Starfleet Jedi

So, we're coming up on the 100th day of the Obama Presidency, and all the major news outlets are abuzz. Time to take the temperature here.

To recap: he passed a major stimulus and infrastructure spending bill, undid the Bush ban on embryonic stem cell research, started the process of closing Guantanamo, approved 17,000 new troops for Afghanistan, made a major European trip, made a major South American trip, visited a mosque, got another 1 trillion for the World Bank out of the G20 (though no additional stimulus commitments) dealth nicely with a pirate standoff, added a lot to the Federal deficit, and recently released some pretty damning memos from the previous administration.

Your thoughts/analyses/partisan rants? What has he done well, what do you think could have been done better, what do you most hope to see in the coming months/years?

Overall, I'm pretty pleased. It's wonderful to see diplomacy back in vogue in Washington. After all, when dealing with such thorny geopolitical issues as we have, its best to use all the tools we have available, and I'm damn tired of this childish, video-game "with us or against us" garbage. Diplomacy to siphon off any moderates, conciliatory attitude and foreign aid to deflate claims of "American imperialism" and various other epithets, and swift, precise military action to defeat those we can't otherwise sway. This is smart power, and I'm glad its back. I've always maintained we need more infrastructure expenditures in this country, and now we're finally getting them. I'm pleased by the decision to release the torture memos, though I'm not pleased by Obama pussyfooting around the issue of investigations into possible prosecutions for those who violated both domestic and international laws prohibiting torture. Of course it would be divisive and unpopular, but I'd rather Obama do the right thing than the popular thing. This is not about whether or not it worked, this is about the fact that it is illegal. I'm resigned to the fact that I probably won't get my way with this one, though. I'm also concerned over renewed interest in the assault weapons ban, mainly because Democrats have never been able to conclusively define "assault weapon." The original Brady Bill went after things like folding stocks and flash suppressors, basically targeting anything that "looked scary." And hi-cap magazines, for some reason. Of course, the gun lobby blew a hole in that by getting language inserted which only bans hi-cap mags made after the ban was enacted, and manufacturers produced millions of them in the months before the ban went into effect. Regardless, there doesn't appear to be much Congressional support for a renewed ban. His promise of bipartisanship? I never really had high hopes for that. Whenever a party gets beaten this badly they're pretty much reduced to token opposition. Of course I'm concerned about the ever-increasing Federal deficit, and he's looking for ways to trim up various Federal programs to try and recoup the loss. "100 million here, 100 million there," so he said. 100 million is a drop in the bucket, frankly. We're going to be servicing this debt for some time. But nevertheless, I'm confident in Obama, as are most Americans, so the polls say. Of course, he now has command of the problem, so I don't want to hear anymore "we inherited it." Yes, you did. But it's yours now.

Fuck off the cult of Barack "24" Obama.
He's going to be more of the same prior to the 9/11 induced and totally assumed super-violence of Bush.
It's very easy to appear as the saviour after such crap.
His stance on the financial sector tells a totally different story though.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Fuck off the cult of Barack "24" Obama.
He's going to be more of the same prior to the 9/11 induced and totally assumed super-violence of Bush.
It's very easy to appear as the saviour after such crap.
His stance on the financial sector tells a totally different story though.

But I do not understand Mr O he is after all an ardent liberal that hates the U.S probably more than you ever will and will do everything in his power to destroy us while he is in office. To you that should be a dream come true...

I think it's still a little early to pass judgment. I suppose that puts me with Mr. Oragahn in substance, but I'm feeling decidedly more optimistic about Barack Obama.

Some things - such as stating that we shouldn't expect to see prosecutions result from the Bush torture policies - I'm not so happy with. The precedent of "only following orders" is a problematic one, as we saw in the original Nuremburg war crimes trials. There are also many things that need fixing which he has not fixed.

However, there are plenty of things that I like so far, such as his ready embrace of science. Even if there had been no other policy changes visible in action yet, that policy change alone would give me cause for optimism. The War on Science by the executive branch is at long last over, and now we have a president who understands and believes in the empirical method. Science may drive policy, instead of the other way around!

