must be evil and thus responsible for the very thing it makes a product to take care of is also leftist garbage, though I'll grant that when you really get deep into conspiracy BS the insane left and insane right end up merging into an orgy of pure, apolitical insanity.

############

In short, you embarrassed yourself, and while your reply wasn't quite as lunatic-fringe as you could have taken it, you did still manage to embarrass yourself further by trying to defend your more absurd ideas with still-more absurdity.

Anyway, my much-deserved airstrike and this response to wide-missing AA is complete, so further reply is unnecessary. You may now continue to make a fool of yourself at your convenience.

[l33telboi]

No, the swine flue is not going to be the end of the world. And frankly, it wouldn't even necessarily be completely bad if the thing wiped out a few million people, or even a few hundred million people.

I'm always somewhat amused by the hysterical paranoia surrounding these things though. I made a bet with a guy at work (a typical doomsayer) as a result. There was a suspected case of swine flu in Finland and I giggled at the notion, he on the other hand couldn't even comprehend the notion that it was anything but. As it turns out it wasn't the swine flu (real shocker) and I won the bet.

[Mr. Oragahn]

No, the swine flue is not going to be the end of the world. And frankly, it wouldn't even necessarily be completely bad if the thing wiped out a few million people, or even a few hundred million people.

Cynicism is a fine thing, until it becomes the prime motor of your opinions regarding the world and ethics.
What makes you think there's something good in having a few million people dying?
You feel this planet is spammed with homo sapiens?

I'm always somewhat amused by the hysterical paranoia surrounding these things though. I made a bet with a guy at work (a typical doomsayer) as a result. There was a suspected case of swine flu in Finland and I giggled at the notion, he on the other hand couldn't even comprehend the notion that it was anything but. As it turns out it wasn't the swine flu (real shocker) and I won the bet.

It's clearly blown out of proportions. What could happen be that this swine flu would have far less confirmed deaths than traditional seasonal human flues.