List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

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Praeothmin
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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:14 pm

Well, this part of your post, Mr. O.:
Many planetary shields do not cover the entire surface
Which can easily lead us to assume then that some single shields do cover the entire surface of the planet...

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:21 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Well, this part of your post, Mr. O.:
Many planetary shields do not cover the entire surface
Which can easily lead us to assume then that some single shields do cover the entire surface of the planet...
Same goes with the quote Lucky provided:

"Such shields usually protect only a limited area."

Thing is, finding an example of a single shield generator that is known to protect an entire planet of the size of Earth, more or less, is very hard. There's none AFAIK.

Even Coruscant seems to use a patchwork of shields to form a complete skin, and perhaps even more to form the alleged multi-skin shield pattern if we go by certain sources which attempted to claim such a design for Coruscant during the end of the Clone Wars -- which might be contradicted by the AOTC novelization which mentions debris from the space battle falling on Coruscant, while warsies often claimed that both fleets were trapped between two layers, which wouldn't be possible since if debris could hit the ground, then so could weapon fire, and in simple theory, those super powerful ICS-pumped guns would easily reach the shield generators even if not firing at them directly. That is, after all, the beautiful side effect of guns rated at near teratons at the very least, up to near petatons for the Venators.

We should assume, then, that a full coverage is only achievable on small stellar bodies like small moons (based on ROTJ and a DS-II "nearly twice as big" as the first one, now rated at 160 km by the EU, we could get a shield able to cover a sphere about 300 km wide tops).

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Picard » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:06 am

Wait... Venator's guns are rated at near petatons? I thought that was ship's total (non-canon) power output?

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:33 am

Supposedly the Acclamators and Venators can divert most of their reactor power into shields or weapons.
-Mike

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:09 am

Lucky wrote:
Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology ISBN 978-0-345-44903-0 Page: 113 wrote: Most shield generators are built on planetary surfaces, where they can be easily defended by anti-infantry and anti-vehicle turrets. Such shields usually protect only a limited area. The Kuat Drive Yards DSS-02 planetary shields generator deployed by the Alliance on Hoth, for instance, covered an area about fiffty kilometers in diameter.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It is possible, after looking at that wookieepedia page on Coruscant, that The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia may confirm the full coverage is achieved with a patchwork of shield generators. The quote was provided years ago on this board but it wasn't determined if it was reliable or not.

There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground, although another way to understand the line is that even many shield generators do not cover the entire surface, which also works considering what we've seen, the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station included).

It also takes minutes to get a single generator running for good.

There are some bugs in the text display due to the age of those threads (2007), so here's a corrected version.

Alderaan, & problems with planetary shield claims:
Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p. 263-264 wrote: A World to Conquer

"Admiral Ozzel, believing the Rebels were unprepared to evacuate, felt that surprise would throw the Rebels into confusion. He brought the fleet out of hyperspace too close within the Hoth system. However, the Rebels were prepared with a planetary shield and significant hardware to resist an attack. This prevented recon units from scouting the system and a careful deployment of the fleet. To prevent any Rebels from escaping, the fleet was forced to maneuver quickly and without proper planning."

[...]

Invasion

"While you will not be responsible for ground invasions, it will be necessary for you to assist and understand them. The first and most useful task you can perform is battling a planetary shield. These devices can reach full strength in only a few minutes. They consume energy at very high rates and are expensive to leave on all the time. They are usually only turned on when hostile forces arrive. If you can destroy a planetary shield generator in the few minutes it takes to fully raise the shield itself, your mission and the army's mission will be far easier.

"Many planetary shields do not cover the entire surface -- they protect only the important locations such as major cities or Rebel bases. When faced with a strong shield, your only option is to land troops outside the shield and proceed underneath it, without orbital strike support, and attack the shield generator. This was the only phase of the Battle of Hoth that succeeded. The leading AT-ATs arrived at the generator taking heavy losses only because of unorthodox Rebel snowspeeder tactics. Imperial AT-ATs successfully destroyed the generator on schedule, though many Rebel transports still escaped due to poor fleet organization in orbit."
Notice that the same source also says that jumping out of hyperspace far from an enemy planet (contrary to what happened to Hoth) allows the fleet to run a reconnaissance operation, nothing else. No mention of supposedly long range bombardment. Ships still have to approach the target, and decide between an objective orbit (sort of geosynchronous position above main targets) or a siege orbit (deployment of the fleet to cover the targeted planet as much as possible).
We also learn that Star Destroyers in orbit couldn't spot submarines until they rose to the surface.