With all due respect Barry Saetoro only believes whatever drives him up the polls at the moment and that's it. It's the same obsession Clinton had magnified times 100. I suppose you guys love the Gestapo like security force he is building around himself as well. After all what better way to get of rid of pesky Americans than by creating such a force and then take all opposition into concentration camps that already set all over the nation by FEMA (The locations were originally intended as emergency relief and distribution centers but all that is changed now). And Science without any kind of moral compass is as dangerous as any religion unchecked on the face of the Earth.

Okaaaaay....I don't know what to say about that.
-Mike

Cocytus wrote:To recap: he passed a major stimulus and infrastructure spending bill, undid the Bush ban on embryonic stem cell research, started the process of closing Guantanamo, approved 17,000 new troops for Afghanistan, made a major European trip, made a major South American trip, visited a mosque, got another 1 trillion for the World Bank out of the G20 (though no additional stimulus commitments) dealth nicely with a pirate standoff, added a lot to the Federal deficit, and recently released some pretty damning memos from the previous administration.

1.Passed a pork laden bill with little to no stimilus and wants to add to it already. I hardly would consider that praise worthy.
2. That ultimatly depends on your view of Embryonic research of course. I happened to be against it but I am assuming your for it.
3.Yet doesn't appear to have an idea on where to store them when he does. Once again of course that is more of a right/left divide over if it's good or not to close it.
4.I wasn't aware making trips to other countries was significant in and of itself and I thought we were the primary donators to the trillion but I could be mistaken.
5.Yes I do have to give him credit, he allowed the armed forces to actually do it's job. If only he'd take as similar rout with the rest of the nation :)
6.Ah the memos which includes such horror inducing torture as putting a man in with a furry little caterpillar. In my opinion releasing our methods of breaking enemy combatents as well as trying to stir up trouble at home is a pretty dirty handed bit of manuvering. Such matters, if one feels against it so strongly, should be dealt with behidn closed doors to keep things tidy.

In general the first 100 days has more or less shown the man to be a hard left partizan who apparently has trouble stringing togather his thoughts when he is off teleprompter. In short Jimmy Carter's long held position is in dire jeporady to be surpassed.

PunkMaister wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Fuck off the cult of Barack "24" Obama.
He's going to be more of the same prior to the 9/11 induced and totally assumed super-violence of Bush.
It's very easy to appear as the saviour after such crap.
His stance on the financial sector tells a totally different story though.

But I do not understand Mr O he is after all an ardent liberal that hates the U.S probably more than you ever will and will do everything in his power to destroy us while he is in office. To you that should be a dream come true...

What what what? Did I ever imply that I hate the US?
I hate the government, mine and pretty much the cash guys behind them.
I have no reason to hate the people.

Obama's shown that he is willing to talk to "old enemies", and to try to be more open, and actually seems interested in opening dialog with people whom the US declared "persona non grata" some time ago.
I mean, what could be so bad about talking to Cuba?
The commercial embargo sure has shown itself to be utterly inefficient anyways in "getting rid of the commies".
The standofish attitude of the Bush era has shown itself incapable of dealing with Kim Jong-Il, so perhaps a more open approach could work there as well.

The stimulus package...
A lot of people are against it, yet it seems sorely needed due to an economy left in shambles after the inefficiency of the previous leaders, Republicans and Democrats alike.
What, you guys would prefer he left evrything as is, and pray for the economy to improve miraculously?

His stance on the war in the Middle-East is also nice: We need to leave, but we can only leave when we're sure we haven't gone there for nothing.
Now that we destabilized the area with our attacks, we need to help stabilize it before we leave.

And, Punkmaister, what exactly has Obama done to destroy the country?
We see you lay accusations, but we've yet to see any evidence of these charges...
Like, where are those concentration camps?
Who did he sent there that were part of the opposition?
According to this:

"A law passed by the government in 1936 gave the Gestapo carte blanche to operate without judicial oversight. The Gestapo was specifically exempted from responsibility to administrative courts, where citizens normally could sue the state to conform to laws."

Funny, but this reminds me more of the Patriot act, passed by the Bush administration, not Obama...
So, where is this Gestapo of Obama's?

