Starfleet Jedi

Just finished watching Shadow of Malevolence, where it was stated that it would take the Malevolence...a stated to be fast warship by General Grevious...three minutes and fifty-one seconds to travel one parsec or 3.26163626 lightyears.

Impressive speed. At that rate, it would take them to make the trip from Bajor to Romulas in less than five hours. It's slightly above fifty times faster than Warp 8 and about twelve times faster than Warp 9.

Strangely enough, the ship seemed to be unable to cross through a nebula; forcing them to take the long way around. I guess nebulas mess up hyperspace or something.

What do you guys think?

When it comes to the time involved, I'm not sure. You probably measured the on-screen time it took for the ship to travel to their destination, but there were a lot of scene cuts and the like in between which could mess that up. It could be a lot longer, it could be a bit shorter.

As for the nebula, it's said that the density is why you can't hyperspace through it.

Oh, and parsecs in SW doesn't have to be the same as parsecs in our galaxy, given that there is no earth in SW. But it most likely is something similar.

l33telboi wrote:When it comes to the time involved, I'm not sure. You probably measured the on-screen time it took for the ship to travel to their destination, but there were a lot of scene cuts and the like in between which could mess that up. It could be a lot longer, it could be a bit shorter.

Indeed I did, which I was hesitant to do, given the circumstances with Star Wars and their funky drive, but I'm sure we'll get other things to work from.

But it is a far cry from those who claimed that it takes only days for SW ships to cross their galaxy; it would take months. In a ship that's considered fast. Assuming of course, that they didn't need to stop and refuel every now and then.

As for the nebula, it's said that the density is why you can't hyperspace through it.

*shrugs*

Then it's possible that the fighters had found a thin spot and decided to go through it? They didn't seem to be traveling fast enough to reach anything near light speed.

Oh, and parsecs in SW doesn't have to be the same as parsecs in our galaxy, given that there is no earth in SW. But it most likely is something similar.

I'd have to say it does; otherwise the whole quote is worthless and the gesture meaningless.

l33telboi wrote: Oh, and parsecs in SW doesn't have to be the same as parsecs in our galaxy, given that there is no earth in SW. But it most likely is something similar.

That's kind of irrelevant since we can assume that many of the inhabitiable terrestrial-type worlds follow similar orbital distances from their primary sun (or suns) as Earth does, and therefore a derived SW parsec likely is the same, or very close to being the same as a parsec is for an observer on Earth.
-Mike

Mith wrote: Just finished watching Shadow of Malevolence, where it was stated that it would take the Malevolence...a stated to be fast warship by General Grevious...three minutes and fifty-one seconds to travel one parsec or 3.26163626 lightyears.

Let's see here, this is pretty impressive speed, if a parsec in SW is measured as it is on Earth at 3.36 ly. That would bring up SW hyperspace speed to around 445,053c.

Mith wrote: Impressive speed. At that rate, it would take them to make the trip from Bajor to Romulas in less than five hours. It's slightly above fifty times faster than Warp 8 and about twelve times faster than Warp 9.

Actually, we don't know very well what warp 8 and warp 9 really are in actual canon ST terms. Since Bajor is established in the maps as being on the opposite side of the Federation from Romulus, or at mimimum some 6,000-8,000 ly, it would then take the Malevolence somewhere between 4.92 and 6.56 days to traverse the Federation. It would take 2.73 months for the Malevolence to travel across a galaxy the size of the Milky Way.

Even as impressive as that is, it is still no where near the millions or even billions of c that the Warsies have claimed for SW ships, and it falls well under what Federation ships have been canonically shown capable of doing when travelling through well charted territory.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Let's see here, this is pretty impressive speed, if a parsec in SW is measured as it is on Earth at 3.36 ly. That would bring up SW hyperspace speed to around 445,053c.

Impressive indeed, although we may see lower estimations, as the Malevolence was stated to be a "fast" ship, so we might see lower speeds.

Actually, we don't know very well what warp 8 and warp 9 really are in actual canon ST terms. Since Bajor is established in the maps as being on the opposite side of the Federation from Romulus, or at mimimum some 6,000-8,000 ly, it would then take the Malevolence somewhere between 4.92 and 6.56 days to traverse the Federation. It would take 2.73 months for the Malevolence to travel across a galaxy the size of the Milky Way.

I actually forgot about the 8,000 lightyears quote, which does make it difficult to determine...but the issue then is that map is horribly, horribly inaccurate...or people in Enterprise have no idea how far Vulcan is...all of which are possible.

Well, given that...it would mean that it's very possible that Warp 8 is nearly as fast as a "fast" Hyperspace capable ship. Hmm, this does indeed present us with some problems. According to the map and a quote, the Federation is only a few hundred lightyears. Then again, this map probably isn't too accurate, we might presume it's a rough "drawing" of the UFP, given its artistic nature.

But yes, that would make the UFP's ships well within range of SW ships.

Even as impressive as that is, it is still no where near the millions or even billions of c that the Warsies have claimed for SW ships, and it falls well under what Federation ships have been canonically shown capable of doing when travelling through well charted territory.
-Mike

Of course, but you can't seriously expect them to not and try and pull crap like that given the ICS issue.