From the same thread, you can get that interesting quotation about the expected size of shield generators on Coruscant post ROTJ:
Starships of the Galaxy, Saga Ed., p. 138 wrote: Lusankya
[...]
The Lusankya was covered in a superframe of girders and electronics, then lowered onto Coruscant disguised as a massive planetary shield generator an its repulsorlift cradle. The fact that a Super Star Destroyer was at the heart of the "generator" was kept secret, allowing the Lusankya to serve as a secret prison facility.
The peace of information I was pointing out was the 50 kilometer diameter of the Hoth shield, and how that really would not provide the level of protection described in the Empire Strikes Back.

What I believe 200 gigatons would do.
Image Basically the ground under the rebel base on Hoth would be removed.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Trinoya » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:04 am

Lucky wrote:
What I believe 200 gigatons would do.
Image Basically the ground under the rebel base on Hoth would be removed.

1 gigaton would destroy an area from roughly DC to Toronto... your estimate may be a bit low.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:33 pm

Well, there's the immediate destruction, and then there are the Firestorms caused by the initial explosion...

Roughly the same area Dooku's ship accelerating would have destroyed in AotC... ;-)

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:54 pm

Good god. I've been quoted on something I typed and I can't even understand what I was trying to say!
Me, before the tweak wrote: There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground, although another way to understand the line is that even many shield generators do not cover the entire surface, which also works considering what we've seen, the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station included).
Again, Me, after the tweak wrote: There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground with their shield, although another way to understand the line (from the The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology) is that even many shield generators may not cover the entire planet's surface even if working together and their shields are combined, which is at least verified with what we've seen of the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station altogether).

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:52 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Good god. I've been quoted on something I typed and I can't even understand what I was trying to say!
Me, before the tweak wrote: There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground, although another way to understand the line is that even many shield generators do not cover the entire surface, which also works considering what we've seen, the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station included).
Again, Me, after the tweak wrote: There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground with their shield, although another way to understand the line (from the The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology) is that even many shield generators may not cover the entire planet's surface even if working together and their shields are combined, which is at least verified with what we've seen of the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station altogether).
TNEGTW&T implies that a single shield can cover an entire planet in theory at least, but such a things is extremely rare if done at all.

There is an old peace of fluff that out right states Alderaan did not have a shield at all. Dark Empire Source Book, page: 125 according to my notes.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:01 am

Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology
ISBN: 978-0-345-44903-0
Page: 6
The DH-17 which was used extensively by the Rebel Alliance infantry forces during the Galactic Civil War, is typical of most blaster pistols. The DH-17 is meant for shipboard combat: its bolts are capable of penetrating stormtrooper armor, but it can't breach the hull of a starship. It can also be modified to fire in short bursts (which drain the power pack in about twenty seconds), and the weapons sturdy construction enables its use on hostile worlds such as the ice planet Hoth.


The most common blaster variants are the heavy blaster, the sporting blaster, and the hold-out blaster. The heavy blaster is designed for extreme close-quarters combat. The bolts are accurate only at ranges of less than twenty-five meters, but they cause incredible damage compared to most blaster rifles, and can easily penetrate personal deflector shields and armor. Heavy blasters require much more energy to fuel their more powerful bolts; often their power pack may contain enough energy for only twenty-five shots. Han Solo's DL-44 is a heavily modified weapon: the blaster includes a motion sensor scope and efficient galven circuitry the allows the pistol to deal more damage without draining additional energy.


This has got to be the lowest showing of Star Wars starship hulls in all of Star wars. Who would have thought that Han Solo could kill Star Destroyers by leaning out a window and firing his heavy blaster?^_^

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:53 pm

Lucky, the quote states:
but it can't breach the hull of a starship
"Can't", as in, cannot, incapable of...
So no, Han could not shoot down a starship with his Blaster...

