sonofccn wrote:If they don't care about the plight could they please stop trying to wipe a certain country off the map please?
It's terribly short sighted not to understand that hundreds of thousands of people, if not more, have considered the creation of the State of Israel like a terrible injustice, at the sacrifice of their own rights and so on.
There obviously are shades of gray. Take the link above. The claim that the Iranian president called for the destruction of Israel has been a complete strawman. At best, it has been asked to remove the government.
You'll find all degress of views on this question, from those who accept and recognize Israel, to those who would want it deconstructed. There is certainly not an unified front.
I could ask you, how would you behave if your ancestors, from perhaps one, two or three generations ago, were removed from their own cherished land by brute force.
Denying this truth will not help, and it's terribly hypocritical to point fingers, while you do know that there's like 100% chances you'd have an axe to grind against people you could call impostors, usurpers, invaders or else.
Although this thirst for revenge in some people's minds is surely not going to lead to a peace, how can we, as intelligent, sensible and, I hope, loving people, ignore this?
How?
Wasn't the "victory" from WWII supposed to put a term to obscurantism, injustice and useless bloodshed?
Why was it crowned with such an injustice in Middle East, then?
How can one not realize what is plain to see?
Yes the middle east is a hellhole, due to the natives own issues,
No. The issues are also largely caused by the interests of people who are certainly not natives to this region.
Again, control of energy (oil) and territory (ranges of bases and missiles, ground and naval routes, air interdiction and intervention).
It's not that hard to realize that this region is the middle of a struggle with empires, imperial wannabes and ex-empires wanting to control all of it.
... but nation after nation has supposedly fought wars over Israel existence stemming from this problem but refuse to help in the slightest.
Which nation should help?
A great many palestinians, probably most, refuse the Palestiniain authority, considered a mere extension of the US-Israel arm.
A great many Arab countries have deals with the US and its allies, or simply do not have the power to fight or even defend themselves. Some have people in their governments who are just too close to Washington.
These countries, plus Europe and other nations across the world, officially define the Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups, and we know that they find part of their support within the Palestinian refugess.
So in such conditions, how could things change?
A country like Syria, which seems to be making more efforts than others, have been on the black list of the US. What about the opinion of the people in these countries? Do they like having so many refugees within their borders? Would they suddenly accept these Palestinians, poor and with no job, to suddenly be part of the economy of their own country?
Also why would the US or Israel care about these refugees? You ask like it's some global plan or something to keep the refugees as refugees.
What happeend is that you formerly alleged these two countries had higher moral standards. Why would they not help then?
I'm going to tell you why Israel won't. As long as the people in charge of the country remain there, this is not going to happen.
I've been reading a good number of quotations from people orbiting the Israelian ultra-nationalist government, or being at its helm. Basically, what comes out of the cumulated mass of such quotes is a clear will to have a theocracy with as many Jews as few non-Jews in.
In the end, the Jews who are stuck in the middle are those who are going to suffer terribly. They already have before. The Jews caught in explosions and subject to aggressions are those who suffer and will suffer, but in reality, I don't think the government truly cares about the lives of these people.
So why would they care even more about the Palestinians?
They don't want them. If they accepted Palestinians, Israel would be weakened from the inside. It is not in line with the current way of going.
Could and should we count on Israel? You couldn't pick a worse candidate right now. Some of Israel's most high profile influential nationalistic political figures (like Mr. Sharansky), laying down the lines of the government's future political and military decisions, have made no secret that an Israel without Arab Palestinians would be a dream. That such people are accepted, find support and dictate in a way or another Israel's acts of tomorrow precisely gives us an idea why they don't give a shit and will continue the carnage.
There is no carnage only a bunch of people who refuse to function in the state of Isreal and are kept around by the other players as an Ace card.
Sorry, but Gaza and Lebanon were carnages. I wouldn't even speak of the West Bank.
Tell me this. If Isreal is such a monster why hasn't it wiped the other nations off the map?
They don't have to. They just need to kill and ravage enough so they annex territories. They don't want to annex nuclear wastelands (that's without saying that nuking their neighbours would not spare them from the fallout - on this note, I'll invite you to consider the cataclysmic amount of uranium dropped on Iraq, and you'll understand the absolute ecological disaster).
