Commentary: Can you replicate a spacesuit?

[The Elder Dwoof]

Not sure if the "MUT2K Pilot" is really in the right spot, since it's kinda about a question about Replicating Spacesuits and the limitations of replicators in general (and a bit about why the Warsies are so incredibly obsessed about gold...Is Yoda really a leprechaun?)

MUT 2K Pilot

Originally started as an argument about replicating spacesuits, but the page he sent me to on replicator limitations was just plain weird. The entire page, which was HUGE, could be boiled down to two sentances:

1: Replicators have problems replicating unstable, nanoscale or complex chemicals, because there is an error factor when replicating matter.
2: There are certain elements that can't be replicated. Specificly Gold, "latinum", and certain other elements.

SDN's own lack of forum rules, courtesy, and general dismissiveness of the points in the thing, even though I actually AGREE with some of the stuff in there, leave me with no conscience problems whatsoever in moving the debate on it's contents over here.

[Jedi Master Spock]

The key point is "single bit errors." Complex organic molecules form really strangely with single bit errors - gene coding tends to get messed up. and a couple single bit errors can completely alter the folding of a protein.

Single bit errors are relatively unimportant for things several layers of atoms thick and with regular structure, and don't really require any exotic elements per se. Some polymers have fairly complex structure, but they're not very sensitive to single-bit errors.

I would assume that normal replicator activity is based on assembling elements, rather than synthesizing them, hence why one does not simply replicate latinum or gold; replicators are fairly energy intensive, though.

That fact may help explain why they aren't used for everything; there are more efficient ways to manufacture things than personal replicators. (Stem bolts may well be made in job lots by more specialized industrial replicators, or by another technique.)

[The Elder Dwoof]

Well, for something like Space Suits (and costumes for discretion on away missions, infiltrating nazi facilities and Holodeck activities) Replicators are Ideal. A space suit can easily be designed from replicable elements (There are quite a few acceptable substitutes for just about every component of a space suit, from the vacuum seals to the radiation shielding), and it would let you make suits specifically for the person in question (If you had an emergency on the enterprise-D, for example, you could make spacesuits for the Tellarate ambassador who's on board, as well as all the children and crew if it was really necessary, without having to have them 'in stock'.

Anything on a Nanoscale though, where the exact position of every atom is critical, would be a problem...and like you said, complex molecules can be completely messed up by little errors. One malformed protien in a blood transfusion, and you could end up very messed up indeed.

[Roondar]

Actually, as far as I know the only thing they cannot replicate is antimatter.

That is to say, they can in fact replicate latinum fine - it's just that it, like all other replicated matter, won't be 100% accurate and hence detectable as being 'fake'. It's alledged by Quark etc that Latinum is being used because it is very hard to fake, whereas the gold in gold pressed latinum is merely a container and not of real value.

I believe there are DS9 episodes in which O'Brien says things which basically boil down to "I'm off to replicate some tricorders/phasers/hullplates". I don't have the quotes though. We also have a DS9 episode in which the replicator creates and powers an automated phaser defense system, complete with scanners and power supply, as well as the DS9 episode in which they replicate a rifle, complete with scanner and micro transporter.

Another thing which is interesting to know is that replicators are (per Voyager and DS9) based on the transporter (and can be modified into transporters with minimal alterations), use matter/energy conversion and if incorrectly installed (too little shielding) can cause people in the immediate vicinity to die pretty horrible deaths.

Voyager also suggests that the replicator (again, like the transporter) was something that merely required power to operate, not matter as such. Then again, if you have working transporter technology (which is to say the ability to convert matter into energy and vice versa) that is pretty much a given.

A side effect of this is that Federation power generation ability has rather high minimal levels since building matter out of energy would basically require the matters rest energy supplied, or E=MC^2. And that goes up rather fast.

[SailorSaturn13]

Latinum is stated to be unreplicable, for some handwaving reasons. Gold, according to Quark; is worthless - but that doesn't prove they make everything from energy - they could transmutate other metals. Per "real life", replicators require special plasma, though.