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:16 am

Praeothmin wrote:Lucky, the quote states:
but it can't breach the hull of a starship
"Can't", as in, cannot, incapable of...
So no, Han could not shoot down a starship with his Blaster...
Read the quotes again.
The DH-17 is meant for shipboard combat: its bolts are capable of penetrating stormtrooper armor, but it can't breach the hull of a starship.
The description of the DH-17 states it is capable of defeating stormtrooper armor, but will not breach a starship's hull. This tells us that there are blasters of similar size that can breach starship hulls.

The heavy blaster is designed for extreme close-quarters combat. The bolts are accurate only at ranges of less than twenty-five meters, but they cause incredible damage compared to most blaster rifles, and can easily penetrate personal deflector shields and armor. Heavy blasters require much more energy to fuel their more powerful bolts; often their power pack may contain enough energy for only twenty-five shots. Han Solo's DL-44 is a heavily modified weapon: the blaster includes a motion sensor scope and efficient galven circuitry the allows the pistol to deal more damage without draining additional energy.
Here we get a description of Heavy Blasters. The heavy blasters are clearly more powerful, and the type that would be a threat to a starships hull as the first quote describes.

If the description of the DH-17 isn't talking about heavy blasters being a threat to starship hulls then I have no idea as to what it is talking about.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:55 pm

No, it doesn't...
Your interpretation means it does, but the quote doesn't state that at all...

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by sonofccn » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Lucky wrote:Read the quotes again.
The DH-17 is meant for shipboard combat: its bolts are capable of penetrating stormtrooper armor, but it can't breach the hull of a starship.
The description of the DH-17 states it is capable of defeating stormtrooper armor, but will not breach a starship's hull. This tells us that there are blasters of similar size that can breach starship hulls.
Well strictly speaking, from that quote, all it tells us is the DH-17 is powerful enough to pierce Stormtrooper armor without piercing the "Hull of a starship". How much more powerful a blaster would have to be and its size in comparison to DH-17 is left unstated. Further since the context is of internal fights between boarding parties there is also the question by what exactly is meant by can't breach the hull. Do they mean a point blank direct hit on the hull, an inner bulkhead or a stray shot which means traveling through several meters at least of metal plate and cushioning air driving way up the "breaching" energy above what is needed to kill a Stormtrooper.
Lucky wrote:Here we get a description of Heavy Blasters. The heavy blasters are clearly more powerful, and the type that would be a threat to a starships hull as the first quote describes.

If the description of the DH-17 isn't talking about heavy blasters being a threat to starship hulls then I have no idea as to what it is talking about.
Well, strictly speaking again, it is talking about how heavy blasters can pierce personal deflector shields and armor, presumbly like Stormtrooper armor but that's only my guess, the former of which presumbly a DH-17 couldn't or have trouble with. It is possible Heavy Blasters are powerful enough to breach starship's hulls, since they are more powerful than a DH-17, but the quote doesn't mandate that they be able to.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by General Donner » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:21 pm

Pretty much what I'd think as well. We can't infer there are blasters of that size that can breach bulkheads or hull armor because it says one can not do so. Especially as that rarely shows up in the fluff elsewhere; it'd be a fairly hefty discrepancy.

Now that I think of it, though, there are some rare hand blasters in the more obscure EU that can be pretty disproportionately powerful. in Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon, for example, one is said to be almost as heavy-hitting as starship-grade weapons.
Beneath the long thick plumage of his stubby left arm -- a vestigial wing useless for flight long ages before his people had chipped their first crude stone tools -- Fybot wore a small energy-projector that was something of an advance on Bassi Vobah's openly sported blaster. Half the military weapon's size, it had six times the power, coming close, in theory, to one of the modules of Lando's four-barreled quad-gun.
The quad gun set is the Millenium Falcon's weapons; this story takes place at a time when Lando owned the ship. So even if that doesn't, strictly speaking, support Lucky, it does seem to be yet another strike against kiloton-plus fighter weapons. As I doubt anyone would have much reason to want a hand weapon for somewhat close combat with more boom in it than most cruise missiles.

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