List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

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mojo
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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by mojo » Sun May 13, 2012 7:11 am

HOLY SHIT

IT'S THE SAME OLD FUCKING ARGUMENT

AGAIN

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Sun May 13, 2012 11:38 am

Well, the atom's right, this thread was about EU sources incompatible with the ICS...
If Chee states that the ICS is the reference in C-Canon, then it should be...

Or people could do what other people had done many times over GL's statements over his version of SW:
Ignore it, and continue to argue... :)

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 15, 2012 3:00 pm

the atom wrote:
mojo wrote:seriously, though, one of the most annoying things about swst for me (and what drove oragahn INSANE) was the fact that he would respond to 'hey, man, we've debated (insert point here) to death and this board is in agreement that (insert conclusion here), so without the benefit of new evidence or, at the very least, new arguments, further debate is pointless here at sfj' with 'i disagree with that conclusion, and i base my own conclusion on this evidence: (insert exact evidence which has just been stated to be useless as far as sfj is concerned).'

is this so hard to comprehend? why do we have to keep rebooting the same exact arguments and rebuttals for all eternity? what is the point? are we really doing the leland/lucas canon debate again? is the evidence for either side somehow more persuasive the 3,000,000,012th time you read it? jesus!
There difference here is that the person who runs Starwars canon has made a pretty recent and decisive ruling about the ICS firepower numbers that has just rendered nearly all EU quibbling and rationalizing (a.k.a this and nearly every other board's primary argument against ICS) totally irrelevant. This isn't the same argument/evidence. This is game over.
He has made not such ruling.
He's said "go for the ICS if you want firepower numbers", because since it's an officially supported book precisely ordered by LFL to be written for being that technical, it's logical for him to point to the book that is known to contain a plenty of those numbers. It's also faster to go to the ICS, which is canon, than to go pick one reference at a time in a gazillion different sources.
Now, if those figures were problematic as a whole, they'd have to decanonize the book, and that, they don't want to for the moment, or ever. For the moment they keep them. Just as much as they keep other sources canon. So it's the same stalemate that's going on since 2002.
All of which doesn't really matter. He has never said that the ICS were of superior canon at the C level. That's wishful thinking.
You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of that. By doing that, Chee would even be completely contradicting his former statements about how the policy works, and would point out that the policy has clearly changed.
I consider his advisement is the same as if you wanted to know more about planets and worlds of the EU and he'd tell you go read the Atlas, or if you wanted to know more about characters and he'd say go read the Essential Guide to VIPs & Random Peoples, you know.

So, if you really want to win anything here, come back with a CLEAR statement that the canon hierarchy has changed and that the ICS numbers are superior, in canonical value, to anything else found in other C-canon sources.

Without such a statement, you have nothing on your hands.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 15, 2012 3:06 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the atom's right, this thread was about EU sources incompatible with the ICS...
If Chee states that the ICS is the reference in C-Canon, then it should be...
He has not said that. He just said go for the ICS first. Saxtonites read it as Chee saying that its content is of superior value and reliability. But there's not such a thing said in his statement.

So until they come back with a clear statement that the canon policy has definitely changed as much as to now have to consider ICS information superior to all C-canon level information, we're not going anywhere.
Such a change would mean it's superior to the Inside the World, the old journals, all the RPG guides, the Visual Dictionaries, the Essential Guides, the Atlas, the Insiders, the Encyclopedia, books, comics, video game backgrounds, etc.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 15, 2012 3:12 pm

...
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Tue May 15, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Praeothmin » Tue May 15, 2012 3:14 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:Well, the atom's right, this thread was about EU sources incompatible with the ICS...
If Chee states that the ICS is the reference in C-Canon, then it should be...
He has not said that. He just said go for the ICS first. Saxtonites read it as Chee saying that its content is of superior value and reliability. But there's not such a thing said in his statement.
Why go for it first if it's not a reference?
I always go to reference source material when checking something, unless there is no clear reference...
He clearly sated that between two C-Canon sources, he'd go to the ICS first, thus the ICS seems to be his reference book...