Again, we see you sling wild accusations, make very shoddy comparisons, without a shred of argumentation or evidence...
Typical...

I think PunkMaister might be referring to the "Civilian Security Force, as well-funded as the US military" Obama proposed a while back. Georgia Congessman Paul Broun interpreted this to mean he was going to introduce the Gestapo. What he actually proposed was an increase in the size of AmeriCorps, the Peace Corps, and the USA Freedom Corps. Broun admitted his words "might sound a little crazy and offbase." Ya don't say?

sonofccn wrote:

Cocytus wrote:To recap: he passed a major stimulus and infrastructure spending bill, undid the Bush ban on embryonic stem cell research, started the process of closing Guantanamo, approved 17,000 new troops for Afghanistan, made a major European trip, made a major South American trip, visited a mosque, got another 1 trillion for the World Bank out of the G20 (though no additional stimulus commitments) dealth nicely with a pirate standoff, added a lot to the Federal deficit, and recently released some pretty damning memos from the previous administration.

1.Passed a pork laden bill with little to no stimilus and wants to add to it already. I hardly would consider that praise worthy.
2. That ultimatly depends on your view of Embryonic research of course. I happened to be against it but I am assuming your for it.
3.Yet doesn't appear to have an idea on where to store them when he does. Once again of course that is more of a right/left divide over if it's good or not to close it.
4.I wasn't aware making trips to other countries was significant in and of itself and I thought we were the primary donators to the trillion but I could be mistaken.
5.Yes I do have to give him credit, he allowed the armed forces to actually do it's job. If only he'd take as similar rout with the rest of the nation :)
6.Ah the memos which includes such horror inducing torture as putting a man in with a furry little caterpillar. In my opinion releasing our methods of breaking enemy combatents as well as trying to stir up trouble at home is a pretty dirty handed bit of manuvering. Such matters, if one feels against it so strongly, should be dealt with behidn closed doors to keep things tidy.

In general the first 100 days has more or less shown the man to be a hard left partizan who apparently has trouble stringing togather his thoughts when he is off teleprompter. In short Jimmy Carter's long held position is in dire jeporady to be surpassed.

1. You and I will simply have to disagree on the pork, SonofCCN. I think more infrastructure, more roads, more public transportation, more trains, etc. are great things. They will help to make our workforce more mobile, more able to pursue the jobs they need (and hopefully in the future prevent things like the Minnesota bridge collapse, the result of a faulty gusset plate) The fact is, much of the infrastructure in this country is sadly outdated and in desperate need of rebuilding. More infrastructure would mean less gridlock in major cities, (saving time, money and fuel). Increases in roads and public transportation would enable people to get to and from work at greater speed, and spur further development around major cities. Now, here I must admit to my own prejudice. You may ask "what's in it for rural areas" and I honestly don't know. I'm a big city guy, and by dint of that, many would consider me elitist.

1. I am for embryonic research. But Obama has already limited Federal funding to research on embryos which would otherwise be thrown away.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01880.html
That seems like a good compromise to me. What about you?

3. They may have to be sent to US prisons. He'll have to work to get other countries to take them. Those against whom there is no evidence will simply have to be released. Many people sent to Guantanamo were simply "swept up." Only 3 have ever been convicted, the vast majority released. Now while I am in favor of closing the place, a compromise that keeps it open and improves conditions would be acceptable.

4. In and of itself, it isn't. I was simply recounting the major events that passed. I believe I included his adding considerably to the Federal deficit. The list wasn't meant to be opinionated. That was the paragraph below it. And we probably are the biggest donors. We give more foreign aid than any other nation. But only by virtue of having the largest GDP. As a percentage of GDP, we give the least. How goeth that parable of Christ's about the rich man and the poor old woman? Of course, we devote more to our defense budget than the next 12 countries put together. So one might say we're providing defense to the world free of charge, which one could count as foreign aid.

5. Thanks for giving him credit. Even Bernard Goldberd said "we can't keep going out of our way to find fault with everything he does."

