Global Warming, CO2...

For any and all other discussion, i.e., not relating to Star Wars or Star Trek or standards of evidence. A reminder: Don't spam, don't flame, and stay reasonable.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Global Warming, CO2...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:25 pm

Roondar wrote:This is not really true. We don't have to use a big-screen TV, a tumble drier, an airconditioning unit or even a car. We don't need to eat meat every day or drive to the grocery store when it's a five minute walk. We don't need to buy crap that we use once and then fills up our house until we throw it away. We don't need to leave the TV (or PC or lightbulb or <random appliance>) on for hours while we're not using it. We want (or choose) to. Not that this is necesarilly wrong (or evil), but lets not pretend we need half of the stuff I named. We can live differently. But we don't really want to. And why would we? We're in an age of plenty and this is just the result of it.

And no, I'm not saying that I am oh so different there. But I can point out that we are choosing to live as we want for a large part (which, considering we have the resources to do so is to be expected). There's no law that says I need a newer, bigger TV every two years, yet there are plenty of people who buy one every two years just the same.
This lifestyle is driven by cultural, economical and political forces that don't even try to tame down all this world of overconsumption.
Car manufacturers have never made a true effort to bring out clean-energy model after model.
It's not like cars are full of things that roll, turn and slide that could be used to generate electricity more than most cars do now.
Political powers have not encouraged the use of alternative sources of fuel, regardless of the likely fact that many people would like to get free of the oil industry as much as possible, and be able to exploit hemp in all the possible ways it can be exploited for good, and also helped to exploit varieties of crops to produce alcohol for alcohol-engines, instead of running agriculture with monocultures.
The same governmental powers could also help and encourage farmers and nearby inhabitants to deal at a local scale, instead of moving tons of tasteless and chemically grown food across the globe.

Hell, there's a chocolate tablet maker that used to sell its products in paper. It has now decided to use plastic wraping. Does that make any sense to you in such times?
Look, I don't see us as the pundits here. All I see is that many governments over the planet are pushing the lobbyists' agendas and doing them favour.
I don't see taxes helping the environment at all, for the simple reason that unless a tax is blunt and chocking, people digest the tax. See fuel prices. People didn't drive less when prices rose, until the point the price really became stupidly way too high and journals were spreading panic.

Over the last 40 50 years, inflation has raised in most western countries (Japan is an exception): everything is more expensive, yet finding a job has constantly gotten harder, and salaries weren't getting any better.

I'm going to cheat the goverment as much as I can, because there's no fucking way I'm going to accept being taxed even more, like the billions of incomes on that planet to be sacrificed on the altar of pseudo ecological awareness.
Recycling (and downcycling) is a good thing. We'd be out of some materials altogether by now if we didn't recycle. Heating your house using the same heat that would otherwise be pumped into the local water supply and accomplish nothing except some warmer fish is likewise, a good idea.
And yes, it costs money to recycle. The real question is: does it pay off. I'm leaning towards 'yes' so far.
I'm not against recycling, and that's a thing I gladly pay for when it works -well, when the CEO of the private company that picks the used bottles, carboard boxes and papers doesn't disappear after stealing the cash!- but my problem is the all ecology that permeates through pretty much anything, any topic on TV, and so on, including the "build your house green".
My gripe is that it's totally forced, arguing that we have to change the insulating materials, use filters, bla bla, and this costs money. And money happens to run out.
Plus recycling is not as perfect or even efficient as generally thought 1), and the vast majority of people surely don't know what happens to the plastics they throw.
The effects of EM radiation on the body have been researched over and over and over and over again. There is still no evidence it's bad for you. There is plenty of evidence about what it doesn't cause though. In fact, the latest I heard was the study where they proved that people who had 'trouble' with EM fields (such as headaches, dizzyness, nausea and the like) miraculously didn't have any such complaints at all if they where unaware there was an EM source. Even more fun, if they thought there was an EM source (a scientist pushes an unwired button and claims there is now plenty EM radiation while there is none) they got their symptoms back.
There has been no serious study, as far as I know, about the radiations emitted by those new CFL lightbulbs, and that's a pity considering that old style incandescent lightbulbs are forcedly phased out.
See? That's it, again. it's very easy to measure the volt per centimeter intensity. Levels are high close to those ecofriendly bulbs, yet what kind of information do we have about them and the safety of using them?
All I know is that when I used one and switched it on, it fucked up my radio, and that lamp is like 40-50 cm away from my head. I'm not taking any risks, that's all.
And you certainly do not want those lightbulbs to break. That article highlights the contradictions, like those of Greenpeace and Environmental Defense, both warning about the many terrible dangers of mercury and yet support CFL bulbs like there's no tomorrow.

More stuff about mercury.

