List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Post Reply
Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:05 pm

I intend to re-edit this first post to include sources mentioned and cited in this thread. The numerous conflicts between the ICS and higher canon have been explored at length elsewhere in numerous individual threads discussing each incident in terrible detail, so let's stick to the EU here.
I'll start with a few from the old Elim Garak Obsidian Order pages, but I suspect it's a woefully incomplete list now.
  • Displayed firepower too low:
    • X-Wing: Krytos Trap
    • X-Wing: The Bacta War
    • X-Wing: Isard's Revenge
    • X-Wing: Solo Command
    • Showdown at Centerpoint
    • Darksaber
    • Star Wars Rebellion #10
    • Heir to the Empire comic book
    • Star Wars: Empire #35
    • Star Wars: Legacy #17
    • Coruscant and the Core Worlds (Caamas details)
    • Allegiance
    • Dark Apprentice
    • Vector Prime
    • Inferno
    • Cutscenes from KotOR
  • Displayed FTL speeds too low:
    • Tyrant's Test
    • Heir to the Empire
  • Displayed STL speeds too low:
    • Vector Prime
  • Contradicts fighter/capital ship firepower relationship:
    • X-Wing: Isard's Revenge
    • X-Wing: The Bacta War
    • The Hutt Gambit
    • Dark Force Rising
    • Legacy of the Force: Betrayal
    • Shadows of the Empire: Evolution
    • Mandatory Retirement
    • Phantom Affair
  • Implicitly places firepower too low via comparison with targets/superweapons
    • Tyrant's Test
    • Vector Prime
    • Dark Empire Sourcebook
    • New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Weapons
    • Death Star
    • Tales of the Bounty Hunters (asteroids vs. bounty hunter guns)
  • Places a fusion/fission generator as the power source for a ship competitive in warfare, or otherwise causes problems for hypermatter reactors:
    • The Truce at Bakura
    • Star Wars Sourcebook
    • Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition
    • Rogue Planet (Death Star concept to use ice asteroids for fuel)
  • Weapons range:
    • X-Wing: Isard's Revenge
    • X-Wing: The Bacta War
    • X-Wing: The Krytos Trap
    • X-Wing: Solo Command
    • Tyrant's Test
  • Misc. other contradictions:
    • Shields too weak vs sun - "Heir to the Empire"
    • Cables used to transmit power - "Vision of the Future"
    • Implicit contradiction of army sizes via the number of clones - "Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic," Republic Commando books, Odds
    • Fuel consumption mismatch - SWRPG.
    • NJO: Star by Star - Vong cruiser blown up by 1,000 kg baradium warhead.
    • Titanium hull plating in Rogue Squadron.
    • Star Wars Technical Journal #2 provides a rare explicit yield figure which can't fit with the ICS - kiloton protons.
Last edited by Jedi Master Spock on Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:43 pm, edited 10 times in total.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:05 pm

Add to the Vector Prime list the fact that a Star Destroyer cannot destroy an ten trillion metric ton, 20 km asteroidal moon in 7 hours, still leaving behind substantial debris capable of threating an Earth-like planet.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:08 pm

Done. Also added mention of the fuel consumption contradiction, the clone numbers "fiasco," and the SWSB putting fusion generators in X-Wings. Doesn't the Essential Guide do likewise? I couldn't find the quote.

Also, isn't Death Star going to crop up somewhere?

EDIT: Added the Dark Empire Sourcebook and New Essential Guide to the superweapon/target comparison category, because these describe the effects of a superlaser blast being in the Saxtonian BDZ energy range and far eclipsing the capabilities of any Super Star Destroyer level conventional firepower.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:31 pm

You could mention the Death Star EU novel, listing some of the already mentioned firepower discrepancies, as well as how the superlaser mechanics are described as working versus ICS and pro-Wars speculations.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:17 pm

Is there an actual display of firepower in Death Star of anything other than the superlaser? I'm forgetting. Added it to the comparison sublisting; also added Legacy of the Force: Betrayal based on continued traditional fighters-attacking-capital-ships-successfully tradition using conc missiles that are displayed in the same novel to be very sub-GT.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:17 pm

I'am not sure you've included it, but the example in Heir to the Empire comic book as well as the original novel have a faux Millenium Falcon along with our heroes inside one of several craters blasted by ISD turbolasers whose size indicate decidedly sub-megaton energy yeilds.

Not just HttE, but several other comic book renderings seem to show kiloton or sub-kiloton yeilds for TLs.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:20 pm

I have that piece of scan of one of the X-wing engines showing that it has a fission chamber (SW sourcebook).
It quite varies, see. That said, I have that other scan, XWSW chronicles, that points out a "(vapor?) fusion chamber" behind R2.

