As now everybody can see, Serafina has confirmed what I have said: Already the debate about the question if a male person (XY gonosomes, penis, testicles, no womb or ovaries) with a feminine gender is a man or if a female person (XX gonosomes, womb, ovaries, no penis or testicles) with a masculine gender is a woman is an insult to Serafina. With other words, that topic is forbidden. We have to accept what Serafina wishes, turn over and are not allowed to have a from Serafina's opinion dissenting opinion.
Yeah, if you would be actually debating and answering any points.
You NEVER addressed any issues of science, law or morality - instead, you literary relied on semantics.
You also lacked the basic decency to address me as female just because i want it.
But that is exactly the reason why I say that neither the gender nor superficial plastic surgeries can change what sex one has: Either that of a man or that of a woman (or that of a hermaphrodite). I have no problem if a man wants to live as a woman - to a certain degree. But fact is that this man is, even if he looks like a woman, still a man. And where there is sex segregation already (e.g. changing rooms for man and changing rooms for woman, prison or hospital wards for man and prison or hospital wards for woman etc.) a transsexual has to adhere to the same rules all other members of this sex
have to adhere to.
In other words, you want to prevent transsexuals from becoming accepted as members of their gender.
I explained why this is harmful and utterly immoral, which you are just ignoring. How is that not bigoted?
I do not say that because I personally would have a problem with e.g. a man in a woman changing room and shower. I have no problem with what we Germans are calling FKK (Freikörperkultur). I even think that FKK is a good way to have a better touch with reality.
How does that have anything to do with transsexuality?
Oh, sorry, it's just a red herring. My bad, should have smelled it instantly.
ans are calling FKK (Freikörperkultur). I even think that FKK is a good way to have a better touch with reality. There is an unrealistic stereotype of what constitutes beauty and the ideal body type as portrayed by the media, fashion and entertainment industries. This results, as many scientific researches are showing, in many girls and meanwhile even boys who are not satisfied with their bodies and than are developing eating disorders or are spending all their time in a fitness centre to become as perfect. As other scientific researches are showing, are these unrealistic expectations meanwhile even affecting the criteria for partner selection of many people. The appearance of someone becomes more and more important and personal qualities more and more unimportant. Other studies are showing that it is unhealthy for the sexual development of kids (teens) to be able nowadays to have access to porn in internet. That too results in totally unrealistic expectations (not only regarding the size of penises and breasts) and an unhealthy attitude regarding love, intimacy and sex.
You are utterly ignorant of actual pyschological research into transsexuality if you are trying to claim that it is caused by porn or beauty products.
But I'm a tolerant human being and I can understand that many people don't see it my way. Many people have something that is called sense of shame. They do not want to be seen naked by members of the opposite sex with which they are not in an intimate relationship. For some people it is even difficult to unclothe in front of a physician if he or she are not from the same sex. For some women it can be a similar traumatic experience to be forced to unclothe in front of men as a rape can be. Some people even have problems with unclothing in the presence of members of their own sex.
While shame is a naturally phenomenon (it can be observed worldwide and not only in humans), the shame caused by nakedness may be a social phenomenon. But it is nevertheless not a sign of bigotry (because it has nothing to do with prejudices) and it is not something one simply can demand to vanish.
How does that have anything to do with transsexuality?
Oh, right, it's rotten fish again.
Furthermore there are women who are disgusted by the sight of a penis. That too has nothing to do with bigotry because the disgust is an emotionally reaction and has nothing to do with prejudices. The chances are good that such a woman knows exactly what a penis is supposed to do (to her).
Yeah, because i am totally insisting on prancing around naked around women. Of course you are assuming that i have no sense of shame and that i would want people to recognize my sex regardless of the fact that i have declared the exact opposite.
Furthermore, that would NOT be an issue after the operation - but you have declared that a transwomen should under NO circumstances be allowed in female facilities.
Even your own logic doesn't justify your bigotry.
And let us not forget that parents have the right to decide how they are raising their children. If parents do not want that their still small children are confronted with the naked reality that there is something different between men and women, boys and girls, it is their right - even if I think that this is stupid.
I think that these are the main reasons why there is a sex segregation at all - even where there is no need to fear rape or similar things one could fear because naked men and naked women are at the same time at the same place.
Again - what gives you the idea that i would even undress in front of anyone, much less in public, without any problems?
Oh, right, sorry - you are a bigot.
