How far away is the Romulan Neutral Zone from Earth?

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

How far away is the Romulan Neutral Zone from Earth?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:40 am

How far away is the Romulan Neutral Zone from Earth?

I need that information, to calculate the velocity of the USS Enterprise-E at maximum warp, considering SDN logic.



In Star Trek: First Contact, despite orders relegating them to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone, Picard and the crew of the new USS Enterprise-E disobey their superiors and set a course for Earth with maximum warp, where they join a fleet of vessels repelling an advancing Borg cube, after they have heard via subspace radio, that the Starfleet task force, led by Vice Admiral Hayes, has failed to stop the Borg cube in the Typhon sector.

In the movie, the Enterprise goes at warp at time index 09:05 and arrives at Earth at time index 09:50, only 45 seconds later.

The Battle of Earth is showed from time index 09:07, the first torpedos are hitting the Borg cube at time index 09:19, the Borg cube explodes at time index 11:16. The observed part of the Battle of Earth has lasted altogether 129 seconds.

During the few scenes, in which the Borg cube is showed, [Defiant attack run [09:25 - 09:30], Enterprise arrives [09:57 - 01:04], Borg cube on the screen [10:22 - 10:25], Fleet on stand by [10:53 - 10:56], Fire! [10:57 - 11:16]], in only 37 seconds, it has observable destroyed at least six Starfleet vessels.

It is to assume, that the Borg cube has destroyed other vessels during that 37 seconds, but that couldn't be observed because it has happened of screen or behind the cube, where we couldn't look.

Extrapolated to the 129 seconds, the observed part of the Battle of Earth has lasted, the Borg cube would have destroyed at least 20 Starfleet vessels.



That shows, that we have to assume, that the Enterprise - according to SDN logic - has not needed far more time to reach Earth than these 45 seconds.

That is, what every normal person, watching that scene would think.
        • Darth Wong wrote:Most of their arguments are like this: they look for loopholes in the evidence through which to fit their claims, and then act as if one must prove their claims impossible or they win by default. That is totally unlike any kind of reasonable approach. No normal person watches that scene and thinks "I wonder what they did during the several days they waited for the Rebel fleet to arrive after Leia said they would be here any moment"; they must realize on some level that they're off in la-la land, but they figure they've got loopholes, and you can't dislodge them from those loopholes so they win.
After all, is it imaginable, that the Enterprise would have needed more time to reach Earth?
That would mean, that the Starfleet task force, that has an engagement with the Borg cube already in the Typhon sector, would have had also more time to fight the Borg cube all the way from the Typhon sector to Earth.
If the trip would have needed one day, that would mean, that the crew of the ships of the task force would have been in battle for a whole day. Don't they need sleep?
And during a day, the Borg cube would have destroyed 14'000 Starfleet vessels. Or do we have to assume, that the fleet wouldn't have attacked the Borg cube during the travel to Earth, that both have traveled amicable side by side until they have reached Earth?

Maybe there is an explanation, that could explain, why the Enterprise would have needed more time to reach Earth, than was showed in the movie. But we don't want to reach for loopholes.

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:01 am

Even if one would only take the distance to the next star system, Alpha Centauri, that is circa 4,3 ly away from Earth, we would get huge velocities.

Light would need 4,3 years or 135'604'800 seconds to reach that star system.

If we assume, that the Enterprise has only needed 45 seconds, she would have been 3'013'440 times faster than light.

But - although I don't know, how far away from Earth the Romulan Neutral Zone is - I think we can assume, that it is a few times farther away than the next star.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:38 pm

No specific distance is ever (thankfully) given in all of Trek over how far it is from Earth the Romulan Neutral Zone (RNZ). However in ST:ENT's second season episodes "Minefield" and "Dead Stop", we learn that the NX-01 is some 130 light years from Earth when it first encounters Romulans. We might assume for the sake of being conservative, that the Romulus-Remus star system is only a few light years further beyond this point. Round up to 135 ly.

Also I serious doubt that it took only some 45 seconds for the E-E to make it to Earth from the RNZ for the same reasons I give in the Sullust-Endor thread for the Falcon's trip to Alderaan via Tatooine to not have taken only a few minutes or hours. There is simply no way to know how much of the trip we are seeing cut due to the movie's time constraints. Previous trips back from the edges of Federation space to Earth seem to need at least 2-6 days as per episodes like "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II" and "Emissary" [DS9, season 1].

