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So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:12 pm
by Mr. Oragahn
Just asking. I mean, a torp can't have a defense as good as a ship's, and considering the trajectories of torps and computing abilities of Trek ships, and the gain of shooting a torp with a minimal level of energy instead of waiting for the great megaton energy washing against shields... do ships in Trek attempt to shoot down torps?
It feels odd to me that considering the importance of torps, they wouldn't be using a defense grid system that is much less energy hungry and simpler to put into practice than some shield.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:44 pm
by Cpl Kendall
Have we seen it, more than once I mean? And if they could it would make far more sense to mount a space-CIWS than use the main batteries for it.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:33 pm
by Trinoya
One would presume they just don't find it necessary to do so, though it has been demonstrated and cited. Apparently a Romulan even devised a tactic built around shooting down his own torpedoes.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:42 pm
by Cpl Kendall
I'd like to see those references, as I don't see them anywhere in this thread.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:50 pm
by 2046
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:13 pm
by Cpl Kendall
So it happened three times, twice because of the characters AI nature. And of course it begs the question of why they can't do this using a proximity fuse.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:19 pm
by l33telboi
Photonic shockwave? As in the anti-matter in the torpedo getting leaked into space? Would be quite dangerous I suppose, as you'd risk getting the anti-matter to react with your hull, instead of against the matter in the torpedo itself.
Wonder how that'd fare against shields though. They're supposed to be gravitic in nature, right? There was a quote about "graviton shielding" or somesuch from Generations, if memory serves. Would be hard for anti-protons to react with that.
...Except if the shields let them through, I mean shields are known to let some some stray particles through.
Any more info on the matter?
Cpl Kendall wrote:And if they could it would make far more sense to mount a space-CIWS than use the main batteries for it.
Not really. Given ST technology, point-defense could be oh-so-much better then anything we have today. Best I could think of would be wide-beam setting on ship-phasers. Beaming away incoming projectiles would be nice too, except I recall photorps being shielded.
Meh, ST has some of nicest tech around when it comes to popular sci-fi, it's a shame they never really capitlized on it. But then, when have we ever seen a sci-fi series/movie/game that does?
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:13 pm
by Cpl Kendall
l33telboi wrote:
Not really. Given ST technology, point-defense could be oh-so-much better then anything we have today. Best I could think of would be wide-beam setting on ship-phasers. Beaming away incoming projectiles would be nice too, except I recall photorps being shielded.
I don't mean a literal modern day CIWS mounted on the hull, you could use a low power phaser for example. Tying up the main batteries is just stupid.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:12 pm
by Mike DiCenso
There are several examples all through Trek of at least being mentioned or shown the capability to shoot down various missle-type weapons:
* "Balance of Terror" [TOS1]: Sulu laments not having phasers operational to dedonate the Romulan plasma torpedo chasing them down, though later the phasers are used to destroy point-blank a nuclear proximity bomb the Romulan ship lets go in the Enterprise's path.
* "Patterns of Force" [TOS2]: The phasers are used to shoot and destroy a primitive missle launched at the Enterprise from Nazi planet Ekos.
* "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" [TOS3]: The Enterprise's phasers destroy several missles fired at the starship from the Yonada worldship.
* "The Price" [TNG3]: A Ferengi missle is shot down by the E-D's phasers.
All this in addition to the VOY "Workforce, Part II" example. A point-blank CIWS phaser probably would not be for the best as we know that even a single torpedo can dedonate with it's full yeild potential ala the Workforce example, and cause considerable damage. The photon torpedo would probably have to be dedonated at relatively long range to avoid serious damage.
-Mike
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:05 am
by Mike DiCenso
Cpl Kendall wrote:l33telboi wrote:
Not really. Given ST technology, point-defense could be oh-so-much better then anything we have today. Best I could think of would be wide-beam setting on ship-phasers. Beaming away incoming projectiles would be nice too, except I recall photorps being shielded.
I don't mean a literal modern day CIWS mounted on the hull, you could use a low power phaser for example. Tying up the main batteries is just stupid.
In "Conundrum" [TNG5], the phasers are shown doing something very much like that to destroy in rapid succession several of the Lysian drone pods, though they make use of the second largest of the ships 11 available phaser arrays to do so.
-Mike
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:46 am
by Mr. Oragahn
Mike DiCenso wrote:There are several examples all through Trek of at least being mentioned or shown the capability to shoot down various missle-type weapons:
* "Balance of Terror" [TOS1]: Sulu laments not having phasers operational to dedonate the Romulan plasma torpedo chasing them down, though later the phasers are used to destroy point-blank a nuclear proximity bomb the Romulan ship lets go in the Enterprise's path.