I respect the feelings of the people who have a sense of shame.
Serafina does not respect these people.
It's their problem, if they can not cope with a naked someone of the opposite sex in their presence. Serafina's opinion is that not Serafina has to consider the feeling of these people, but these people have to change their attitude.
As evidenced by - you saying so.
Furthermore I did nowhere advocate an implementation of anything that results in violence, disrespect, persecution and bigotry? I have just summarized my opinion on that topic and nowhere is the result of my opinion violence, disrespect, persecution or bigotry.
You advocate discrimination and segregation, and you have also advocated the implementation of a policy that leads to violence (which you have not retracted when i pointed that out).
That is Serafina who seems to like to be seen as the victim. To achieve that, Serafina stops at nothing and even compares the lot of transsexuals with the lot of Jews and black slaves. To demand from a transwoman to go into a man changing room is apparently as bad as to demand from a Jew to go into a gas chamber.
Evidently you are incapable of grasping comparisons and hyperbole.
It is the same with the claim that I advocated implementing a new social class similar to those of the Hijra, who have next-to no legal rights and are heavily discriminated against.
That never happened. I merely considered the possibility that not only transsexuals are neither man nor woman if, as Serafina argues, not the sex but only the gender decides if someone is a man or a woman. Because than it could be possible as well that there are more than two genders. And indeed, since the late 20th century, some hijra activists and Western non-government organizations (NGOs) have been lobbying for official recognition of the hijra as a kind of "third sex" or "third gender", as neither man nor woman.
So you never did it?
But you are doing it RIGHT NOW!
That's exactly what i am talking about - you want to implement a new social class (third gender) for transsexuals.
Which would mean that you deny transwomen (-men) exactly what they want - recognition as a woman (man).
Furthermore, what legal rights would that class have? Judging by your overall conduct, neither those of men OR women - in other words, they would be social outcasts just like the hijra.
Serafina would likely argue that these hijra do not know themselves if they think that they are a third gender and not either a man or a woman and of course they want to have no legal rights and be heavily discriminated because that is the only possible outcome of the implementation of a third gender. These hijra activists and Western non-government organizations (NGOs) have to be as unreasonable as I am if I consider the possibility of a third gender.
Given that you have provided absolutely zero evidence, that's hardly something i have to refute.
Furthermore - for the hijra, recongnition as a third gender would indeed be an improvement - given that they are currently treated like you advocate it: As men.
And their culture already sees them as some kind of third gender, they are merely fighting for legal recognition.
Overall, you are a bigot who want's to keep transsexuals as shunned and rightless as possbile. You have flat-out declared that you would address a transwoman as male, regardless of her transition, and that you would want to deny her all recognition as a woman regardless of all circumstances.
You would even go as far as creating a new social class, presumably to shield both biological men and women from something you are bigoted and prejudiced against.
Of course, you are not actually going to address any of my points - you always declare them baseless accusations and then repeat yourself.
Your one actual example where allowing transwomen exactly the same rights as women (sex-specific facilities) isn't as much of an issue as you are trying to imply.
First, it is NOT an issue in bathing rooms - since, you know, you can't actually SEE something.
Second, the same applies in hospital wards - unless you think that patients are lying around naked.
Third, it also doesn't apply in prison wards - for the very same reason.
At most, it applies in public baths and changing rooms - but you are utterly ignoring that most transwomen are too ashamed to do that anyway.
Last but not least - ALL these reasons would no longer apply after their vaginoplasty, yet you INSIST that transwomen are barred from being recognized as women all their life.
Luckily, german (and most european) law contradicts you.
Another point:
Your arguments are still nearly identitcal to anti-gay arguments.
To show this is in a short display:
Dictionaries clearly define marriage and relationships, as well as love and sex, as something between a MAN and a WOMAN. Why do these people think that they can change that definition? Telling the truth that this is not a relationship and love is never the wrong thing to do.
Furthermore, they simply ignore the rights of others!
Some people are disgusted by two men kissing, they should not be allowed to do it in public. And we should not allow gay men into male changing rooms, the other men are going to be uncomfortable!
Perhaps we could implement some kind of new social class for them, so that the rest of the public doesn't have to deal with them.
Well, i can't obfuscate as well as you, but those are pretty much the arguments you used.
I suggest we split this off into the actual debate thread and reopen it, since WILGA evidently still wants to defend his with to deny rights to transsexuals.
