Way of the Warrior Part II force sub: Imperial Stormtroopers

[Kahless]

How would a legion of Imperial Stormtroopers do if they were to take the place of DS9s defenders? They get all the same equipment as they do in the movies. Assume the weapons\systems of the ship are automated and will procede like it did before. To make things easier, no books or anything for either side. Only movies and the TV show.

Frankly, I think the Klingons may definitely win this but I could be wrong.

[2046]

Are they being beamed onto the station, or are there ships that have to dock? Oh wait, defenders . . . nevermind. (Good . . . 'cause that could suck for the Imperials otherwise.)

If the stormies are defending, I don't see much difference. Disruptor shots will take them down just as effectively, and I'm not recalling anything that would support an argument for impressive hand-to-hand capability for stormtroopers . . . they're commonly tossed about and knocked down and so on and so forth.

The only real question is how the assorted Klingon bladed weapons would do against the armor. If the armor could withstand a swing with the pointy-end, blunting the impact, then it's a bit better for the stormtroopers. Alternately, the situation would be like pressing your thumbnail into an M&M . . . once you break up the candy coating it's all mushy inside.

Given the failings of the armor in large scale blunt impacts, I'd be willing to wager that a blade with sufficient force behind it would penetrate. But it would still be of much more value than the usual DS9 uniforms . . . potentially the difference between a painful flesh wound and a nick on the armor. (On the other hand, how did Cardassians fare against Klingons?)

But weighed against the immobility of the armor suits, the reduced visibility, et cetera, I'm not sure the overall effect would be significant. It's kind of a toss-up.

(What would be nice for the stormtroopers is if they got the lightsabers they were promised in ANH pre-production drawings . . . there'd be half-bat'leths all over the place.)

[Gniops]

The Klingons get butchered, IIRC they got their arses kicked by the Feddie/Bajoran personnel, so the better equipped Stormies should do better.

There shouldn't be any real question about the effectiveness of Batleths, since its extremely unlikely that they'll come into play, the Stormies not being equipped with muskets, and the Klingons not being Power armoured space marines and thus able to ignore enemy fire to a point.

Stormie armour is also likely to be able to repel the basic "kill" setting of Disruptors, while slicing through the faux-armour uniforms of the Klingons.

[Trinoya]

I think the stormies come out on top, but with about 10% more casualties than the feds had originally. The armor, while not entirely impressive, will certainly deflect the occasional blade, and that will certainly mean one more storm trooper up long enough to take another disrupter hit for his buddy, perhaps giving his buddy another kill.

Nonetheless, the true increase in casualties come from the sheer 'shock and awe' nature of the transporter to the stormies... who have simply never encountered something like that before.

[Who is like God arbour]

The Klingons get butchered, IIRC they got their arses kicked by the Feddie/Bajoran personnel, so the better equipped Stormies should do better.

There shouldn't be any real question about the effectiveness of Batleths, since its extremely unlikely that they'll come into play, the Stormies not being equipped with muskets, and the Klingons not being Power armoured space marines and thus able to ignore enemy fire to a point.

Stormie armour is also likely to be able to repel the basic "kill" setting of Disruptors, while slicing through the faux-armour uniforms of the Klingons.

Are you able to substantiate these claims?

I think the stormies come out on top, but with about 10% more casualties than the feds had originally. The armor, while not entirely impressive, will certainly deflect the occasional blade, and that will certainly mean one more storm trooper up long enough to take another disrupter hit for his buddy, perhaps giving his buddy another kill.

If the armor would be significant effective against Batleths, why do we have to assume, that the Klingons won't alter their tactic and start to use only their disruptors?

[Ted C]

This would seem to be exactly the sort of environment in which Stormtroopers do best. They laid down effective fire in the boarding of the Tantive IV, and they should be similarly effective in the corridors of DS9.

While I wouldn't count on it to stop disruptor shots, I would expect the armor to be effective at turning a bat'leth into a glorified club, although anyone with a gun who's having to defend against melee attacks is doing something wrong. Stormtroopers should be just blasting the Klingons before they get close, although there is the possibility of a party beaming in right on top of them.