6. I'm more concerned with the waterboarding than with the caterpillar. A tactic used by the Gestapo and its Japanese counterpart the Kempeitai during WWII, a technique for which we prosecuted Japanese camp officers, has categorically no place in the US roster of interrogation methods. We are better than that. And until anyone on this board has undergone the procedure themselves, I will continue to trust the word of Daniel Levin, who underwent it and concluded it was torture. And beyond merely the questions of legality is the question of whether these methods are any more effective in securing vital intelligence.

This man thinks they aren't, and he got us al Zarqawi.
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

Cocytus wrote:You and I will simply have to disagree on the pork, SonofCCN. I think more infrastructure, more roads, more public transportation, more trains, etc. are great things.

While we do disagree on this, in my opinion it never was a lack of funding for infrastructure that was the problem but politicans who misused the funds, I was refering to funding for Acorn and such then the oft mentioned public works. I would consider the additionally money to infastructure money ill spent but I wouldn't call it pork.

They may have to be sent to US prisons. He'll have to work to get other countries to take them. Those against whom there is no evidence will simply have to be released. Many people sent to Guantanamo were simply "swept up." Only 3 have ever been convicted, the vast majority released. Now while I am in favor of closing the place, a compromise that keeps it open and improves conditions would be acceptable.

The problem is no country wants them. The other problem is this is war and obtaining US level amounts of evidence simply can not occur on the regular basis.

In and of itself, it isn't. I was simply recounting the major events that passed. I believe I included his adding considerably to the Federal deficit. The list wasn't meant to be opinionated. That was the paragraph below it. And we probably are the biggest donors. We give more foreign aid than any other nation. But only by virtue of having the largest GDP. As a percentage of GDP, we give the least. How goeth that parable of Christ's about the rich man and the poor old woman? Of course, we devote more to our defense budget than the next 12 countries put together. So one might say we're providing defense to the world free of charge, which one could count as foreign aid.

Sorry my mistake you listed it among what I thought was simply a list of his accomplishments. Any how the actual accomplishes of his tours appear to be of limited value of equal to lesser what Bush managed to accomplish. Which isn't surprising, Europeans are Europeans and look after their own interests first as it should be.

I'm more concerned with the waterboarding than with the caterpillar. A tactic used by the Gestapo and its Japanese counterpart the Kempeitai during WWII, a technique for which we prosecuted Japanese camp officers, has categorically no place in the US roster of interrogation methods. We are better than that. And until anyone on this board has undergone the procedure themselves, I will continue to trust the word of Daniel Levin, who underwent it and concluded it was torture.

Water boarding is pretty tame and the subject suffers no long term damage. Now it is of course quiet unpleasent but Navy Seals have been forced to endure it without complaint so they don't appear to think it's torture. I am unaware of the method employed by the Gestapo or the Kempeitai through I know the other methods they exercised were a million times worse then what we perform. So perhapses their methods were crueler or were simply lumped in with the rest of their barbaric methods. In the end when faced with thousands or millions dead in some city or a soggy terrorist I just can't feel sorry for the guy.

And beyond merely the questions of legality is the question of whether these methods are any more effective in securing vital intelligence.

As far as I know the two times it was employed it broke the combatent in question.

Praeothmin wrote:Obama's shown that he is willing to talk to "old enemies", and to try to be more open, and actually seems interested in opening dialog with people whom the US declared "persona non grata" some time ago.
I mean, what could be so bad about talking to Cuba?
The commercial embargo sure has shown itself to be utterly inefficient anyways in "getting rid of the commies".

This is just fancy talks. At best, these illegal immigrants will be welcome to become cannon fodder thousands of kilometers away before they truly become full American citizens, with enough income or capital to live decently... if that's still possible.

And there's of course the whole Amero rising its ugly head. The more people in, the greater the party, so that would easily explain the soft voice and snake charming flute.

We've seen that in Europe, believe me, and I can tell you it fucking sucks big times. There's no democracy. People were either ignored when asked and replied no, or were not even asked what they thought about the European Constitution.

Yes, a goddamn CONSTITUTION. You know that means, in full theory, that you have a state there. A superstate, pardon.

Hey, just like the North American Union guys: it's done in your back and you won't even feel it until your anus bleeds, but by then it will be too late.

The standofish attitude of the Bush era has shown itself incapable of dealing with Kim Jong-Il, so perhaps a more open approach could work there as well.