To note, it might be that faster then light velocities depend on what types of lanes they're traveling along. Major lanes might mean they can travel faster and traveling like Grievous did there might merit slower velocities.

However, bare in mind that the point five million c figure is an upper limit. Like I said, there were scene cuts and the like in the footage, they jumped from the interior of the Malevolence to Anakin and his squadron of bombers, for instance. There's really no telling just what the actual timeframe was.

Oh, and it might be worth checking up on the 10 parsecs bit as well, something tells me that it would yield a much lower figure, because they spent a lot of the episode traveling those 10 parsecs.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Let's see here, this is pretty impressive speed, if a parsec in SW is measured as it is on Earth at 3.36 ly. That would bring up SW hyperspace speed to around 445,053c.

Mith wrote: Impressive indeed, although we may see lower estimations, as the Malevolence was stated to be a "fast" ship, so we might see lower speeds.

I think, like with Trek, we are in for a whole host of contradictory speed references. It's been that way for years in the EU, and I do not see that changing any time soon. Given that there is now a more solid canon reference to SW navigational concerns, I would expect that SW ships will require longer times to traverse their galaxy. It also puts paid to the long-held Warsie notion that SW ships will run rampant in the Milky Way since even mere clouds of dust can stop a hyperspace using starship. It also means that ST super-drives like Transwarp and Slipstream are far superior since they appear to have few, if any navigational issues.

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Actually, we don't know very well what warp 8 and warp 9 really are in actual canon ST terms. Since Bajor is established in the maps as being on the opposite side of the Federation from Romulus, or at minimum some 6,000-8,000 ly, it would then take the Malevolence somewhere between 4.92 and 6.56 days to traverse the Federation. It would take 2.73 months for the Malevolence to travel across a galaxy the size of the Milky Way.

Mith wrote:I actually forgot about the 8,000 light years quote, which does make it difficult to determine...but the issue then is that map is horribly, horribly inaccurate...or people in Enterprise have no idea how far Vulcan is...all of which are possible.

You're focusing in on only one example. The distances from Earth to Alpha Centauri, for example, would suggest around 250-300 ly for the Federation, while the distances from Rigel or other stars would suggest thousands of ly.

Given the "soft-canon" nature of the graphics, we would have to defer to Picard's ST:FC statement for the Federation's overall size. However, there is nothing that I know of that would contradict the positioning of Bajor and Romulus as shown on that map. More important as they are positioned along either side of the long axis of the Federation, and they are each a fair distance outside the marked boundaries of it as well.

In "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", we have the USS Bellerophon traversing this distance in no more than a week, and likely less time.

Mith wrote:Well, given that...it would mean that it's very possible that Warp 8 is nearly as fast as a "fast" Hyperspace capable ship. Hmm, this does indeed present us with some problems. According to the map and a quote, the Federation is only a few hundred light years. Then again, this map probably isn't too accurate, we might presume it's a rough "drawing" of the UFP, given its artistic nature.

Nearly? In the 23rd century, the E-1701 was able at warp 8.4 to traverse 990 ly in approximately 11.33 hours time as stated in "That Which Survives" [TOS, Season 3]. That means that the relatively primitive E-1701 was capable of 765,437c. Or nearly twice the speed of the Malevolence!

The E-D in "The Chase" achieves a much faster speed, well in excess of 1 million c.

Mith wrote: But yes, that would make the UFP's ships well within range of SW ships.

Yes, it would, or as shown above, handily exceed it. However, it should be noted that for Federation starships, this high a speed is generally not possible outside the well-charted areas of space. The same appears very true now of SW hyperspace.

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Even as impressive as that is, it is still no where near the millions or even billions of c that the Warsies have claimed for SW ships, and it falls well under what Federation ships have been canonically shown capable of doing when travelling through well charted territory.

Mith wrote: Of course, but you can't seriously expect them to not and try and pull crap like that given the ICS issue.

Oh, I expect them to claim that the Malevolence was going far slower than it's top speed or something to that effect. I still find it interesting in that a mere nebula can prevent hyperspace travel where in Trek a warp driven starship can still operate.
-Mike

l33telboi wrote: To note, it might be that faster then light velocities depend on what types of lanes they're traveling along. Major lanes might mean they can travel faster and traveling like Grievous did there might merit slower velocities.

Hyperspace appears to have a very serious limitation here if a mere nebula can prevent a starship from using it.

l33telboi wrote:However, bare in mind that the point five million c figure is an upper limit. Like I said, there were scene cuts and the like in the footage, they jumped from the interior of the Malevolence to Anakin and his squadron of bombers, for instance. There's really no telling just what the actual time frame was.

Really? I was under the impression that we had a clear cut dialog statement on distance travelled and the time taken to do so. Is that not correct, then?
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Really? I was under the impression that we had a clear cut dialog statement on distance travelled and the time taken to do so. Is that not correct, then?

We have a statement of distance traveled. A droid says "we have 1 parsec left to go", or something to that effect. And we later see the ship in question drop out of hyperspace. Mith measured the on-screen time between those two events, and it might be the correct time.

But.