But don't be too hasty. There has been clear plan to level the half of Afghanistan, as strategists of any side know that this region cannot be controlled and only a full barrage can get clear of it. If the US and else want to increase control of this nation like they did previously, they'll need far more resources and men.
Mind you, these demands should now be covered by the expansion of NATO's power and the military service instaured by Obama (of course, the cannon fodder will have more to do with non-WASP than WASP).
It is already a pariah among the world comunity so it isn't like it would loose anything and nor is it that even the combined might of the Middle East could pose a serious problem to it.
Israel? A pariah?
What about the lobbies in the US, its congress, and all over Europe? In Europe with have laws which, as they openly destroy the constitutions, make you any form of cricism against Israel in mainstream communication organs is swiftly suppressed.
What is left of a true democracy is a farce. Corruption aside, it only works as long as you shut up.
That's the argument. The Iranians, Iraqis,etc would all love the idea of a jewish state if they were not zonionists war mongers etc. I of course see things from a differnt viewpoint. I never said miracle. However sixty years is a long time. I'm not sure on middle eastern imigration rules but even at a slow trickel spread across the middle east they should have all found a home by now. Of course from what I understand thier are rules in place to ensure that never happens.
Palestinians had a sort of home. More than 75% of Jordan was comprised of Palestinians. That was before the uproar, the governmental brute force, the martial law, the fight, the short lived peace and, finally, Black September and the expulsion of anything accused of remotely smelling PLO.
I would prefer the term reasons but of course. We are the world's police force and as such our "beat" covers a wide swatch of property. The differnce is we don't justify a skirmish war with mexico on a band of refugees they kicked out and then deny them actual aid.
As I said, I consider the US to have a wide range of just as worse excuses served to Americans to go to war.
Israel is a nation surronded by enemies who wish to see it exterminated.
Eh? Not only is this, again, nothing more than parotting bullshit warmongering propaganda (again, shades of gray), but Egypt has surely sided with the US in a sufficient manner to stop saying they're ennemies of Israel. Saudi Arabia, not so far, are not an issue, and the sea is crawling with Israeli and NATO warships as we speak.
Besides, people from the Israeli government and its influencial think tanks make no secret about expanding Israel even more.
It is attacked on a fairly regular basis.
And they attack on a fairly regular basis as well.
We can go on with this argument, but they're as gullible as the terrorists. They apply indiscriminate firepower on targets which they pretend were covers for terrorists, but were nothing more than schools, hospitals and houses were no terrorists would be found. They keep treating this as an oopsie on and on.
You know, it's not without reason that the colonies are called colonies, and not Israel yet.
They come with a properly cooked argument as "pre-emptive attack", applied within pseudo context of "self-defense". They keep pushing the US to attack Iran. They even suggested a couple of times to nuke Iran.
Israel is a mess, and a geostrategical and cultural problem. Its birth was forced and paid with blood. So is its expansion. How can in such a context, things calm down?
Geez, things were much simpler in 1910.
It is a relativly advanced western democratic country equal to anything you find in europe.
Well, there's surely some irony in your claim, but in truth, it's mainly erroneous. Even if I don't think Europeans live in true democracies where people know where their money really goes and see how it is really spent, Europeans don't live in theocracies.
It's not without a reason that people outside of the traditional occidental media circles, and even within the UN, have pointed out the activities of the Israli government which are nothing short of an apartheid to many.
You said you could not find sympathy for Israel because of the refugee situation.
Wrong. I couldn't find sympathy because of other reasons, which have led and maintain the status-quo regarding the refugees.
I wanted to know if that wasn't the case would you champion a freedom loving nation vs despotic ones.
Yeah yeah, Hitler on one side, Captain Planet on the other.
You sure have a nice painting here.
The "promised land". Just like if there was a consensus on its frontiers, or even if it was promised at all. Guys like those of Naturei Karta for example seem to say that, as a matter of interpretation, the scriptures actually forbid Jews from ever attempting to return to this land until God would say so. Of course, it's not as sexy and sellable as the idea of Jewdom.
If God descends and says Israel must cease to exist, after we check his id card, then I will be the first to argue for it's dismantling.
Actually, the interpretation I was refering to would likely mean that when he comes down to shake hands, this is then, and only then, that Jews will be allowed to return to Israel.
If they are happy in Iran, good for them. I take it they are of the "can't go back until HE gives the word" group.
I don't know. Perhaps. Perhaps they don't care about the money and houses they were offered.