[Roondar]

Latinum is stated to be unreplicable, for some handwaving reasons. Gold, according to Quark; is worthless - but that doesn't prove they make everything from energy - they could transmutate other metals. Per "real life", replicators require special plasma, though.

True. However, the replication of complex and powered machines suggests that they can make quite a bit with replicators. In fact, apart from antimatter and latinum I've never heard another example of unreplicable matter - all examples of stuff they can't replicate has been stated to be due to not having a base pattern of the object they wished to make, not due to the replicators not being able to do it.

Secondly, plasma powered or not, there is nothing about replicators that really suggests they need similar base matter* to make their stuff - we've never heard anyone on the shows say stuff like "well, we can still replicate all the food you want but no more metal because we're all out of that". In fact, during Voyager a point was often made about how little energy and resources they had but their replicators still managed to make pretty much every type of matter without problems.

*) Wasn't there also that portable replicator Picard once left behind for some colonists? That thing was far to small for 'reserve matter'.

On top of that, transmuting or altering special 'base matter' into end products is not likely to be energy friendly either. Perhaps not as expensive as E=MC^2, but I'm willing to wager that transmuting say, iron to say, gold would still require a heck of a lot of energy.

Not to forget that Janeway (and others) specifically mentions that replicators use "matter energy converters" to do their work. This suggests they do in fact use energy as a middle form.

[Ted C]

2: There are certain elements that can't be replicated. Specificly Gold, "latinum", and certain other elements.

To my knowledge, replicators don't do elemental transmutation at all. It will rearrange molecules into particular shapes, but if you want an object made of gold, you need to have some gold on hand for it to rearrange. Consequently, having the right feedstock is one of the major limitations of replicators.

[Jedi Master Spock]

OK, something funny just occurred to me... let's say, hypothetically, you've got a soup of transporter-suspended or virtual particles. Assembling light elements is easy. (Exothermic process feeding energy back into the system.) Assembling light elements from other light elements is also easy.

Synthesizing heavy elements (like gold) from lighter elements is harder, because the final proton and neutron additions are endothermic. How's that sound?

[The Elder Dwoof]

Latinum is stated to be unreplicable, for some handwaving reasons. Gold, according to Quark; is worthless - but that doesn't prove they make everything from energy - they could transmutate other metals. Per "real life", replicators require special plasma, though.

On the contrary, Quark referred to it as wortless 'relative to Latinum', which, he jokingly mentioned, was annoying to deal with because you had to give out change with an eyedropper (it's a liquid), which is why they use Gold to contain it, in "gold Pressed Latinum" which is Ferengi standard currency. We know that Gold is not replicatable, because in the very first episode where we encounter the ferengi, they make a big deal about the gold on the communicator badges.

[Who is like God arbour]

2: There are certain elements that can't be replicated. Specificly Gold, "latinum", and certain other elements.

To my knowledge, replicators don't do elemental transmutation at all. It will rearrange molecules into particular shapes, but if you want an object made of gold, you need to have some gold on hand for it to rearrange. Consequently, having the right feedstock is one of the major limitations of replicators.

Your knowledge, from where is it? Do you have any sources to confirm your knowledge?

As fas as I know, it was never really explained, how a replicator works.

But it was indicated in several episodes, that it indeed converts energy to matter and vice versa. That would mean, that they don't need raw gold to make an object of gold. They create the necessary gold by converting energy to gold.

But if you have a source, which indicates, that they need raw material of the same element as the matter that is part of the object, they want to replicate, please enlighten me.

[Who is like God arbour]

Latinum is stated to be unreplicable, for some handwaving reasons. Gold, according to Quark; is worthless - but that doesn't prove they make everything from energy - they could transmutate other metals. Per "real life", replicators require special plasma, though.

