List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:51 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: Ah, I see that now. Actually, the primary source is "Vector Prime" with two decidedly sub-ICS incidents in it. As for how "in-line" the two incidents are with one another, I think they are within a reasonable ballpark range of each other, and both put the combined weapons firepower of an ISD in the low single-digit gigaton range.
Not even so. With low gigaton firepower, the ISD would have ample time within those hours to break the moon into insignificant bits which would be consumed in the atmosphere before they could do anything.
The ISD would have enough firepower, notably with its medium and light batteries to take down the fragments and pulverize them.
It would still be better than letting the whole moon crash as a whole.

A low gigaton estimation is not reasonnable, even for a high end.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:50 am

That largely depends on how the breaking up of the asteroid occurs. The SDN asteroid destruction calculator assumes, for instance, that the fragmentation of the asteroid will be as though an explosive were perfectly placed and dedonated at it's center for maximum effect.

Obviously this is not the case, nor is the fact that 20 km wide Dobido is not very likely to be a sphere, dispite what the comic books show. Dobido is, suprisingly enough, of roughly equal mass as a sphere of all-granite rock would be; 10e12 metric tons versus 9.76e12 metric tons. So all things considered, and not knowing the dynamics of the moon's breakup under a Star Destroyer's bombardment, at least 1 gigaton for a very upper end estimate is not so unreasonable. To be really fair, though, we may even choose to interpert Han's "the falling pieces would devastate Sernpidal" part of his statement to mean that the SD's initial bombardment might knock still substantial pieces of the moon down to the planet's surface. That leaves open still the possibility of yeilds up to around 8-10 gigatons.

Another way to look at is if the broad side of an SD is around 1-10 gigatons, that would mean shattering a volume of 4.190e12 cubic meters into chunks of around 10 meters or 523 meters cubed. Dividing that into nearly 42 trillion cubic meters gives us over 80 billion pieces of Dobido for the SD to now have to chase down! All of that expanding out away from the original moon's diameter at fairly high velocity! I think in the best case scenario, assuming 100 guns firing every second and all guns having exactly equal firepower, it would take 2.5 years to hunt down every 10 meter piece and vaporize it!

Of course there's all kinds of factors that could change those numbers. So I think that a few gigatons on the upper extreme end of SD firepower is not too far off.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:48 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:That largely depends on how the breaking up of the asteroid occurs. The SDN asteroid destruction calculator assumes, for instance, that the fragmentation of the asteroid will be as though an explosive were perfectly placed and dedonated at it's center for maximum effect.

Obviously this is not the case, nor is the fact that 20 km wide Dobido is not very likely to be a sphere, dispite what the comic books show. Dobido is, suprisingly enough, of roughly equal mass as a sphere of all-granite rock would be; 10e12 metric tons versus 9.76e12 metric tons. So all things considered, and not knowing the dynamics of the moon's breakup under a Star Destroyer's bombardment, at least 1 gigaton for a very upper end estimate is not so unreasonable.
But how do you use that one gigaton exactly?
To be really fair, though, we may even choose to interpert Han's "the falling pieces would devastate Sernpidal" part of his statement to mean that the SD's initial bombardment might knock still substantial pieces of the moon down to the planet's surface. That leaves open still the possibility of yeilds up to around 8-10 gigatons.
With several turbolasers on each side, the Star Destroyer would have ample power to shoot down the biggest debris.

This is not even counting the traditionnal load of a SD, the missiles the EU counts and the smaller crafts it carries, themselves armed with weapons such as beam cannons and missiles.

Of course, now, if you believe that their accuracy is deplorable to miss fragments at least 100 meters wide...
Another way to look at is if the broad side of an SD is around 1-10 gigatons, that would mean shattering a volume of 4.190e12 cubic meters into chunks of around 10 meters or 523 meters cubed. Dividing that into nearly 42 trillion cubic meters gives us over 80 billion pieces of Dobido for the SD to now have to chase down! All of that expanding out away from the original moon's diameter at fairly high velocity! I think in the best case scenario, assuming 100 guns firing every second and all guns having exactly equal firepower, it would take 2.5 years to hunt down every 10 meter piece and vaporize it!

Of course there's all kinds of factors that could change those numbers. So I think that a few gigatons on the upper extreme end of SD firepower is not too far off.
-Mike
The SD would make a stupid move by firing guns at full power I think. They'd better spam the asteroid with low kiloton shots than try to blast too much at once and end creating more trouble.

There are those hours which Han had in mind. Solo wasn't even sure that with such time, the SD would have enough firepower to blast the asteroid.
Simply put, if the ISD was capble of gigaton shots, he'd have never doubted for one second the ship's ability to take the asteroid directly to the state of debris.
That the debris were another problem is irrevelant here, since Han doubted the ISD's ability to destroy the asteroid, with several hours to deal with it.

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Post by watchdog » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:39 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:I'am not sure you've included it, but the example in Heir to the Empire comic book as well as the original novel have a faux Millenium Falcon along with our heroes inside one of several craters blasted by ISD turbolasers whose size indicate decidedly sub-megaton energy yeilds.