So that gives us 135 light years * 365 = 49,275 light days. Divide by 2 = 24,637.5c. For a six day travel time we get 8,212.5c. The rough average of the two is 16,425c.

This would likely be a conservative estimate since the very far edges of Federation space are likely to be on the order of hundreds or even thousands of light years from Earth, and it is also likely that Romulan space is somewhat further away than 135 ly.
-Mike

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Post by 2046 » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:38 pm

While I appreciate what you're trying to do, ST:FC is not the best example. For instance, Earth is not in the Typhon Sector, which is where the battle seemed to begin, IIRC.

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:44 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Also I serious doubt that it took only some 45 seconds for the E-E to make it to Earth from the RNZ for the same reasons I give in the Sullust-Endor thread for the Falcon's trip to Alderaan via Tatooine to not have taken only a few minutes or hours. There is simply no way to know how much of the trip we are seeing cut due to the movie's time constraints.
That's one point of this thread: to show how stupid it is, to estimate the time by what was shown in the movie.

But SDN denizens like Darth Wrong argue, that you should take the movie as it was shown. If you argue, that the Enterprise would have needed more time to Earth, although it clearly was shown in the movie, that the Enterprise arrived only 45 seconds at Earth after she departed at the Romulan Neutral Zone, you are looking for loopholes. "No normal person watches that scene and thinks "I wonder what they did during the several days" flying side by side to the Borg cube or what the Enterprise crew would have done during the several days flying to Earth.

One could create a silly video, like Cock_Knocker has done, inventing absurd scenes to show, how absurd the notion is, that the Enterprise from the Romulan Neutral Zone or the Starfleet Task Force and the Borg cube from the Typhon sector would have needed several days to reach Earth.


Mike DiCenso wrote:Previous trips back from the edges of Federation space to Earth seem to need at least 2-6 days as per episodes like "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II" and "Emissary" [DS9, season 1].
That was then. But here, we have a new ship with a new propulsion. The new Enterprise is clearly faster than the old Enterprise.

And we don't know, how far away from Earth they were then and which route they have taken to reach Earth. Maybe the Borg cube then has come from another direction than from the Romulan Neutral Zone. Maybe the border of the UfP is in that direction further away from Earth, than the Romulan Neutral Zone is?

That's why the travels in the past from the border of the UfP to Earth don't have to be similar to the tavel of the Enterprise E from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in First Contact.


Mike DiCenso wrote:No specific distance is ever (thankfully) given in all of Trek over how far it is from Earth the Romulan Neutral Zone (RNZ). However in ST:ENT's second season episodes "Minefield" and "Dead Stop", we learn that the NX-01 is some 130 light years from Earth when it first encounters Romulans. We might assume for the sake of being conservative, that the Romulus-Remus star system is only a few light years further beyond this point. Round up to 135 ly.
Why has the Romulus-Remus star system to be that near?
The Romulans would have had their warp drive as long as the Vulcans. They could have been far far away from home.

And if the territory of the UfP spread across nearly 8,000 light years of space - according to First Contact - and the border to the Romulans would be only 130 light years away from Earth, Earth would be nearly at the border of the UfP, quasi in spitting distance. While it is possible, it seems to me implausible. If the Romulans were that near, it would have been difficult to break all ties until it was reestablish in the episode "The Neutral Zone".

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:50 pm

2046 wrote:While I appreciate what you're trying to do, ST:FC is not the best example.

That may be.
2046 wrote:For instance, Earth is not in the Typhon Sector, which is where the battle seemed to begin, IIRC.
Exactly!

Do we have to assume, that they would have needed several days for the travel from the Typhon Sector to Earth? That would mean, that the Starfleet Task Force has fought the Borg cube all the way to Earth. The ships and their crews would have been in battle several days.

Or do we have to assume, that the Starfleet Task Force has traveled amicable side by side to the Borg cube and has attacked it again not until it has reached Earth?