I would expect the Stormtroopers to do better than their Federation/Bajoran counterparts, especially if there's no restriction against using grenades and support weapons (like the tripod-mounted blaster from ESB).

[Cocytus]

Stormie armour is also likely to be able to repel the basic "kill" setting of Disruptors, while slicing through the faux-armour uniforms of the Klingons.

What? Stormtrooper armor offers absolutely no protection against blaster bolts. And all the evidence point to phasers and disruptors being considerably more powerful. I've certainly never seen a blaster vaporize a person, or a cubic meter's worth of rock. The only area in which the armor would be useful is in hand to hand combat, and even then I'd expect, given their strength, a determined Klingon could penetrate the armor with any of the various bladed weapons they use. I do agree with you on one point: that Klingon battle armor is similarly useless. This scenario is one of attrition. Each side is equally capable of inflicting damage on the other, so whichever one runs out of troops first loses.

[Mike DiCenso]

If the scenario plays out exactly as it did in WoTW, including the shields to the station ulitmately being restored in just a few minutes, then I would expect the victory to go to the defending Stormtroopers as that cuts off future reinforcements from the Klingons.

However, that being said, the STs will be taking casualties during the fight as their armor will not afford them total protection from disruptor fire, nor even from the bat'leths.
-Mike

[Gniops]

Are you able to substantiate these claims?

Lets have a look.

The Klingons did not succeed in their boarding action, and were driven off by a combination of bajoran security blokes and feddy crew members with handguns and bare fists, none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.

To paraphrase the many fucking responses I've had on this topic, go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.

Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

I question what you are doing debating this if you can't agree with this.

I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle, especially with guys with automatic rifles, particularly when they beam in with a nice sound effect and sparkly lights.

I suspect you are playing silly buggers if you expect me to even address the musket and power armour issue.

If the armor would be significant effective against Batleths, why do we have to assume, that the Klingons won't alter their tactic and start to use only their disruptors?

For a start, because the Klingons are daft enough to bring their Batleths onboard to begin with. If a long history of people getting shot by enemy weaponry hasn't convinced them that its a dumb fucking idea, why should they suddenly change their minds now ?

And all the evidence point to phasers and disruptors being considerably more powerful

Read what I said, the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

[Praeothmin]

They laid down effective fire in the boarding of the Tantive IV,

Without taking cover, and only the fact that Rebels are as horrible shots as Stormtroopers did they succeed in winning this engagement.
At least the Feddies and the Bajorans were using a little cover.

I would expect the armor to be effective at turning a bat'leth into a glorified club, although anyone with a gun who's having to defend against melee attacks is doing something wrong.

And as we saw in RotJ, the Stormtrooper armor isn't very effective against clubs...

none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.

Just like Stormtroopers...

go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.

Well, I don't think this is in dispute.
And, anyways, some people watched ANH and came out of that under the impression Stormtroopers were competent, when they're clearly not...

I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle

Just like they did in the original episodes, they'll rush the defenders, who in this case are even worse shots then the original ones...

the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

And yet it still goes through Klingon and Jem'Hadar armor well enough to kill, so I really don't see what difference that will make here.
Add the fact that Klingons disruptors are usually set at a higher setting then Fed phasers, and you've got as many dead Stormtroopers as you had dead Feddies.

[Cocytus]

Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

None of which is worth a hill of beans since standard Stormtrooper aim makes even the most atrocious misses by Star Trek officers seem professional by comparison.

[Mike DiCenso]

Lets have a look.

The Klingons did not succeed in their boarding action, and were driven off by a combination of bajoran security blokes and feddy crew members with handguns and bare fists, none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.

To paraphrase the many fucking responses I've had on this topic, go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.

Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

No one here has disputed that the Federation/Bajorn defenders won the engagement, though that was more due to the shields of the station being restored, and an effective diplomatic effort on Sisko's part to put an end to the fighting.

If the same conditions are in effect for the Stormtroopers, then they win the fight for the same reasons, and the Klingons lose because the shields block any chance for them to send reinforcements into their boarding action.