The DS novel... I went into that a lot recently at SB.com. While I noticed that most of the discussion focused on the large lake/small sea point, which is the second half of the sentence, people largely ignored the first half, talking about scorching a city or two, which still was above what a SD could do even when firing all its hardware and all it has (possibly implying percharged guns).

It seems it mirrors the line from the rots book.

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:22 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:I'am not sure you've included it, but the example in Heir to the Empire comic book as well as the original novel have a faux Millenium Falcon along with our heroes inside one of several craters blasted by ISD turbolasers whose size indicate decidedly sub-megaton energy yeilds.

Not just HttE, but several other comic book renderings seem to show kiloton or sub-kiloton yeilds for TLs.
-Mike
Which comic books those come from aren't labeled in that thread, not that I can see except for the first one. Rebellion #10 and Heir to the Empire comic book added to the list, though.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:51 pm

I'am not entirely sure, beyond that some of them are from the Dark Horse SW comics. I recommend PMing Watchdog as he was the one who posted them in the first place.
-Mike

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:21 pm

During one of the vs debates I was, by accident, given a quote that pretty much says that a maximum of 21 gigatons would destroy a capital ship in one go:
Star by Star wrote:The missile's unexpected appearance confused the Yuuzhan Vong for only a few seconds. A flurry of plasma balls boiled out to intercept the missile, causing the droid brain to activate its counter-measure program. The missile diverted some of its power to shields and continued toward its target in an evasive corkscrew...

The Yuuzhan Vong gunners tried in vain for another few seconds to hit the spiraling target, then gave up and turned the ship's defense over to the shielding crews. A black dot appeared half a kilometer from the ship and sucked the missile toward its doom.

As soon as the droid brain detected the existence of a shielding singularity, it used its guidance laser to measure the distance to target, calculated that 98 percent of the mass fell within its blast radius, and triggered a thousand kilograms of baradium. The cruiser vanished in a blinding sphere of white fire that resembled, for a few seconds, a one-kilometer sun.
A one ton warhead of baradium is apparently very dangerous. And even if we assumed it's nearly perfect matter-to-energy conversion, you'd get a yield around 21 Gigatons.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:54 pm

Just out of curiosity, how are you estimating the 21 gigaton yeild for this event?
-Mike

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Post by 2046 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:12 pm

Either via scaling down a normal sun output (sorta wonky) or, more likely given the overall context, assuming perfect mass-energy conversion of a tonne of matter. Energy equalling mass times lightspeed squared, and all that.

e = 1000 x (299,792,458)^2
e = 89,875,517,873,681,764,000 J

89,875 petajoules . . . which at the proper explosive tonnage conversion, comes out to almost 21.5 gigatons.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5797
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:24 pm

Ah, I see. I wasn't quite sure if it was E=mc^2 he was using there. Still, it's very interesting that a captial ship in the EU can be taken out quite readily with an amount thousands of times less than the ICS estimates.
-Mike

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:45 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Ah, I see. I wasn't quite sure if it was E=mc^2 he was using there. Still, it's very interesting that a captial ship in the EU can be taken out quite readily with an amount thousands of times less than the ICS estimates.
-Mike
I have to point out though, that with this being sci-fi, it's quite plausible that we're talking about science violating matter that releases more energy then E=Mc^2 allows for. But, for me personally, this is very interesting because I've seen so many people harp on about conservation of energy and how it can't be breached that this will force them to make a double-standard. And if I’m in that debate, I’ll be more then happy to point it out.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:54 pm

Checking wooptidoopedia, they say baradium is used in thermal detonators, which are described as being fusion based explosives, most energy release as heat (due to the design of the weapon though).
The material seems also capable, when used properly, notably for thermal detonators, to create some kind of very tough smog (which makes sense for atmospheric explosions).

Here goes more references:

"In an attempt to counteract the instability of baradium-based thermal detonators, the Alliance to Restore the Republic developed the Thermal Well, which combined baradium with ytterbium, to produce a much more stable explosive compound. This burned at several thousand degrees celsius, and was capable of melting most objects within its blast radius.[9]

Lastly, while baradium was normally used as an explosive, depleted baradium was used instead to make dense, small-caliber bullets. The YVH series could carry a depleted-baradium pellet launcher capable of shredding yorik coral.[6] "

If it's fusion based, the yield could be around two orders of magnitude lower, and it would be necessary to consider that the blast may have been omnidirectional, and only a fraction of it hit the cruiser.

What kind of cruiser was it?
It couldn't be huge, since 98% of its mass would be within the blast radius (well, in space... there's probably some funky mechanic at play to keep the explosion tight). It should be around 500 meters long.

A Suuv Ban D'Krid is the closest thing I found. 720 meters long.

EDIT-T-T: The missile was detonated 500 m away from the ship. It couldn't be a big cruiser. What about those 30 meters long Yoric Vecs?

Post Reply