The logical, SDN approved conclusion has to be, that the Starfleet Task Force has engaged the Borg cube in the Typhon sector, the Borg cube has broken through their defense line, has continued its travel to Earth, accompanied by the remains of the Starfleet Task Force, who would have attacked the cube all the way. Because it would be stupid to assume, that such a battle would have lasted long [see above], we have to assume, that the journey was very short. Therefore we have to assume, that both, the remains of the Starfleet Task Force and the Borg cube have arrived at Earth only seconds after they have left the Typhon sector.
The Enterprise arrived also only a short time after its departure from the Romulan Neutral Zone. And, because the crew of her has heard, when the Borg has broken through the defense line and we know, that from that moment, the battle can't have lasted long [see above], the Enterprise can't have needed much more time to reach Earth, than shown in the movie.

That is SDN logic. That is, what every one, who has seen that movie, has observed. Nobody would think, that the battle has lasted several days, if allone in the 37 seconds, we could observe it, the Borg cube has destroyed 6 Starfleet vessels. With that rate, it would have destroyed in one day over 14'000 Starfleet vessels.

Argue against it and you are only trying to find loopholes.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:58 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Also I serious doubt that it took only some 45 seconds for the E-E to make it to Earth from the RNZ for the same reasons I give in the Sullust-Endor thread for the Falcon's trip to Alderaan via Tatooine to not have taken only a few minutes or hours. There is simply no way to know how much of the trip we are seeing cut due to the movie's time constraints.
Who is like God arbour wrote:
That's one point of this thread: to show how stupid it is, to estimate the time by what was shown in the movie.

But SDN denizens like Darth Wrong argue, that you should take the movie as it was shown. If you argue, that the Enterprise would have needed more time to Earth, although it clearly was shown in the movie, that the Enterprise arrived only 45 seconds at Earth after she departed at the Romulan Neutral Zone, you are looking for loopholes. "No normal person watches that scene and thinks "I wonder what they did during the several days" flying side by side to the Borg cube or what the Enterprise crew would have done during the several days flying to Earth.


One could create a silly video, like Cock_Knocker has done, inventing absurd scenes to show, how absurd the notion is, that the Enterprise from the Romulan Neutral Zone or the Starfleet Task Force and the Borg cube from the Typhon sector would have needed several days to reach Earth.
Yes, all of that is very silly, and I appreciate what you are doing. However we need to be careful ourselves, least we fall into a similar line of thinking. What was the E-E crew doing while they headed back to Earth? Don't know, and it's not all that important to the story just like it was not terribly important to show what the Rebels are doing on their way from Sullust to Endor, nor everything that Han, Chewie, Luke, Obi-Wan, Artoo, and Threepio were doing on the Falcon during their (presumably) several day trip from Tatooine to Alderaan.

Mike DiCenso wrote: Previous trips back from the edges of Federation space to Earth seem to need at least 2-6 days as per episodes like "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II" and "Emissary" [DS9, season 1].
Who is like God arbour wrote: That was then. But here, we have a new ship with a new propulsion. The new Enterprise is clearly faster than the old Enterprise.

And we don't know, how far away from Earth they were then and which route they have taken to reach Earth. Maybe the Borg cube then has come from another direction than from the Romulan Neutral Zone. Maybe the border of the UfP is in that direction further away from Earth, than the Romulan Neutral Zone is?

That's why the travels in the past from the border of the UfP to Earth don't have to be similar to the tavel of the Enterprise E from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in First Contact.
You obviously haven't seen "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II", and you haven't seen ST:FC in a while, either. The E-E was NOT a part of the Typhon sector battle, and Picard and the E-E crew disobeyed orders to join the fleet by intercepting the Borg cube at Earth. So yes, they came by a different route, otherwise the E-E intercept of the Borg cube would have occured well before Earth was reached. IN BoBW, the E-D is variously either being chased by, or chases the Borg cube all the way back to Earth space over a period of days, and from an entirely different direction all together. However, again, for the sake of being conservative with speed with my speed estimates, I chose to use the 2-6 day BoBW time, even though that may involve far greater distances than the RNZ-Earth distance.