On the contrary, Quark referred to it as wortless 'relative to Latinum', which, he jokingly mentioned, was annoying to deal with because you had to give out change with an eyedropper (it's a liquid), which is why they use Gold to contain it, in "gold Pressed Latinum" which is Ferengi standard currency. We know that Gold is not replicatable, because in the very first episode where we encounter the ferengi, they make a big deal about the gold on the communicator badges.

• LETEK:
  • (exhibiting the Starfleet insignias taken)
    • Proof of their barbarism -- they adorn themselves with gold, a despicable use of rare metal...
    (indicates Tasha)
    • And they shamelessly clothe their females...

I don't think, that that quote is to be taken seriously. He has tried to run down the starfleet landing party as barbarian who are using "rare metal" to "adorn themselves". For a primitve culture, gold is a rare metal and to adorn themselves with it could be called barbarism. But he has concealed, that the Federation is not a primitive culture and that for them gold is not rare and therefore the use of it is not a proof of their barbarism.

And if gold would not be replicable and would have a significant worth, why would they use it in their communicators?

[Roondar]

2: There are certain elements that can't be replicated. Specificly Gold, "latinum", and certain other elements.

To my knowledge, replicators don't do elemental transmutation at all. It will rearrange molecules into particular shapes, but if you want an object made of gold, you need to have some gold on hand for it to rearrange. Consequently, having the right feedstock is one of the major limitations of replicators.

Erm, this is clearly not true.

If only for Janeway (and others) statement about "matter/energy converters" being part of replicators and how a ~15 cm long metal pipe was enough to change a DS9 replicator into a transporter.

Couple this with the statements about how replicators are an offshoot of transporters, how people aboard the Enterprise(s) and Voyager kept replicating stuff that would be rather odd to have in storage (or at the very least far too valuable for people to keep using), how energy was made out to be the only problem and reason for Replicators to be less usefull on Voyager, how no one ever said something like "replicators are running out of gold/metal", etc.

We've even heard ample stories about how replicators solved the food problem on Earth. If it could only reassemble stuff, you'd still need the actual foodstuff to work with. And no, human waste wouldn't work - it doesn't contain everything we need (and this is Startrek, if it worked like that they would have made jokes about it. Frequently)

In fact, we have never ever heard of such a limitation on any of the shows.

[Ted C]

Well, let's see...

Gold is still valuable. We know that from "The Perfect Mate", in addition to "The Last Outpost".

Dilithium can't be replicated. It's a naturally occurring mineral, so if it's just a matter of transmuting elements and then assembling them, it shouldn't be a problem to replicate. On the other hand, if it's a element (like an isotope of lithium), then it would be impossible to replicate if the replicator can't transmute elements.

In fact, the need for mining operations in general refutes the idea that they can just replicate any element they need. Why mine for "vendarite" or "magnesite" if you can just replicate the component elements. The energy cost isn't much of an excuse, since mines are often in different systems from the point of use: I can't imagine the cost of replication being substantially higher than the cost of producing antimatter fuel for the freighter.

Besides, replicators have a track record of having more trouble with replication as the scale of the item to be replicated gets smaller. They can replicate Borg nanoprobes, which are about the size of a blood cell, but they manufacture medical nanites, which are small enough to enter cells. They can't replicate vaccines, since they're constantly transporting them by starship. Anything smaller than a blood cell seems to be a problem for replicators, and elemental transmutation would require accuracy at a sub-atomic scale.

[Praeothmin]

We have heard that Replicators are based off of Transporter technology, but i remember it being mentioned in TNG's first season that the difference was that the replicators weren't as precise as the Transporters on a subatomic level (where it would matter in chemicals and living tissue).

[Mike DiCenso]

They can't replicate vaccines, since they're constantly transporting them by starship.

You're being a bit non-specfic and possibly anti-chronological as well here. Usually the only reference to needing to transport vaccines comes from the TOS-era, specifically "Obsession", where the USS Yorktown and Enterprise were to rendezvous so that a vaccine could be delivered in a timely manner to a colony in need. Replication technology does not seem to have been available or at least was not anywhere nearly as fully developed as it is in the TNG-era.
-Mike