Estimating the Size of The Bre'el Moon

[Cocytus]

What kind of power is the Enterprise absorbing in "Descent?" The sun puts out about 4E26 joules/second, and has a surface area of 6E18 square meters. That's about 67 megajoules/second per square meter. If the E-D's shield was a sphere of 800 meters (I'm just guessing here) then the hemisphere of the shields facing the star would have an area of about a million square meters, thus receiving about 6.7E13 joules/second. If the Enterprise stayed in there for minute it would so far have received about 4E15 joules, about a megaton. So we get about a megaton per minute, 60 megatons per hour, and thus about 12 days before we hit 17 gigatons. These are very rough calculations I did off the cuff, based solely on power and surface area. Feel free to add/correct as you see fit, or point us to some better calcs.

I was just thinking about "Disaster," where the E-D hits a quantum filament. When Riker and Data, attempting to access Engineering, encounter an electric arc, Data proposes to block it with his body, to which Riker replies "there half a million amps in that arc." We don't know the voltage requirements of the E-D's equipment, but I gather they'd be massive. Let's say something like a million volts. Per W=VA the power running through the arc, at that current and voltage, would be 500 gigawatts. Playing with the voltage could give you enormous values. If the main sensor array, for example, requires a trillion volts, that's 5E17 watts. This is kind of pointless since we've never heard any voltage requirements for Starfleet technology, so I'm just rambling at this point. But it's interesting to consider.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I suspect the Cardassians probably have typically weaker reactors (hence lower top warp speeds) but build their weapons systems to put out a higher percentage of reactor power.

Something to keep in mind; a Nebula is almost four times the size of a Galor. It's a little larger (20-30%) than the Excelsior, a little smaller than the Akira, and less than half the size of the Ambassador. Something like twice the size of a Miranda.

Should it be a surprise that a Nebula can handle a Galor, or a Galor a Miranda? I would be surprised if an Ambassador couldn't handle one.

It takes something like three Vor'Chas to take down a Galaxy in a fair fight - the Galaxy being a little under five times as large. I would be surprised if two Galors could take a Nebula normally, and it's not a surprise that they used a whole wing of destroyers to ambush one.

[Jedi Master Spock]

What kind of power is the Enterprise absorbing in "Descent?" The sun puts out about 4E26 joules/second, and has a surface area of 6E18 square meters. That's about 67 megajoules/second per square meter. If the E-D's shield was a sphere of 800 meters (I'm just guessing here) then the hemisphere of the shields facing the star would have an area of about a million square meters, thus receiving about 6.7E13 joules/second.

Problem: Our sun has a surface temperature of about 6,000 C. The hull of the Enterprise in "Descent" was heated to... oh... about 12,000 degrees C. This wouldn't possibly be more than the temperature of the object heating it.

Which means that the hot gasball in question is about twice as hot, maybe more (probably more, actually), and thanks to the fourth power of black body radiation, radiating 16 (or more) times as energetically.

[Cocytus]

So if the star in question has an energy output 16 times that of the sun, then the E-D's shields absorb 1.07E15 joules/second, or about 15 megatons per minute, 922 per hour, and thus only 18 hours until we hit 17 gigatons?

Well, that's fine by me, but the corona of the sun is actually considerably hotter than the surface, something I don't think real world science quite understands as yet.

[l33telboi]

12,000K (yeah, I know C isn't K), would mean the hull was subjected to something around a gigawatt per square meter, according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, if I'm not mistaken.

[Cocytus]

12000 Kelvins is 11727 degrees C, since the Kelvin scale counts from -273 degrees C, i.e. absolute zero.

What's 11727 figure to by Bolzman's law? About the same?

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=19
This is the look of the sun.

There's a bit of a problem with the 12,000 K surface temp. That star would be blue, not orange yellow, if it was a main sequence star.
So, it would probably be a giant/super giant, which means the radii and area would be greater.

BEVERLY
(to Barnaby)
The databanks should contain
information about a process called
metaphasic shielding --

BARNABY
I know about that research.
Commander La Forge was developing
a program that would implement
metaphasic properties...

BEVERLY
How far along was he?

BARNABY
(working console)
The program's in the databanks...
but it was never tested...