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 15, 2012 3:20 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:Well, the atom's right, this thread was about EU sources incompatible with the ICS...
If Chee states that the ICS is the reference in C-Canon, then it should be...
He has not said that. He just said go for the ICS first. Saxtonites read it as Chee saying that its content is of superior value and reliability. But there's not such a thing said in his statement.
Why go for it first if it's not a reference?
I always go to reference source material when checking something, unless there is no clear reference...
He clearly sated that between two C-Canon sources, he'd go to the ICS first, thus the ICS seems to be his reference book...
He has not clearly stated his criterion of reference, did he?
People already assume it's a reference based on a superior canonical value. What about the idea that it's a reference because it's a book known around the whole world for containing a shit lot of such numbers, hey?
Does it even make sense to you to have Chee say to the other bloke oh yeah, if you need firepower numbers, go look for page 201, chapter 3, in the third opus in the Slippery Of Force Turd series?
Ahem??

I want a clear statement that has him saying that the firepower numbers in the ICS invalidate those found anywhere else in the EU.
I don't think it's too much to ask for, considering the remarkable claim made by the opposition.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 15, 2012 3:25 pm

the atom wrote:Here's a tidbit of note regarding the ICS and canon precedence (explicitly regarding firepower) from the head of the holocron, Leland Chee himself:
[Ulic]: Hi Mr Chee, I was wondering if I could ask a question related to something you mentioned on your old Dark Horse forum thread; you confirmed that the Incredible Cross Section firepower stats were still considered canon, but I noticed that X-Wing: Isard's Revenge mentioned capital ships firing "terajoules of coherent light", which is significantly lower than the gigatons of firepower the ICS mentions; are these firepower figures from X-Wing: Isard's Revenge still considered canon, and if so how would the Holocron reconcile the two, for example, if an author requested starship firepower figures from the database?

[Leland Chee]: Cross-Sections would still be the first place I'd look when determining firepower.
Note the bold.
When you're in need of inspiration for some chicken-based recipes, do you reach for your 100 Best Chicken Recipes book, or do you try to put your hand on that March or May, wait, perhaps August 2009 TV program guide which had a chicken recipe on the top left corner of page 32 or 34 ? or was it a TV guide - shit, was it even using chicken, or was it beef?

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by User1663 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:48 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:He has made not such ruling.
He's said "go for the ICS if you want firepower numbers", because since it's an officially supported book precisely ordered by LFL to be written for being that technical, it's logical for him to point to the book that is known to contain a plenty of those numbers. It's also faster to go to the ICS, which is canon, than to go pick one reference at a time in a gazillion different sources.
Now, if those figures were problematic as a whole, they'd have to decanonize the book, and that, they don't want to for the moment, or ever. For the moment they keep them. Just as much as they keep other sources canon. So it's the same stalemate that's going on since 2002.
All of which doesn't really matter. He has never said that the ICS were of superior canon at the C level. That's wishful thinking.
You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of that. By doing that, Chee would even be completely contradicting his former statements about how the policy works, and would point out that the policy has clearly changed.
I consider his advisement is the same as if you wanted to know more about planets and worlds of the EU and he'd tell you go read the Atlas, or if you wanted to know more about characters and he'd say go read the Essential Guide to VIPs & Random Peoples, you know.

So, if you really want to win anything here, come back with a CLEAR statement that the canon hierarchy has changed and that the ICS numbers are superior, in canonical value, to anything else found in other C-canon sources.

Without such a statement, you have nothing on your hands.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Any such contradictions are explicitly dealt with on a case by case basis. The canon tier system is not a set of laws, and if they were you'd have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.

If you want to clarify the matter further then why don't you e-mail Chee (or somebody else who works there) yourself?