Mike DiCenso wrote:No specific distance is ever (thankfully) given in all of Trek over how far it is from Earth the Romulan Neutral Zone (RNZ). However in ST:ENT's second season episodes "Minefield" and "Dead Stop", we learn that the NX-01 is some 130 light years from Earth when it first encounters Romulans. We might assume for the sake of being conservative, that the Romulus-Remus star system is only a few light years further beyond this point. Round up to 135 ly.
Who is like God arbour wrote: Why has the Romulus-Remus star system to be that near?
The Romulans would have had their warp drive as long as the Vulcans. They could have been far far away from home.
It is a canon distance that I use. It is certainly the only concrete one available to us. Is that the actual distance in the 23 and 24th centuries of how far Romulan territory is from Earth? Not likely, as the Earth-Romulan war possibly pushed the Romulans quite a ways back from there. However the 135 ly distance provides us with a lower limit to work from.
Who is like God arbour wrote:And if the territory of the UfP spread across nearly 8,000 light years of space - according to First Contact - and the border to the Romulans would be only 130 light years away from Earth, Earth would be nearly at the border of the UfP, quasi in spitting distance. While it is possible, it seems to me implausible. If the Romulans were that near, it would have been difficult to break all ties until it was reestablish in the episode "The Neutral Zone".
WILGA, you might want to read what I wrote carefully. I clearly stated that 135 ly was for the sake of being conservative. It produces a lower limit on the speed of the E-E since it is difficult to estimate an upper limit due to a lack of information. The 130 light year number is the only concrete one we have for an Earth to Romulan territory distance. And yes, it is likely that the Romulus-Remus system is much further away, I even state as much in my short essay.
-Mike

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:31 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Yes, all of that is very silly, and I appreciate what you are doing. However we need to be careful ourselves, least we fall into a similar line of thinking. What was the E-E crew doing while they headed back to Earth? Don't know, and it's not all that important to the story just like it was not terribly important to show what the Rebels are doing on their way from Sullust to Endor, nor everything that Han, Chewie, Luke, Obi-Wan, Artoo, and Threepio were doing on the Falcon during their (presumably) several day trip from Tatooine to Alderaan.
I hope, it is obviously, that I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I try to argue, as if I would be a SDN denizen. I'm able to differentiate between what is real logic and what is SDN logic.


Mike DiCenso wrote:You obviously haven't seen "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II", and you haven't seen ST:FC in a while, either. The E-E was NOT a part of the Typhon sector battle, and Picard and the E-E crew disobeyed orders to join the fleet by intercepting the Borg cube at Earth. So yes, they came by a different route, otherwise the E-E intercept of the Borg cube would have occured well before Earth was reached. IN BoBW, the E-D is variously either being chased by, or chases the Borg cube all the way back to Earth space over a period of days, and from an entirely different direction all together. However, again, for the sake of being conservative with speed with my speed estimates, I chose to use the 2-6 day BoBW time, even though that may involve far greater distances than the RNZ-Earth distance.
Mike DiCenso you might want to read what I wrote carefully. I have never said, that the Enterprise was part of the Starfleet Task Force. That's, what I have written in the OP:
        • In Star Trek: First Contact, despite orders relegating them to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone, Picard and the crew of the new USS Enterprise-E disobey their superiors and set a course for Earth with maximum warp, where they join a fleet of vessels repelling an advancing Borg cube, after they have heard via subspace radio, that the Starfleet task force, led by Vice Admiral Hayes, has failed to stop the Borg cube in the Typhon sector.
And I have seen Best of Both Worlds several times. But, as far as I remember, we weren't told, from where the Borg cube has come and where the Enterprise was, as she has met it. My point was, that because we don't know, which route the Enterprise D and the Borg cube in Best of Both World have taken then, we can't compare it with the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth route from First Contact.


Mike DiCenso wrote:It is a canon distance that I use. It is certainly the only concrete one available to us. Is that the actual distance in the 23 and 24th centuries of how far Romulan territory is from Earth? Not likely, as the Earth-Romulan war possibly pushed the Romulans quite a ways back from there.
OK


Mike DiCenso wrote:However the 135 ly distance provides us with a lower limit to work from.
NO, because, as I have tried to explain, we don't know anything more than that the Enterprise has met the Romulan ship at that point. We have no clue, how far away the ship was from Romulus and we don't know, where the Romulan Neutral Zone was established in relation to that system. The system could be lie in the 24th century in UfP space or in Romulan space or it coul lie in space, that is not claimed by either side.

It is, as if I would have to assume, that because I met an Aborigine at the North Pole, while exploring it, that Australia is as near to that Aborigine, as Germany is to me.