BEVERLY
If we had metaphasic shielding, we
could enter the sun's corona and
the Borg ship wouldn't be able to
follow.
(beat)
Can you bring the program on line?

BARNABY
I can... but we have no way of
knowing if the shields will hold.

TAITT
Sir, hull temperature is rising...
now at twelve-thousand degrees C.
Radiation level is nearing ten
thousand rads.

STAR TREK: "Descent, Part II" - REV. 6/24/93 - ACT FOUR 42.

39 CONTINUED:

Suddenly the ship is ROCKED by another phaser blast.

BEVERLY
Report.

TAITT
Shields at sixty-two percent...

BEVERLY
Lieutenant, activate the
metaphasic program. We don't have
a choice.

BARNABY
Aye, sir.

He begins working at a console.

TAITT
Hull temperature is critical. We
can't withstand this heat much
longer.

BARNABY
The program is on line. Engaging
metaphasic shield... now.

There is a tense beat.

TAITT
Hull temperature dropping... down
to seven thousand degrees.

There is general relief.

BEVERLY
Maintain course.

[Mith]

Alright, that makes sense. We knew they would dismantle the bases along the Neutral Zone. If they also inactivated the ships those bases supported, that would leave the entire frontier unguarded, justifying Cartwright's opposition to giving the Klingons a "foothold in our territory."

I also suspect other ships were slowly retired, simply from the fact that they didn't need them due to lack of conflict with their neighbors. Perhaps they could be easily pulled back into service at some point, but keeping a massive fleet that you aren't using is a waste.

You yourself said they don't appear to be far beyond the TOS era level of technology. Now if we include the films, TOS spans about 30 years. But the series itself runs from 2266 to 2269, 100 years before the beginning of TNG.

True, but that's technological advancement wise. Take a look at the Death Star for example; it's built of the same technology that the Empire's had for about twenty five thousand years. It's no more advanced than your typical ship, but it's a great deal more powerful in power and strength. Granted, this is somewhat flawed since the technology has been scaled up, but my point is that just because they've made it stronger, it doesn't mean it's more advanced in technology. Another example is a modern nuclear warhead with a smaller yield, but greater accuracy and speed (thus requiring a smaller warhead), and a older model that requires more firepower due to lack of accuracy and speed.

The Cardassinas may be more powrful than the UFP in TOS as they are now, but they are not that much more advanced. Plasma torpedoes were around in TOS, phaser banks were used in TOS, and their lack of advancement (not to mention O'Brian's constant pains in early DS9) suggests that their technology is not all that advanced compared to TOS, but they do carry greater firepower in terms of yields and warp speeds. Furthermore, the Cardassians focus on practical designs. Just look at how many Galor classes they have; about 70% of their fleet is made up of it. It seems they went for the old faithful approach rather than the UFP and Romulan method which includes the most advanced weapons in every area.

To be fair, the Klingon technology hasn't advanced nearly as much as the Romulans or the UFP. The recent war with the Dominion saw the output of a new ship class, and the Vor'Cha is fairly new (TNG if I recall), but the bulk of their army is made up of mostly standard Bird of Prey with a few altered ones, and old TOS warships that even the Romulans ceased to use. Of course, the fact that they had a major crisis that nearly shattered their empire in ST:6 might also be taken into account.

Of course, it was noted in DS9 that the Klingons use a more primitive method for their warpcore reactions, although these were still located on their older ships.

It dominated a single warship, which may or may not have been Galor class, and a series of defenseless supply ships and monitoring stations. And yes, I think the Nebula is clearly a powerhouse as far as Federation starships go. Not to the extent that the Galaxy is, but similar in capabilities since it obviously shares so many components. The weapons pod, as far as I know, contains only additional torpedo launchers. I've never seen any phaser arrays on it. The standard Pheonix-type Nebula has two torpedo launchers already (the rear one, and a front one directly above the deflector. We saw it fire in First Contact.) And it took an entire wing of Cardassian destroyers (most likely Galors, since Dax refers to them as destroyers in SoA) to destroy the USS Honshu in "Waltz." The fact that the Pheonix trounced a Cardassian sector should not be taken as indication of Cardassian weakness but of the Nebula's strength. Regarding the Galors, I'd say they were designed to match the Excelsior class, which would have been the mainstay of the fleet in the 2340s, with only a few of the newer Ambassadors in service. Against larger ships they would operate in groups, which is probably exactly the impetus for the design of the Akira, a maneuverable starship with massive torpedo firepower which could readily engage multiple targets simultaneously. I suspect they shelved it because it had little use outside of a conflict situation. Then the first Borg incident occurred, and Akiras were much more common by the time the second Borg incident rolls around. By the Dominion War they are commonplace.