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:04 am

the atom wrote:Here's a tidbit of note regarding the ICS and canon precedence (explicitly regarding firepower) from the head of the holocron, Leland Chee himself:
[Ulic]: Hi Mr Chee, I was wondering if I could ask a question related to something you mentioned on your old Dark Horse forum thread; you confirmed that the Incredible Cross Section firepower stats were still considered canon, but I noticed that X-Wing: Isard's Revenge mentioned capital ships firing "terajoules of coherent light", which is significantly lower than the gigatons of firepower the ICS mentions; are these firepower figures from X-Wing: Isard's Revenge still considered canon, and if so how would the Holocron reconcile the two, for example, if an author requested starship firepower figures from the database?

[Leland Chee]: Cross-Sections would still be the first place I'd look when determining firepower.
Note the bold.
Link to the original page please. I doubt you are making things up, but I want to see the source.

This looks like a non answer by Chee. He appears to be refusing to say one source over rules the other. I highly doubt Chee has a firm grasp of the energies talked about in the ICS books.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Lucky » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:06 am

Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology ISBN 978-0-345-44903-0 Page: 113 wrote: Most shield generators are built on planetary surfaces, where they can be easily defended by anti-infantry and anti-vehicle turrets. Such shields usually protect only a limited area. The Kuat Drive Yards DSS-02 planetary shields generator deployed by the Alliance on Hoth, for instance, covered an area about fiffty kilometers in diameter.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by sonofccn » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:53 pm

Lucky wrote:
Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology ISBN 978-0-345-44903-0 Page: 113 wrote: Most shield generators are built on planetary surfaces, where they can be easily defended by anti-infantry and anti-vehicle turrets. Such shields usually protect only a limited area. The Kuat Drive Yards DSS-02 planetary shields generator deployed by the Alliance on Hoth, for instance, covered an area about fiffty kilometers in diameter.
Good find there.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:45 pm

That's a very good find, Lucky. In fact, 50 km diameter for the shield fits in very well with many of the fan calcs here on SFJN and elsewhere that have been done over the years.
-Mike

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:49 pm

the atom wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:He has made not such ruling.
He's said "go for the ICS if you want firepower numbers", because since it's an officially supported book precisely ordered by LFL to be written for being that technical, it's logical for him to point to the book that is known to contain a plenty of those numbers. It's also faster to go to the ICS, which is canon, than to go pick one reference at a time in a gazillion different sources.
Now, if those figures were problematic as a whole, they'd have to decanonize the book, and that, they don't want to for the moment, or ever. For the moment they keep them. Just as much as they keep other sources canon. So it's the same stalemate that's going on since 2002.
All of which doesn't really matter. He has never said that the ICS were of superior canon at the C level. That's wishful thinking.
You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of that. By doing that, Chee would even be completely contradicting his former statements about how the policy works, and would point out that the policy has clearly changed.
I consider his advisement is the same as if you wanted to know more about planets and worlds of the EU and he'd tell you go read the Atlas, or if you wanted to know more about characters and he'd say go read the Essential Guide to VIPs & Random Peoples, you know.

So, if you really want to win anything here, come back with a CLEAR statement that the canon hierarchy has changed and that the ICS numbers are superior, in canonical value, to anything else found in other C-canon sources.

Without such a statement, you have nothing on your hands.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Any such contradictions are explicitly dealt with on a case by case basis. The canon tier system is not a set of laws, and if they were you'd have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.
They use the canonical hierarchy as part of the tools to know which way to go. If they cannot find a solution to their problem, the hierarchy may hopefully solve that if the contradiction is inter-level.
If all contradictions were dealt with without paying attention to the canonical policy, there wouldn't be any. However there clearly is one but your claim also clearly suggests that we forget about it -- because if we don't, then we haven't moved a iota from how we used to deal with EU material.
If you want to clarify the matter further then why don't you e-mail Chee (or somebody else who works there) yourself?
Why should I? You're the one making the new claim. I stick to the simple rule that all sources at the same level are of equal canonical value.

