A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

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sonofccn
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A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by sonofccn » Sun May 21, 2017 1:48 am

2046 wrote: In no way could "vote your conscience" be taken as gasoline against unity, especially versus the king of political disunity via fuel-air explosives.

But, we can continue that in another thread if desired. As far off the rails as this one's been taken, going into actual political discussion still seems improper.
I would have to disagree. "Vote your conscience" had already become something of a rallying cry for NeverTrumpers' tilting at windmills crusade. His using it could only be interpreted as a jab against Trump/ a wink to the NeverTrumpers. A group, by definition, opposed to unifying behind the chosen candidate.

By "king of political disunity via fuel-air explosives" I assume you mean Trump. He is who he is. But he was the one to get the nod. Again after a bloody primary sinking into a political civil war. Wounds needed to be closed or at least only torn open by Trump the egotistical blowhard. Cruz was supposed to be better than that.

Or at least that's my opinion. Interesting times to alive, no? One way or the other I feel in my bones this era will go down into the immortality of history.

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by 2046 » Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 pm

I reject whole-heartedly the claim that one side must be held to a standard while the other need not be held to any at all. Yes, being an insufferable ****bag who ran as a 1930's bog-standard liberal fascist got Trump the nomination, but that doesn't suddenly make it okay or require that others beCheeto their lips.

Cruz was not #NeverTrump though he should've been, both personally and politically. His speech at Cleveland was timeless and should have been his last word on 2016. Instead, he threw away his career and his personal pride.

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by sonofccn » Sun May 21, 2017 3:58 pm

2046 wrote:I reject whole-heartedly the claim that one side must be held to a standard while the other need not be held to any at all. Yes, being an insufferable ****bag who ran as a 1930's bog-standard liberal fascist got Trump the nomination, but that doesn't suddenly make it okay or require that others beCheeto their lips.
Begging your indulgence but I don't believe I argued for only one side to be held to any standard. Just that the process should be respected and the party given a chance to heal. Or as much as a chance as it ever was going to get.

And, for everything it is worth, I'm not trying to say you have to like Trump. I understand he's a polarizing jackass. And yes he's closer to a New Deal Democrat than anything else. You have every right to argue that's the wrong direction for the party to go. But, obviously, there were Republicans/Conservatives who disagreed with that assessment. For us to be a party we have to at least somewhat tolerate our disagreements and try to work through them.

Because as bad as we may disagree I assure you the Democrat party's worse.
2046 wrote:Cruz was not #NeverTrump though he should've been, both personally and politically. His speech at Cleveland was timeless and should have been his last word on 2016. Instead, he threw away his career and his personal pride.
Just so I clearly understand you, are you disagreeing "vote your conscience" had gained currency among the NeverTrump before Cruz said it? And/or are you disagreeing Cruz used that phrase deliberately?

Because, strictly speaking, I wouldn't disagree that Cruz was not #NeverTrump. As someone eyeing 2020 he obviously had to keep his options open. I do however, as I said, think he gave a nod and wink to them for likely the exact same reasons he later gave a more throaty support of Trump.

Lastly if I have said anything to upset you I do apologize. It was never my intention. This was solely to defend my point of view or at least better understand yours.

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by 2046 » Sun May 21, 2017 6:19 pm

You're fine. I am not upset in the least at you.

Referring to being held to standards, my point was simply that those who bashed Cruz last July on the basis of party unity were largely the folks who backed the guy who said he'd go third-party if he didn't win the nomination. Then there was the silly pledge stuff, which he also explicitly abrogated and specifically said Cruz was released from, and then Trumpkins were all "but Cruz pledged!"

It was maddeningly inconsistent. But, then, their Trump was the guy who bitched about the unfairness of the Republican delegate system compared to direct votes but now acts like the Electoral College delegate system is the end-all-be-all of righteousness.

As for conservatives disagreeing about Trump, the simple fact is that no informed, reasonable conservative could possibly have supported him over Cruz during the primaries. Whether on ideological grounds (Trump was clearly no conservative or Constitutionalist) or on strategic ones vis-a-vis stopping terrible-candidate Hillary (to whom Trump very nearly lost), Trump was a complete yuge disaster in the bigliest way possible.

Also, to revise mtly earlier statement, Trump didn't win the nomination per se. It was handed to him on a platter by Kasich, who can go right to hell as far as I am concerned.

As for Democrats being worse . . . that's short-term thinking. As I predicted during the primaries, Trump is destroying conservatism and compromising conservatives. Just as the left rallied under Bush amd the right under Obama, the left rallies now. At least under Hillary the failure of Trumpism and RINOs would've been more apparent and the right could've rallied under a more Constitutionalist banner. Instead, everyone on the right is confused, twisting themselves in knots to rationalize and accept the sunshine blown up their behinds by the most disgusting Trumpsuckers.

As for "vote your conscience" . . . Cruz basically bashed #NeverTrump circa his endorsement and never really grasped the depths of Trump's ideological depravity, so even if he knew the phrase he didn't understand it.

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by sonofccn » Thu May 25, 2017 1:36 pm

We appear to be drifting. I certainly had no intention of rehashing the entire primary. Suffice it to say the Republican party has competing ideas on how to move forward and what "Conservatism" is and should be. My argument, to both NeverTrumpers and Trump supporters, is we still have more in common than not in common. We should focus on that and quite being quite such assholes to each other.
2046 wrote:As for "vote your conscience" . . . Cruz basically bashed #NeverTrump circa his endorsement and never really grasped the depths of Trump's ideological depravity, so even if he knew the phrase he didn't understand it.
How specifically did he bash #NeverTrump?

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by 2046 » Fri May 26, 2017 2:28 am

It's hard as hell to find a half-remembered quote amongst all the commentary about the primaries, but suffice it to say he argued in September that #NeverTrump was incorrect. In the Beck interview he said "One of the unfortunate things about the reaction is Cleveland is that for many who were watching, it was perceived that I was essentially embracing NeverTrump. I have never been a NeverTrumper.”

His argument of "binary choice" was also toeing the silly line of anti-#NeverTrump folk.

In any case, I recall a quote suggesting a stronger association between #NeverTrump and a Hillary win, with suitable poor opinion suggested.

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by sonofccn » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:18 pm

Truly sorry for the lack of reply...mostly been trying to get out of my own head these past few days.

Anyway I just wanted to thank you for taking your time to discuss this with me. I do appreciate it and I think I understand, better, your position. And I hope we can debate again in the future, just over a far less depressing subject. :)

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by 2046 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:05 am

Anytime.

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:33 pm

If you want less depressing:

The Penguins won the cup...



:)

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Re: A thread for politics and stuff...I guess

Post by sonofccn » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Praeothmin wrote:If you want less depressing:

The Penguins won the cup...



:)
For a second there I thought you were talking about Penguin from DC.

But I appreciate the thought, Praeo. :)

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

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