But is there anything to do anymore now? He has his weapons, he's not willing to use them on people, but just making demos.

The stimulus package...
A lot of people are against it, yet it seems sorely needed due to an economy left in shambles after the inefficiency of the previous leaders, Republicans and Democrats alike.
What, you guys would prefer he left evrything as is, and pray for the economy to improve miraculously?

How can I put it in simple terms?

It's bullshit. There's that crisis, which is no accident by any fucking means, there's that Obama guy placed and financed by the guys behind this crisis, there's the people he put in his government's financial arm who are the culprits (I mean, guys, just check the names for God sake), and he's selling you this formidable recovery plan to save you with your own money, and probably with lots of money borrowed, again (which would more or less nullify the possibility to refuse banks to immediately repay the bailouts, and even perhaps grow the debt even more), and he's the saviour?

Woop-tee-doo!
He's just pulling people back into the same old dance, until the next engineered bubble.

His stance on the war in the Middle-East is also nice: We need to leave, but we can only leave when we're sure we haven't gone there for nothing.
Now that we destabilized the area with our attacks, we need to help stabilize it before we leave.

His stance is total bullshit. The only thing that keeps him from attacking full front is because the balance of power and decision making regarding Middle East is an affair of three groups having different views on the road to take, and some of them know that sending more people to war in Afghanistan and Pakistan could cripple the USA, unless more people were recruited (uh-oh, wait).
And that's not talking about the fact that the US army is largely operating side by side with Blackwater guys and other mercenaries, paid with an obscure fraction of the US' whole budget.

Funny, but this reminds me more of the Patriot act, passed by the Bush administration, not Obama...
So, where is this Gestapo of Obama's?

Did Obama even attempt to remove the Patriot Act and the god awful numerous other Acts that mess up liberties?

sonofccn wrote:

I'm more concerned with the waterboarding than with the caterpillar. A tactic used by the Gestapo and its Japanese counterpart the Kempeitai during WWII, a technique for which we prosecuted Japanese camp officers, has categorically no place in the US roster of interrogation methods. We are better than that. And until anyone on this board has undergone the procedure themselves, I will continue to trust the word of Daniel Levin, who underwent it and concluded it was torture.

Water boarding is pretty tame and the subject suffers no long term damage. Now it is of course quiet unpleasent but Navy Seals have been forced to endure it without complaint so they don't appear to think it's torture. I am unaware of the method employed by the Gestapo or the Kempeitai through I know the other methods they exercised were a million times worse then what we perform. So perhapses their methods were crueler or were simply lumped in with the rest of their barbaric methods. In the end when faced with thousands or millions dead in some city or a soggy terrorist I just can't feel sorry for the guy.

You misunderstand. It's not that I feel sorry for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. He's a scumbag. But he was waterboarded 183 times in a month, according to the Bradbury memo. I don't really consider than an indicator of its effectiveness. If you've got a ticking-clock, a month is an eternity.

My issue with this goes beyond merely the fact that its legality is dubious, or that it lends credence to the propaganda of terrorist leaders. Part of it has to do with the fact the Bush Administration was so secretive about it. They didn't trust the people, didn't consider us privy to information which by law belongs to us, didn't think we could handle it. If they had told us what they were doing, I might feel better about it. WE, not the President, we are the highest authority in this country. I want to know everything they do, because it's my right to know, and my duty, in case they are doing something which might be illegal. I personally don't think the government should do anything behind closed doors.

Now Obama has claimed "sovereign immunity" for DOJ to protect it from a lawsuit over warrantless wiretapping. Here my appreciation for Obama takes a hard hit. Don't throw us Gitmo's closure as a token bone and then pull a stunt like this. I'm happy with much of what he's done, that is decidedly NOT included.

You can weigh Obama's standards of democracy against those of Bush here, and observe that... there's no change.

It will take time but people will get it, sooner or later, that it's just a skin job.

Cocytus wrote:It's not that I feel sorry for the likes of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. He's a scumbag. But he was waterboarded 183 times in a month, according to the Bradbury memo.

I'm surprised he hasn't grown gills yet.