If you'd ask him about characters or places, he's surely point you at guides which largely deal with that. It wouldn't mean they'd be of any higher canonical value.
That, thus far, is your interpretation.
If you believe Chee is breaking the rules and disregarding the Holocron's canon policy, it is up to you to ask him why this happens and what LP's heads think of this.

Thus far, all I have seen him do was point at a book that contains much more information relevant to that kind of data. I believe my analogy in my former post was explicit enough.

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Re: List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:30 pm

Lucky wrote:
Star Wars The New Essential Guide To Weapons & Technology ISBN 978-0-345-44903-0 Page: 113 wrote: Most shield generators are built on planetary surfaces, where they can be easily defended by anti-infantry and anti-vehicle turrets. Such shields usually protect only a limited area. The Kuat Drive Yards DSS-02 planetary shields generator deployed by the Alliance on Hoth, for instance, covered an area about fiffty kilometers in diameter.
It is possible, after looking at that wookieepedia page on Coruscant, that The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia may confirm the full coverage is achieved with a patchwork of shield generators. The quote was provided years ago on this board but it wasn't determined if it was reliable or not.

There's also that quotation I had provided some years ago, proving that "planetary shield" didn't mean a shield covering a planet, but a shield built on a planet and covering a limited area. It is implied that some generators might be able to cover the entire ground, although another way to understand the line is that even many shield generators do not cover the entire surface, which also works considering what we've seen, the areas covered by known shield generators (including Endor's entire shielded volume, ground, space and station included).

It also takes minutes to get a single generator running for good.

There are some bugs in the text display due to the age of those threads (2007), so here's a corrected version.

Alderaan, & problems with planetary shield claims:
Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p. 263-264 wrote: A World to Conquer

"Admiral Ozzel, believing the Rebels were unprepared to evacuate, felt that surprise would throw the Rebels into confusion. He brought the fleet out of hyperspace too close within the Hoth system. However, the Rebels were prepared with a planetary shield and significant hardware to resist an attack. This prevented recon units from scouting the system and a careful deployment of the fleet. To prevent any Rebels from escaping, the fleet was forced to maneuver quickly and without proper planning."

[...]

Invasion

"While you will not be responsible for ground invasions, it will be necessary for you to assist and understand them. The first and most useful task you can perform is battling a planetary shield. These devices can reach full strength in only a few minutes. They consume energy at very high rates and are expensive to leave on all the time. They are usually only turned on when hostile forces arrive. If you can destroy a planetary shield generator in the few minutes it takes to fully raise the shield itself, your mission and the army's mission will be far easier.

"Many planetary shields do not cover the entire surface -- they protect only the important locations such as major cities or Rebel bases. When faced with a strong shield, your only option is to land troops outside the shield and proceed underneath it, without orbital strike support, and attack the shield generator. This was the only phase of the Battle of Hoth that succeeded. The leading AT-ATs arrived at the generator taking heavy losses only because of unorthodox Rebel snowspeeder tactics. Imperial AT-ATs successfully destroyed the generator on schedule, though many Rebel transports still escaped due to poor fleet organization in orbit."
Notice that the same source also says that jumping out of hyperspace far from an enemy planet (contrary to what happened to Hoth) allows the fleet to run a reconnaissance operation, nothing else. No mention of supposedly long range bombardment. Ships still have to approach the target, and decide between an objective orbit (sort of geosynchronous position above main targets) or a siege orbit (deployment of the fleet to cover the targeted planet as much as possible).
We also learn that Star Destroyers in orbit couldn't spot submarines until they rose to the surface.

From the same thread, you can get that interesting quotation about the expected size of shield generators on Coruscant post ROTJ:
Starships of the Galaxy, Saga Ed., p. 138 wrote: Lusankya
[...]
The Lusankya was covered in a superframe of girders and electronics, then lowered onto Coruscant disguised as a massive planetary shield generator an its repulsorlift cradle. The fact that a Super Star Destroyer was at the heart of the "generator" was kept secret, allowing the Lusankya to serve as a secret prison facility.

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