The ST use of body armor will not save them against close quarters fighting as evidenced how easily the teddy bear Ewoks beat up, or simply shot through the supposedly all-protective armor using the most primitive wood constructed weapons!

I question what you are doing debating this if you can't agree with this.

I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle, especially with guys with automatic rifles, particularly when they beam in with a nice sound effect and sparkly lights.

This is more trollish behavior on your part.

You should take your own advice and rewatch the episode, the klingon troops did not just run around with swords, they also made extensive use of their disruptors, and quite often they did make it into close combat, wounding or killing a number of Feds and Bajorans in the process.

If the armor would be significant effective against Batleths, why do we have to assume, that the Klingons won't alter their tactic and start to use only their disruptors?

For a start, because the Klingons are daft enough to bring their Batleths onboard to begin with. If a long history of people getting shot by enemy weaponry hasn't convinced them that its a dumb fucking idea, why should they suddenly change their minds now ?

Why not bring bladed weapons into combat as well as long range energy weapons?

Read what I said, the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

We have also seen phasers and disruptors burn through clothing and sometimes keep on going through the person, all while on the "basic setting" (whatever the hell that is). There is no reason that even a lower kill setting, like the ones more often seen in TOS that do not burn through clothing would not work against ST armor.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

This would seem to be exactly the sort of environment in which Stormtroopers do best. They laid down effective fire in the boarding of the Tantive IV, and they should be similarly effective in the corridors of DS9.

They missed most of the time and they were going up against Alderaanian troops who were so incompetent they simply kneeled out in the open corridor (staying mostly immobile) where almost anyone could hit them, and could barely hit straight in return.

While I wouldn't count on it to stop disruptor shots, I would expect the armor to be effective at turning a bat'leth into a glorified club, although anyone with a gun who's having to defend against melee attacks is doing something wrong. Stormtroopers should be just blasting the Klingons before they get close, although there is the possibility of a party beaming in right on top of them.

Which means that the klingon troops would likely use disruptors rather than bat'leths.

I would expect the Stormtroopers to do better than their Federation/Bajoran counterparts, especially if there's no restriction against using grenades and support weapons (like the tripod-mounted blaster from ESB).

Unfortunately for the Stormtroopers, they only ever once used the tripod blaster in all of the OT, even when having it set up in advance would have been highly advantageous. If that isn't bad enough, we never once saw STs use grenade weapons of any kind, like the Tantive boarding action, or the battle against the Ewoks on Endor, even when it would have been extremely advantageous for them to do so. Hell, they don't even use flash-bang devices like the Jem'Hadar used on Cardassia.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

Are you able to substantiate these claims?

Lets have a look.

The Klingons did not succeed in their boarding action, and were driven off by a combination of bajoran security blokes and feddy crew members with handguns and bare fists, none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.

To paraphrase the many fucking responses I've had on this topic, go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.

Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

I question what you are doing debating this if you can't agree with this.

I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle, especially with guys with automatic rifles, particularly when they beam in with a nice sound effect and sparkly lights.

I suspect you are playing silly buggers if you expect me to even address the musket and power armour issue.

If the armor would be significant effective against Batleths, why do we have to assume, that the Klingons won't alter their tactic and start to use only their disruptors?

For a start, because the Klingons are daft enough to bring their Batleths onboard to begin with. If a long history of people getting shot by enemy weaponry hasn't convinced them that its a dumb fucking idea, why should they suddenly change their minds now ?

And all the evidence point to phasers and disruptors being considerably more powerful

Read what I said, the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

It seems, that your arguments were all already adressed:

• • none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.

    Just like Stormtroopers...
    

    go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.

    Well, I don't think this is in dispute.
    And, anyways, some people watched ANH and came out of that under the impression Stormtroopers were competent, when they're clearly not...
    

    I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle

    Just like they did in the original episodes, they'll rush the defenders, who in this case are even worse shots then the original ones...
    

    the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

    And yet it still goes through Klingon and Jem'Hadar armor well enough to kill, so I really don't see what difference that will make here.
    Add the fact that Klingons disruptors are usually set at a higher setting then Fed phasers, and you've got as many dead Stormtroopers as you had dead Feddies.

    Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

    None of which is worth a hill of beans since standard Stormtrooper aim makes even the most atrocious misses by Star Trek officers seem professional by comparison.

    
    Lets have a look.
    
    The Klingons did not succeed in their boarding action, and were driven off by a combination of bajoran security blokes and feddy crew members with handguns and bare fists, none of whom displayed or utilised any form of small unit tactics or weaponry beyond that of a bunch of rent-a-cops.
    
    To paraphrase the many fucking responses I've had on this topic, go watch the episode if you dispute that the feddies beat the klingons.
    
    Stormies are equipped with full body armour, side arms, various rifles and carbines etc, and have been demonstrated to repeatedly use short bursts of rapid fire and aiming with iron sights etc.

    No one here has disputed that the Federation/Bajorn defenders lost the engagement, though that was more due to the shields of the station being restored, and an effective diplomatic effort on Sisko's part to put an end to the fighting.
    
    If the same conditions are in effect for the Stormtroopers, then they win the fight for the same reasons, and the Klingons lose because the shields block any chance for them to send reinforcements into their boarding action.
    
    The ST use of body armor will not save them against close quarters fighting as evidenced how easily the teddy bear Ewoks beat up, or simply shot through the supposedly all-protective using the most primitive wood constructed weapons!
    

    I question what you are doing debating this if you can't agree with this.
    
    I find it bloody stupid that you question that what amounts to unarmoured guys with short swords are going to somehow get into close combat constantly enough to change the outcome of this battle, especially with guys with automatic rifles, particularly when they beam in with a nice sound effect and sparkly lights.

    This is more trollish behavior on your part.
    
    You should take your own advice and rewatch the episode, the klingon troops did not just run around with swords, they also made extensive use of their disruptors, and quite often they did make it into close combat, wounding or killing a number of Feds and Bajorans in the process.
    

    If the armor would be significant effective against Batleths, why do we have to assume, that the Klingons won't alter their tactic and start to use only their disruptors?

    For a start, because the Klingons are daft enough to bring their Batleths onboard to begin with. If a long history of people getting shot by enemy weaponry hasn't convinced them that its a dumb fucking idea, why should they suddenly change their minds now ?

    Why not bring bladed weapons into combat as well as long range energy weapons?
    

    Read what I said, the basic kill settings of almost any weapon in star trek appears to be burnt fabric, we even see people dying without a trace of a hit sometimes.

    We have also seen phasers and disruptors burn through clothing and sometimes keep on going through the person, all while on the "basic setting" (whatever the hell that is). There is no reason that even a lower kill setting, like the ones more often seen in TOS that do not burn through clothing would not work against ST armor.
    -Mike

I have nothing further to add but that I've asked for evidence because your claim was totally unsubstantiated.

Even if I would see, that your claim would have been correct in respect of content, I would have asked for a substantiation. It's not a good style to make such unsubstantiated claims. That's what one can do at SDN but not here. I don't like vs. threads in which in a given scenario all are only saying, that one could beat the other with ease but are not giving one single argument. If all have the same opinion, a debate and the participation in it is needless. And if you expect, that not all have the same opinion, you are obliged to provide substantiation and evidence for your claims.

[Enterprise E]

Do the Stormtroopers know the lay out of DS9? If they do, I think that they manage to win. They may suffer more casualties than the Starfleet/Bajoran security personnel, but I do think that they'd take it. They'd know where good chokepoints would be so they'd be able to inflict more casualties than the Klingons would be able to inflict. If they don't know the lay out of the station, they could be in more trouble. The Klingons won't hesitate to use their disruptors once their blades prove ineffective, if they are ineffective, against Stormtrooper armor. Also, the lack of knowledge of the station means that they wouldn't know where the best chokepoints would be for bogging down the Klingon advance. They would likely still win due to the shields rising once again, but they would suffer far more casualties in this scenerio than they would if they know the lay out of the station.