Like I also said, the scene changes from the bridge of the Malevolence to the bomber squadron traveling through the nebula in between that time. Which means that it's very possible a lot more time has passed between the statement and the exit.

Ah, so it is not like TOS' "That Which Survives" with a clear cut statement of both distance and time to traverse it. So yes, you are right. There could be more time passing than what we see.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:I think, like with Trek, we are in for a whole host of contradictory speed references. It's been that way for years in the EU, and I do not see that changing any time soon. Given that there is now a more solid canon reference to SW navigational concerns, I would expect that SW ships will require longer times to traverse their galaxy. It also puts paid to the long-held Warsie notion that SW ships will run rampant in the Milky Way since even mere clouds of dust can stop a hyperspace using starship. It also means that ST super-drives like Transwarp and Slipstream are far superior since they appear to have few, if any navigational issues.

Not really, for the most part we have entire parts of the story cut out, such as in the movies. The TV show is probably a better way to calculate. This one is by far the best and most accurate and as pointed out by a fellow Trekkie, it is possible that it is slower, but I wouldn't go much higher than say thirty minutes to an hour.

You're focusing in on only one example. The distances from Earth to Alpha Centauri, for example, would suggest around 250-300 ly for the Federation, while the distances from Rigel or other stars would suggest thousands of ly.

Yes, I am aware. =)

The map has shown some very large inaccuracies in some areas.

Given the "soft-canon" nature of the graphics, we would have to defer to Picard's ST:FC statement for the Federation's overall size. However, there is nothing that I know of that would contradict the positioning of Bajor and Romulus as shown on that map. More important as they are positioned along either side of the long axis of the Federation, and they are each a fair distance outside the marked boundaries of it as well.

Point. However, those boxes aren't part of the UFP's territory; otherwise that would include Qu'nos and Romulas. =p

In "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", we have the USS Bellerophon traversing this distance in no more than a week, and likely less time.

Yes, that's been mentioned. Only a bit slower than the Malevolence.

Nearly? In the 23rd century, the E-1701 was able at warp 8.4 to traverse 990 ly in approximately 11.33 hours time as stated in "That Which Survives" [TOS, Season 3]. That means that the relatively primitive E-1701 was capable of 765,437c. Or nearly twice the speed of the Malevolence!

The E-D in "The Chase" achieves a much faster speed, well in excess of 1 million c.

True, but the E-1701 came from a time when they tended to be a bit more loose about their speeds...not that I dispute its canon status. The Chase is a very good point though, but I think they were traveling at Warp 9 and had a bit of time cut out, but yes, exceptionally fast in that case.

Yes, it would, or as shown above, handily exceed it. However, it should be noted that for Federation starships, this high a speed is generally not possible outside the well-charted areas of space. The same appears very true now of SW hyperspace.

In some cases, yes, handily exceede it, although SW ships seem to be able to maintain their speed for longer, probably due to their conduit network and being spread out.

Oh, I expect them to claim that the Malevolence was going far slower than it's top speed or something to that effect. I still find it interesting in that a mere nebula can prevent hyperspace travel where in Trek a warp driven starship can still operate.
-Mike

Of which, there is no evidence to support that claim.=p

Otherwise I can say that the Enterprise E jumped from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in less than five minutes.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Hyperspace appears to have a very serious limitation here if a mere nebula can prevent a starship from using it.

Indeed it does, which means that any place with great density is going to be a massive problem for them.

Really? I was under the impression that we had a clear cut dialog statement on distance travelled and the time taken to do so. Is that not correct, then?
-Mike

He is correct, the estimated time is a upper limit calculation of a fast ship.

Mith wrote: Point. However, those boxes aren't part of the UFP's territory; otherwise that would include Qu'nos and Romulas. =p

Actually, it does not. Romulus and Remus have two boxes on either side, but they are not in any. Qo'nos appears to be in one, but that is not necessarily so as the view is a stylistic isomorphic one, and we may just be looking through the box at the Klingon home world on the opposite side. The same thing is true of the Tholian Assembly, which appears to be in a box, but may in fact be "underneath" the Federation territory.

Mith wrote:True, but the E-1701 came from a time when they tended to be a bit more loose about their speeds...not that I dispute its canon status. The Chase is a very good point though, but I think they were traveling at Warp 9 and had a bit of time cut out, but yes, exceptionally fast in that case.

Actually, the speeds in "The Chase" are not driven by timing the episode's events, but rather the time given by Picard's former mentor Professor Galen, and the distance of the route he planned on taking as pointed out in a galaxy map display that when measured is some 35,000 to 40,000 ly long.
-Mike

As far as Warp speeds go, this is something I had mentioned to JMS some time ago:
Last time I watched ST: Gen , when the Ent-B detected the Lak'ul in the ribbon.
The ship was about to be torn apart, and it was 3 light-years away from the Ent-B.

Let's be very conservative here, and say it took the Ent-B 30 minutes before it reached the ribbon (longer then the onscreen time).

3 LY = 28 382 400 000 000 km.
Divide that by (60s x 30m), it equals 15 768 000 000 times lightspeed.
15 billion times lightspeed.

I'd say that's very fast...