A broken CFL is extremely dangerous.
Yet how many people are aware of that? How many people will be fully informed of the painful and expensive procedure to apply if one of these poisonous bulbs breaks?
The EPA's page on CFLs is interesting:
http://www.epa.gov/osw/hazard/wastetype ... faqs.htm#4
Better, even:
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm#flourescent
Spills, disposal and cleanup

Humans use mercury in a variety of manufacturing processes and products such as thermometers and fluorescent bulbs. If you improperly dispose of products with mercury in them, they may break and release mercury vapors which are harmful to human and ecological health.
  • Dispose of used mercury-containing items properly.
  • Clean up mercury spills properly and report them to the proper authorities when necessary.
[...]

Spills
What Never to Do with a Mercury Spill
  • Never use a vacuum cleaner to clean up mercury (but see the "What to Do if a Fluorescent Light Bulb Breaks" section below for more specific instructions about vacuuming broken fluorescent light bulbs). The vacuum will put mercury into the air and increase exposure.
  • Never use a broom to clean up mercury. It will break the mercury into smaller droplets and spread them.
  • Never pour mercury down a drain. It may lodge in the plumbing and cause future problems during plumbing repairs. If discharged, it can cause pollution of the septic tank or sewage treatment plant.
  • Never wash clothing or other items that have come in direct contact with mercury in a washing machine, because mercury may contaminate the machine and/or pollute sewage. Clothing that has come into direct contact with mercury should be discarded. By "direct contact," we mean that mercury was (or has been) spilled directly on the clothing. For example:
    • if you broke a mercury thermometer and some of elemental mercury beads came in contact with your clothing, or
    • if you broke a compact fluorescent bulb (CFL) so that broken glass and other material from the bulb, including mercury-containing powder, came into contact with your clothing.
    You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have been exposed to the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, like the clothing you happened to be wearing when you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long as that clothing has not come into direct contact with the materials from the broken bulb.
  • Never walk around if your shoes might be contaminated with mercury. Contaminated clothing can also spread mercury around.
I guess you never expected the procedure to be such a hassle, right?
Oh but wait, it's not finished.
What to Do if a Fluorescent or Other Mercury-Containing Light Bulb Breaks

[...]
Before Clean-up: Air Out the Room
  • Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk through the breakage area on their way out.
  • Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
  • Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.
Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
  • Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
  • Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
  • Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
  • Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.
Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
  • Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
  • Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
  • If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
  • Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
Clean-up Steps for Clothing, Bedding and Other Soft Materials
  • If clothing or bedding materials come in direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from inside the bulb that may stick to the fabric, the clothing or bedding should be thrown away. Do not wash such clothing or bedding because mercury fragments in the clothing may contaminate the machine and/or pollute sewage.
  • You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have been exposed to the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, such as the clothing you are wearing when you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long as that clothing has not come into direct contact with the materials from the broken bulb.
  • If shoes come into direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from the bulb, wipe them off with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place the towels or wipes in a glass jar or plastic bag for disposal.
Disposal of Clean-up Materials
  • Immediately place all clean-up materials outdoors in a trash container or protected area for the next normal trash pickup.
  • Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing clean-up materials.
  • Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states do not allow such trash disposal. Instead, they require that broken and unbroken mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.
Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Air Out the Room During and After Vacuuming
  • The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window before vacuuming.
  • Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.
Okay, so, a CFL either contains an average of 5 ml of mercury, or between 8 and 14 ml, and when one breaks, you have to open all the windows and restrict access to the room for 15 minutes.
Any tissue coming into contact with the broken glass or mercury-containing powder has to be thrown away. Only that.
I suppose they don't sell Hazmat gear along those CFLs.

Things aren't any better with thermometers, but I admit never checking out thermometers' packaging to see if there's any warning. Surely, there should be some.
Why not on CFLs, while they're clearly presented as dangerous in case of break?

I have one of those expensive lightbulbs right under my nose. It's made by Philips. It's called an "Energy saver".
No message about mercury. No number to call. I flip the package, check the back and read the fluff that comes in several languages. Again, nothing about mercury, no number to call, no warning about what to do if such the CFL breaks.

Oh, they forgot about it? Try, at best, "they don't give a shit".

Hell, I just realized, thanks to the EPA website's sidebar on the page I linked to, that some neon tubes are sometimes built with mercury added into the tube along the necessary noble gas. Same problems ensue if one of such tubes breaks, logically.
Oh but I'm sure we're warned about the health issues... not.

Mercury effects:
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/effects.htm

So who the fucking hell would want that kind of crap in his house?

So to sum up:
  1. A CFL emits noticeable levels of radiation, which long term effects have not been studied, and which happen to disturb nearby electronics, despite saving 75% of energy in comparison to incandescent lightbulbs.
    How such an observation would not warrant an immediate serious study of short, medium and long term effects of such radiations is incredible. Ecology is more important than human health (again, another layer of the whole "humans = virus for Earth" ideology of late).
  2. It's a potential environmental and health disaster in waiting, containing a poisonous metal, but nothing is told about this problem, and there's no warning on any CFL package, which is completely unacceptable!
    You may have one mercury thermometer at home, but you'll have entire collections of CFLs. You may buy one mercury thermometer in a decade (and there are plenty of other types of safe thermometers to buy), but you're going to buy several CFLs per year, and there is no alternative.
And people ask me why the hell I'm being worried by those things and the health "authorities" which are supposed to take care of us.