This may be true, but we'd have to go over the design of the Nebula to figure out just what its position in fleet engagments would be, otherwise for all we know, the Akira could be more powerful than the Nebula.

In any case, I agree with the Excelsior and the Galor being around the same mind frame. The Excelsiors were the largest ships at the time, and would have been closer to the TOS level than the Galaxy or the Nebula. It's also worth mention that the two would have likely had the same firepower, although I'd give the advantage to perhaps the excelsior, since she has torpedoes and phaser banks. By that reason, the Cardassians starting a war with the UFP seems more reasonable in that time period, since the worst they had to worry about was the Ambassadors. Given that the Ambassadors would likely have more powerful shielding to fit the defensive mindset of the UFP, as well as a prototype for the Galaxy hull, not to mention the more advanced torpedo launchers, and the phaser banks. A handful of Galors could easily engage it. The Cardassians would have a disadvantage, but since their main ships seemed composed of Galors, the weakness would be offset by the large amount of Mirandas that the UFP also had in service.

This might also explain all those horrible kit bashes we saw in a few episodes, where the UFP might have been pushing out a few classes in order to get a feel for a new kick-ass design. I'd suggest they perhaps made 12 for most of the classes, which would suggest why the classes were quickly shelved, why we rarely see the ones that weren't, and it seems to match up with the UFP's mindset, since they seem to order their initial line in that range.

I suppose that depends on what your definition of "tough" is. Regardless, the missile establishes a precedent for what Cardassia can do when it really sets its mind to something.

True, but the UFP can do a great deal of crap do, just when they set their mind to it...and not forget it by the time of the next episode. In any case, super weapons tend to be above par with most weapons that are fielded, so while it seems that the Cardassians might be able to build Quantums, it might not yet be practical for them to field them.

The Dominion clearly wasn't directly involved in their construction, since such delays from Dominion personnel would never have been tolerated by the Vorta. That the Dominion supplied the Cardassian Empire, severely damaged by its recent war with the Klingons, the raw materials to do so I can accept.

Well, to be fair, coming up with the idea likely wasn't too hard, although clever. But you see that a lot in Trek, where they go "Hey, if we just do this..." rather than actually show much advancement (although this does happen). Given the new structure of command, and the major losses in the war, I can see an idea like this that wouldn't have been given the okay, getting it out of sheer desperation. In that case, creating a power network, and then linking it up to a facility on an asteroid wouldn't be that hard so long as it could be done with a reasonabl budget.

Your last point is excellent. Given the highly structured, formal nature of Cardassian society, its probable new advancements are met with speculation and scorn, and work their way into the mainstream slowly. And if we look at it in terms of different fields, then yes the Cardassians are certainly behind in some areas, and on par in others. Your point about firepower is also well taken, though with energy weapons, power is a function of reactor output, and since Cardassian phasers can pose a threat to Federation starships and the reactors are in gerenal the same size, their reactor tech isn't all that far behind. Certainly their hand weapons are often more powerful, as Kira says in "Return to Grace," further evidence that their power generation abilites aren't that far behind Starfleet's. Their replicators can produce specialized defensive weapons("Civil Defense") something we've yet to see a Federation replicator do. Certainly their transporter tech appears on par. Their optalythic data rods are analagous to isolinear chips. I think the issue here is not one of technological development but one of application. Your point about their "lack of imagination" is correct, I feel.

To be fair, transporter technology hasn't advanced that much, and the replicator thing was weird, but I don't see why a UFP one couldn't do it. As for Return to Grace...that one is somewhat weird. She also claimed it had two settings, so that means that either Cardassian phasers have a stun setting, and their latter is overkill, or they have a kill setting, and overkill. That's not to mention the fact that phasers don't seem to need that much power to begin with, so it may be possible to get more results, while still having a lower output.

