The ICS, TDiC and the Rabid Warsie Double Standard

[Socar]

I realize the canon rules are different here. But i was under the impression that "visuals override dialogue" and "author's intent is irrelevant" was in use here?

If you're referring to the "rules" of suspension of disbelief, yes, that is for the most part unanimously accepted. However, it should be noted that there are many people out there who actually feel that disregarding TDiC levels, simply because of what we see on screen, is actually a violation of suspension of disbelief, not the other way around. People have argued that if you suspend disbelief, then what we see on screen is overridden by the dialogue, and having the other way around (as others have already mentioned) would assume that everyone on those ships were idiots. People say that there are plenty of things seen on screen and on sci-fi in general that can't really be explained using known science, so it isn't that much of a stretch. People further argue that the ICS on the other hand is not supported by higher canon period, not by visuals or dialogue, and therefore it is actually more appropriate for it to be thrown out, than TDiC is.

Obviously, a lot of people (myself included) have some issues with the above reasoning, but take it for what you will.

[GStone]

Just leave the ICS people to themselves, why would you even want to debate with someone who according to you does things like this, clearly it would be a no win situation.

For many, the debate finale is already decided and is only really examined again each time there appears something they feel is canon. The debate is more about fleshing out ideas and idiot proofing arguments amongst these people. There is also sharpening one's logic and debating skills.

But, the thing to remember is that there are things that spark interests in people on any side of the debate that come from ICS supporters. Not in swaying people to their side, but sparks of what could be thought of creativity that, when applied differently, can send discussions to other areas.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I realize the canon rules are different here. But i was under the impression that "visuals override dialogue" and "author's intent is irrelevant" was in use here?

While you'll find that plenty of people here agree to that - more or less, perhaps less in the case of dialogue vs visuals - it isn't a rule applied across the board.

You may choose to apply those as criteria in a thread, and in an initial post starting a topic, you could choose to ask that others also follow them.

The debate is more about fleshing out ideas and idiot proofing arguments amongst these people. There is also sharpening one's logic and debating skills.

For me, I enjoy Star Trek and Star Wars as educational tools. As I've developed this website, it has occurred to me that a number of VS debaters are aggressively misinformed, poorly informed, or simply developing bad habits that they think are scientific, and I feel I ought to correct these misconceptions.

I also view the debate as an opportunity to explore common critiques of communicative action. It's no secret that fandom schisms often seem to be as irreconcilable a class of disagreement as any issue relating to religious dogma.

[GStone]

Yeah, I forgot that one. The vs debate does help many people get more into the sciences, even if it's just to be the armchair kind.

[l33telboi]

It's been a long time since i've seen TDiC, but if i remember correctly, you can see huge shockwaves on the planets surface, right? The argument against the massive firepower is basically that there aren't any fireballs visible from space, right?

But so what? You can calculate how much energy one of those blasts had in it just by witnessing the shockwave and the effect it had on the atmosphere, right? The atmosphere is the same as on earth, the gravity is the same as on earth, that's more then enough info to make a scaling and a calculation. Though of course the planets composition could change the gravity and thus also the size of it.

The only unkown then becomes exactly how the weapons that did all this worked since there should have been fireballs. Could it be that because they are DEWs the energy was pointed downwards, and thus the energy expansion would be directed towards the planets core, burrowing into the earth itself, and not spreading like an omni-directional bomb would, once it hit the ground. The shockwaves are still a bit of a mystery though.