* "Patterns of Force" [TOS2]: The phasers are used to shoot and destroy a primitive missle launched at the Enterprise from Nazi planet Ekos.
* "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" [TOS3]: The Enterprise's phasers destroy several missles fireded at the starship from the Yonada worldship.
* "The Price" [TNG3]: A Ferengi missle is shot down by the E-D's phasers.
All this in addition to the VOY "Workforce, Part II" example. A point-blank CIWS phaser probably would not be for the best as we know that even a single torpedo can dedonate with it's full yeild potential ala the Workforce example, and cause considerable damage. The photon torpedo would probably have to be dedonated at relatively long range to avoid serious damage.
-Mike
If long range is 500 meters, then yes. Having an omnidirectional blast 200-500 meters away from your ship rather than at the surface of your shield is still infinitely better.
In first case, if the blast is not directed, the shield will take around 50% of the radiations and all the jazz. At a range of a few hundred meters, the ship's profile will be considerably smaller.
Either they can't track fast moving torps, can't lock on the shields or something because of jamming, or there's just some convenient technobabble at play there.
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:29 am
by Who is like God arbour
- If we assume, that photon torpedos have shields, it is to conclude, that, because of these shields, a photon torpedo is not that easily destroyed by enemy weapons fire.
- To shoot down an own torpedo - and only that was shown in Star Trek - one has only to know the shield frequency of the own torpedos or to order the torpedo remotely to drop the shields.
One could assume, that a photon torpedo has a shield generator, that is capable to generate a very strong shield around the relativ small torpedo for the short time, a torpedo is usually flying to its target. Even if a point defense system or the main weapons would be able to overcome the torpedo shields in the short time, the torpedo need to reach its target, the torpedo would be already so near, that the photonic shock wave would maybe be worse than an impact in the shields of the ship.
- Why however a torpedo, that is hit with a phaser, is supposed to explode more powerful than as if it would explode regular, is curious. But that was the impression, I have got from the Voyager episode Workforce. Kim has said, that he can't penetrate the shields of the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships and only then has the Emergency Command Hologram got the idea to emulate the tactic, the Romulan captain has used at the battle of Vorkado, by creating a photonic shock wave between the two pursuing Quarren patrol ships to disable them. To fire directly at the ships has failed to disable them, but the photonic shock wave was enough to do it. Either it is more powerful than a regular photon torpedo explosion or the photonic shock wave has another unknown, but more disastrous effect to the ship systems.
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:59 pm
by l33telboi
Cpl Kendall wrote:I don't mean a literal modern day CIWS mounted on the hull, you could use a low power phaser for example. Tying up the main batteries is just stupid.
Usually when people mention CIWS they do refer to modern day point-defense systems, hence the confusion. But it's no biggie.
In any case, you probably know the phasers can vary their power output, right? So why would you fire the phasers at maximum against a torpedo if you can just as well dial down the strength of the beam?
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:39 pm
by Who is like God arbour
l33telboi wrote:In any case, you probably know the phasers can vary their power output, right? So why would you fire the phasers at maximum against a torpedo if you can just as well dial down the strength of the beam?
Because, if in a battle, several torpedos are flying at your ship, an autonomous specialised (point) defense system, that will target and (if possible at all) destroy incoming torpedos would be better than the usage of the main weapon system, which would be, because it is occupied with destroying oncoming torpedos, unavailable at that moment to fire at the enemy ship, that fires the torpedos at your ship in the first place.
But the question, if it is possible to overcome the torpedo shields and destroy an enemy torpedo in the short time, the torpedo needs, to reach your ship, still stands.
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:32 pm
by l33telboi
Who is like God arbour wrote:Because, if in a battle, several torpedos are flying at your ship, an autonomous specialised (point) defense system, that will target and (if possible at all) destroy incoming torpedos would be better than the usage of the main weapon system, which would be, because it is occupied with destroying oncoming torpedos, unavailable at that moment to fire at the enemy ship, that fires the torpedos at your ship in the first place.
Given the rate of fire the phasers have been shown to have, you'd be talking about a heck of a lot of torpedoes in order to tie up the phasers system for any prolonged period of time.
Don’t get me wrong, what you're suggesting is possible. But to me it seems highly unlikely that this should become much of a problem in your average engagement.