Of course, I also hate Kira.

[l33telboi]

There's a bit of a problem with the 12,000 K surface temp. That star would be blue, not orange yellow, if it was a main sequence star.

We're not talking about the surface temperature, they were in the corona of the star, after all. The corona is much hotter then the surface, in fact it's around the million Kelvin mark.

That'd mean the sun there is actually less intense then our own.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There's a bit of a problem with the 12,000 K surface temp. That star would be blue, not orange yellow, if it was a main sequence star.

We're not talking about the surface temperature, they were in the corona of the star, after all. The corona is much hotter then the surface, in fact it's around the million Kelvin mark.

That'd mean the sun there is actually less intense then our own.

That's something else to consider. The density of the corona, as well as the mechanics that heat it up (magnetic fields, some say antimatter even blossoms in that region).
The corona is a kind of plasma, but with the low density, I don't know how this translates well into heating up a ship's hull. Sure, it's going to transmit energy to the hull, but just how much, in comparison to what comes from the photosphere.

That said, a weaker star would fit well with visuals.

[Jedi Master Spock]

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=19
This is the look of the sun.

There's a bit of a problem with the 12,000 K surface temp. That star would be blue, not orange yellow, if it was a main sequence star.
So, it would probably be a giant/super giant, which means the radii and area would be greater.

Different regions of a star can be different temperatures for difference reasons. The not-particularly-dense-yet-reddish-orange-tinted chromosphere tops 12000 degrees in its outer layer (goes up to 50000, in fact), although not particularly dense.

Thermodynamics strongly suggests that we not have a cooler substance spontaneously heating a warmer substance.

Frankly, given that heavy filtering is necessary to display any sort of visuals of a ship running around the interior of a star, I'm not inclined to rely on the color of the plasma as necessarily accurate, regardless of what layer it turns out to actually be.

[Mith]

It should be noted that the Enterprise had its standard shields up, so it would be dispersing some of the heat and radiation over her shield grid as well as the hull.

[Praeothmin]

I think it's notheworthy that the hull was able to heat up to 12 000 degrees C and not breach, or that it was only at that time that they started to worry about hull temperature... Even with the shields dissipating some of that heat and radiation...

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=19
This is the look of the sun.

There's a bit of a problem with the 12,000 K surface temp. That star would be blue, not orange yellow, if it was a main sequence star.
So, it would probably be a giant/super giant, which means the radii and area would be greater.

Different regions of a star can be different temperatures for difference reasons. The not-particularly-dense-yet-reddish-orange-tinted chromosphere tops 12000 degrees in its outer layer (goes up to 50000, in fact), although not particularly dense.

Thermodynamics strongly suggests that we not have a cooler substance spontaneously heating a warmer substance.

Frankly, given that heavy filtering is necessary to display any sort of visuals of a ship running around the interior of a star, I'm not inclined to rely on the color of the plasma as necessarily accurate, regardless of what layer it turns out to actually be.

I don't understand it. The ship was not in the chromosphere, but farther, somewhere in the corona.
Any hull heat up would be due to what the shield couldn't cope with.

[Mike DiCenso]

We have to keep in mind here that the E-D before it began it's run towards the star was hit and damaged heavily by the pursuing Borg ship, including heavy shield damage:


BEVERLY
Helm, get us out of here.

BARNABY
We've lost warp engines.

BEVERLY
Evasive maneuvers, full impulse.


TAITT
Shields are down to eighty
percent.

BEVERLY
Fire phasers.


BARNABY
Direct hit. No damage to the Borg
ship.


TAITT
Shields at seventy-three percent.

BEVERLY
Status of the warp engines?

BARNABY
Still down. We can't outrun them.


BEVERLY
(to con)
Helm, set a new course -- heading
three-four-four mark six. Full
impulse.



A similar thing happened in the first season TNG episode "The Arsenal of Freedom", when the E-D's stardrive flies into the Minosian atmosphere in a last desperate bid to render a pursuing cloaked drone visible through friction ionization. There the shields were very heavily pounded down from hours of fighting the drone.
-Mike