What about LEDs? They're not "green" enough?
The goverment will only get away with what the people let them get away (for a good example: see copyright laws. No one gives a <explit word> about those, regardless of all the laws).
Oh but the thing here is that copyright laws are largely violated on a peer basis because there's not a cop behind your bad 24/24.
That's the point of the energy-monitoring. See what you use by the second, with no possibility to evade anything.
It does sound crazy and even a tad fascist to me, but it's been proposed and you should not be surprised if it surfaces again.
Besides, if the goverment wants to abuse people who use more electricity they don't need satalites. The data on how much you use is already available. Heck, over where I live the local police uses said data to find people who grow weed in the atic. No need for satalites.
I never said that using satellites made any sense to me. But it does when one wants to monitor everything in a grid system. Again, that's not made up.
I am not an energy waster. I swtich off everything. Light, screen, even LEDs. But it would be absurd to believe that people don't try to cheat on electricy bill. It's relatively easy to do.
Sniffing the line where the juice flows, that's going to slam a wedge into such practices.
This is false. There have been many quite critical reports and quite a few protests over the way the South American goverments abuse the forests and land in general there. Most of those by people like Greenpeace or the WWF (I hope I got the abbreviation right here, I don't mean the wrestlers :P). Some by less biased parties and some of these (at least in Europe) where aired on public radio or TV.

The reality is that the 'eco crusaders' (and a whole bunch of other people) have been very vocal about the mess that is Brazil (and other countries nearby). First I ever heard about the problems in the Amazon area where through a TV ad by... Greenpeace.

Heck, there is currently a series of goverment paid ads on TV telling us we don't actually have to eat pesticide sprayed food if we don't want to, we could eat 'biological' food instead (silly name, I know). But then, people don't buy the non-pesticide sprayed stuff. It's more expensive see and they'd rather eat the poison and pay less.

Oh... Before you ask: I am not supporting Greenpeace. They are 'a tad' too militant for my liking.
I was being scornful by using the term eco-crusader. I should have said official eco-politicians, those who brag a lot about ecology, the global-warming farce, only for you to accept greater taxation while they sit on their hands when Haliburton comes into town.

As for Greenpeace, they're quite a messy group. They can have good messages just as much as do totally stupid things, like painting seals, which fucked up their natural camouflate and resulted in increased death rate by natural predators.
Also, I have never been really sure that the attack on the Rainbow Warrior was much of an accident. It clearly sent a big threatening message, even as an accident anyway.
In the same vein, as part of having the government take care of Mother Nature, you probably heard about it taking control of absolutely all water spots
As opposed to the 'better' way of letting the -as named so earlier- greedy corporatists control them?
Err... hand in hand, dude. I even heard of some private companies even buying large areas of land in some countries, perhaps even in the US, despite the fact that it would represent a monetary loss in their main objective and activity, merely because of the sources of water which would be worth a shit lot.
The point is that the politicians allow the states to literally regulate every single pool in the country to a degree that is unsound.
It's also very easy to not push it that far. If only because the 'great leaders' of the world have been utterly incapable of changing even a single thing about what any country really does. It's one thing to claim something. It's quite another to enforce it. And I for one don't think the US, EU, et al are looking for Vietnam 2.0.
This has nothing to do with a typical war whatsoever, but control of resources via political and economical pressure. The cynic in me would tell you that the government is largely pushing forth the interests of lobbies, so it's not surprising if there's been little progress compared to what could have been achieved, if money and control had been put into the right hands.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Global Warming, CO2...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:03 pm

Global warming, one tooth less.

RELEASED The censored EPA CO2 endangerment document – final report.
Watts Up With That? wrote: On June 25th the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) released a draft copy of the suppressed EPA report by EPA employee Alan Carlin critical of the EPA’s position on Carbon Dioxide saying:

The released report is a draft version, prepared under EPA’s unusually short internal review schedule, and thus may contain inaccuracies which were corrected in the final report.

While we hoped that EPA would release the final report, we’re tired of waiting for this agency to become transparent, even though its Administrator has been talking transparency since she took office. So we are releasing a draft version of the report ourselves, today,” said CEI General Counsel Sam Kazman.
[...]
The draft version of the censored report is found here (big file, so try to right-click download it instead of opening it in your browser).

The final version, following a tight 5-days study allowed by the EPA, is found here.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Global Warming, CO2...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:23 pm

A drop of lol in an ocean of wtf...
Sea Level Falling In 2010

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Global Warming, CO2...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:17 pm

In 2012, we've been through two rigorous winters like I had never seen in ages.

We also get that: Theft and Apparent Forgery of Heartland Institute Documents.

Anti global warming institutes spending some millions against the total billions, the shock! Even more when the accusation hinges on doctored documents...

User avatar
Khas
Starship Captain
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Protoss Embassy to the Federation

Re: Global Warming, CO2...

Post by Khas » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:41 pm

And here in the US, we've had the mildest winter I've seen since, well, ever, really.

Post Reply