Not just HttE, but several other comic book renderings seem to show kiloton or sub-kiloton yeilds for TLs.
-Mike
Which comic books those come from aren't labeled in that thread, not that I can see except for the first one. Rebellion #10 and Heir to the Empire comic book added to the list, though.
As you already know the first page is from Rebellion 10, after that I have a page from the Heir to the Empire comic and a page from the Last Command comic. Unfortunatly I dont remember what specific comic the last two pics were, it was one of the "dark times" comics, I'd need to see the cover to know which. other comic examples I've posted can be found here; http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 9&start=15
That would be on page 2 ;
Shadows of the Empire: Evolution
Manditory retirement (X-wing comic TPB)
And on page 3;
Phantom affair (X-wing comic TPB)
Manditory retirement (better scans, more pages)

I doubt that you're going to find anything in the EU, old or new, that agrees with the self-serving calculations from the ICS. The info in the ICS was pretty obviously put in there to throw a bone to the warsies and allow them to 'win' the debate, the figures however are compleatly unsupported by every other piece of merchandise with the official Star Wars brand on it. The only place you will find ICS figures in official Star Wars is in the ICS; you wont find them in any movie, cartoon or made for TV movies, I can guarantee that you will not find it in any comic, the artist dont draw that type of stuff, and the only way you can find cooberating evidence of this stuff in the books is through circumsantial reasoning of various obscure bits. It's not just Trekkies that are anti-ICS, all the rest of Star Wars is anti-ICS too, you might as well just list all Star Wars novels as well as every comic book and other media (the original animated clone wars series for instance). Good luck though.

EDIT: Found the last unknown comic, Star Wars: Empire #35 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War ... el_Officer
That shows the star destoyer firing on the planet and the effects of a bombardment.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:29 pm

My little finger tells me that we're going to add The Clone Wars series very soon.

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Post by Enterprise E » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:30 pm

But will the Clone Wars series count as EU? I heard that it was above the EU, but below the movies and other "G level" canon.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:55 am

The TCW series may not be EU in the regular sense of the word, but it is still a source that is considered canon that does not agree (at least so far) with the AoTC: ICS on SW ship power and range.
-Mike

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Post by l33telboi » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:56 pm

Enterprise E wrote:But will the Clone Wars series count as EU? I heard that it was above the EU, but below the movies and other "G level" canon.
It's been specifically said that the Clone Wars series doesn't belong to the EU, and that it's instead part of Lucas's SW. It's officially T-canon, which is below G-canon, but above C-canon.

It's all in the canon article on wookipedia, along with the quotes and sources.

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:30 pm

I'm beginning to wonder if a side intent of the creators of TCW is to upset much of the established canon in the EU, and in fact frustrate the verses debate to the point of, well, pointlessness. A separate topic I intend to make right now.

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Post by l33telboi » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:55 pm

This thread has been a bit quiet as of late, even though I've stumbled across of number of sources that don't conform well with the ICS. Still, I thought it was time to post some more stuff.

Here's a page from the Legacy comic series, issue #17, and the interesting bit is about turbolasers on the Stardestroyers they use during that period of time. Granted the firepower could've been dialed down... though it wouldn't make much sense. The Sith lord standing on the bridge there was suspicious about the region and thought he could sense Jedi, which is why he's firing at the temple. Would make sense to crank up the guns to max if you want to make absolutely sure to kill anything there. They're also obviously using the main batteries.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:06 pm

It is logical that with a Sith on the bridge, pissed off and ordering you to level and burn a temple to destroy Jedi he can smell, but whom your sensors failed to pick, you're not going to take any chance at a piss poor shot. Hell, pouring the necessary teratons here would surely impress the Dark bloke and show him your resolution.

On the other hand, maybe it was arrogance from the officer to think a dialed down regular blast would be plain enough.
Maybe he didn't believe the Sith guy, or maybe he literally was a traitor.

This ship is a Pellaeon-class, quite tough and powerful.

Was this temple on Ossus made of any special stone?
Did they plan on looting something down there after that?

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:32 pm

Another note; at that time, we still have Predator-class TIE fighters blast out massive chunks off the armoured hull of capital warships with their sole energy cannons.

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Post by l33telboi » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:08 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Was this temple on Ossus made of any special stone?
Not that I know.
Did they plan on looting something down there after that?
I don't think so, they were there to find the Jedi and nothing more. Though it's fair to warn you that I haven't read the whole thing yet, so there could be some upcoming revelations.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 pm

Given that they did completely blow up the temple with several TL shots, it's reasonably safe to say that there was not all that much that the temple offered them that they showed little, if any in the way of reservation over it's destruction. So unless there are some forthcoming revelations, I'd have to place this event in the ICS-contradiction category.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:36 am

Straightly borrowed from the ICS poll thread at SBC:
Me wrote: While I'm not sure this bump brought anything, I feel inclined to provide the following data about the often quoted destruction of Caamas:
Coruscant and the Core Worlds, p.61 wrote: Shield Generator Stations
Being a peaceful species, the Caamasi lacked any armies. Instead, they focused their attention on planetary defense, relying on a powerful shield generator. The planet had sixteen separate shield generator stations situated at equidistant locations on the equator. Each station was located deep underground, and each boasted a complex security system.
During the desctruion of Caamas, Bothan operatives infiltrated the shield generator stations and sabotaged the power supply, crippling the shield. During the attack, most of the stations were destroyed, but at least one is mostly intact. Station number 14, although still hidden an inoperative, remains relatively unscathed. Even the workers at Bothan Debris, Inc., do not suspect it contains clues relating to the Bothan involvement, including an insane resident.
Some Animals survived, as some Caamasi. Some plants possibly did so as well. An underground shield station was relatively intact. The oceans were not vapourized, far from it, and the Jedi Temple was only ruined.

Oh, and that's what was left of the surface:

Image

Unknown fleet size, unknown duration.
I also had the opportunity to grab the whole Scavenger Hunt, the small expansion campaign book from WEG, featuring the Dankayo incident, and there surely is matter to think about the mendacious interpretation we keep getting serving with.
Although as far as I'm concerned, I already dealt with Dankayo at lengths at SBC, in a BDZ/ICS thread which is not closed, but now old.
But as you'll see, not only the book itself seems to be lost between how to call the Rebel base, but there are many details, if you have never seen them, clearly showing that the devastation on the surface of the planet could have never been what the BDZ overkillers wish it was.

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