[Mike DiCenso]

l33telboi, it always helps to be able to actually watch the episodes or movies in question, rather than rely on the biased discriptions of it from other people. You can get good screencaps at Trekcore (http://www.trekcore.com), though they do not have complete screencaps necessarily of a particular scene, and so being able to actually view the episodes again is important. In the case of the Founder's homeworld in the Omarion Nebula we know it has an approximately Earth-like atmosphere and gravity since Major Kira and Odo were able to walk on the surface without spacesuits or other special measures:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 46&pos=588

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =77&pos=66

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=335

The inital bombardment:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 52&pos=352

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 52&pos=353

The interesting thing to note is that the bombardment occurs on the planet's night side, and therefore the "brownish clouds" (the central parts of the explosions) that Warsies claim we are seening here are in fact glowing to some degree, as are the shockwave rings themselves. Further, if we were to assume the planet were Earth or Venus-like in size, many of the explosions seen would be on the order of hundreds to over a thousand km wide! So there is some significant energy being imparted here, even if we were to assume that the dialog about stripping the planet down to the core in 6 hours was somehow incorrect.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Eyeballing those effects and doing a quick calc gives me 0.5*1.5TT of rapid energy expansion from the largest of the shockwaves.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

I thought it was seven hours, one for the crust and six for the mantle.

[Enterprise E]

I believe that it was the crust would be destroyed within an hour, and the mantle within five. The way it was phrased seems to me that it could mean either that the whole process (destroying the crust and mantle) would take only five hours, or that the whole process would take six hours (one hour to destroy the crust, and after that, five hours for the mantle).

[Mike DiCenso]

Here's the dialog from the briefing session:


TAIN
(to Garak)
Our plan is to wait until we've
entered orbit of the Founders' planet,
then decloak and begin a massive
bombardment.

LOVOK
Computer analysis indicates that the
planet's crust will be destroyed
within one hour, and the mantle within
five.

GARAK
That should more than take care of
the Founders...

TAIN
Yes, it should. Unless they have
some planetary defenses we don't
know about. And the only person
here who might know the answer to
that question is Mister Odo.


Also recall that this ship and the others in the fleet were manned by "combat veterans", so if Changeling Lovok had spoken a blatant lie, someone would have noticed, if not Tain and Garak.
-Mike

[GStone]

I always thought of it as 1 hour for the crust and another 5 after the first hour for the mantle.

[Nonamer]

Here's the dialog from the briefing session:


TAIN
(to Garak)
Our plan is to wait until we've
entered orbit of the Founders' planet,
then decloak and begin a massive
bombardment.

LOVOK
Computer analysis indicates that the
planet's crust will be destroyed
within one hour, and the mantle within
five.

GARAK
That should more than take care of
the Founders...

TAIN
Yes, it should. Unless they have
some planetary defenses we don't
know about. And the only person
here who might know the answer to
that question is Mister Odo.


Also recall that this ship and the others in the fleet were manned by "combat veterans", so if Changeling Lovok had spoken a blatant lie, someone would have noticed, if not Tain and Garak.
-Mike

Sounds like to me the Founder homeworld bombardment was supposed to be a long drawn out affair instead of the few second long clip we got. Perhaps we should believe a production cost issue arose for TDiC and the necessary segment got cut way too short?

[SailorSaturn13]

They DID NOT finished the bombardement

[Mike DiCenso]

As SS13 correctly notes, the bombardment was not finished. It was cut short by the Dominion trap, which destroyed the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet before it could continue. Here's the dialog:

PILOT

The first barrage has hit the
surface...

TAIN
Effect?

PILOT
Thirty percent of the planetary crust
destroyed on opening volley...


Please note the highlighted use of the words "first barrage" and "opening volley".
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Hi all!

I'd like to refine the documentary dogma used for versuses.

Shouldn't we say that more than a documentary, we're actually dealing with a fictional documentary, which would actually be more accurate considering the medium?

I think it's likely. In such forms, the video is not necessarily genuine per se, but a recomposition of in-universe studios in order to represent as best as possible what the records tell. The records here being the dialogue, the script. The source in fact.

Should we dismiss the intent and the script because the guys on the end of the chain didn't manage to properly render the initial intent?

It's really a question of either favoring the sources, and thus being quite faithful and conservative, or embracing the latest version, walking forth and basing most of the evidence on visuals against script, if a contradiction occurs and remains unsolvable.