That's why it is not even a reliable lower limit.
Mike DiCenso wrote:WILGA, you might want to read what I wrote carefully. I clearly stated that 135 ly was for the sake of being conservative. It produces a lower limit on the speed of the E-E since it is difficult to estimate an upper limit due to a lack of information. The 130 light year number is the only concrete one we have for an Earth to Romulan territory distance. And yes, it is likely that the Romulus-Remus system is much further away, I even state as much in my short essay.
-Mike
My problem was, that it is not even a reliable lower limit.

But I agee, that it is likely that the Romulan space is much further away.

Kane Starkiller
Jedi Knight
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Post by Kane Starkiller » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:54 pm

That was a nice strawman WILGA but no one on SD.net ever claimed that Sullust-Endor trip lasted a few seconds or lasted as long as the actual screen time between the scene where fleet enters the hyperspace to the scene where the fleet exits.
All the they are saying that it didn't last for days.

And I'm sure no one is suggesting that Enterprise took days and weeks to reach the Borg cube in FC. We can't now for sure though but then again no one at SD.net is claiming that FC points to some ultra low warp speed. You know the way some people over here use shadows on Endor to manufacture days of extra travel.

Now as for your question of how far Earth is from the Romulan Neutral zone I'm afraid it's meaningless because a border is not a point in space.
Canada-US border comes as close as 500km to Washington at the Great Lakes but can be as far as 5000km between Alaska and Yukon territory.
So if someone says "We are at Canadian border almost 5000km from Washington" and a few days later someone says "It took me 6 hours to drive from Washington to the Canadian border" that doesn't necessarily mean that his car can go 833km/h but merely that he drove to some closer point on the border.

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:41 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:That was a nice strawman WILGA but no one on SD.net ever claimed that Sullust-Endor trip lasted a few seconds or lasted as long as the actual screen time between the scene where fleet enters the hyperspace to the scene where the fleet exits.
The main website claims it took a grand total of a half hour, but the speeds commonly claimed on, say, ST.com by SDN residents (~100 million c) would actually place the time quite close to the total onscreen time. Checking the SDN "Endor to Sullust" thread, I see Aratech claiming 1,000,000,000c for hyperdrive. That would be a very short time indeed - if anything, less than the time elapsed on screen.

When challenged to ask how long he thought the trip took, Cock_Knocker refused to answer that question.

In addition, I may point out that saying it really took a moment to travel is nothing new in the debate; indeed, I can point out to where Narsil suggests using the archaic definition of "moment" to conclude it took no more than 90 seconds, and that passage is argued over frequently.
All the they are saying that it didn't last for days.
On ST.com, I pointed out that - as my webpage has always stated - we still at a minimum have a morning to afternoon trip taking multiple hours. Something like 6-12, in fact.

This was argued against every bit as vehemently as a multiple day timeline. No, I don't think we're seeing a strawman, precisely. Implicitly and explicitly, we have seen arguments saying the fleet got there in roughly the onscreen time.

Now, to try to drag things back on topic - I think that's actually a decent estimate for the RNZ distance. The problem is the question of how large the RNZ is.

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:03 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:That was a nice strawman WILGA but no one on SD.net ever claimed that Sullust-Endor trip lasted a few seconds or lasted as long as the actual screen time between the scene where fleet enters the hyperspace to the scene where the fleet exits.
All the they are saying that it didn't last for days.
Jedi Master Spock has already answered that point. I have not seen one single SDN denizen, who has admitted, that it could be possible, that Jedi Master Spock could be correct and that the Sullust-Endor trip could have lasted several hours.

Indeed, with the absurd hyperspace-speeds, SDN denizen beliefs in, the trip would have lasted only minutes, if not seconds.
        • Darth Wrong on his side [url=http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Propulsion/Propulsion2.html]Star Wars: Imperial Propulsion Technology[/url] has wrote:
          • [...] Our Star Destroyers can easily traverse our galaxy in a matter of a few weeks, with travel speeds of over 1 million times the speed of light. [...]
          • [...] This works out to a speed of 3.65 million times c. [...]
          • [...] This indicates that .4 hyperdrive is equivalent to a mere 26,000c in this region of space (only 8 times faster than a Federation ship), as opposed to the 1.2 million c speed of .5 hyperdrive factor, which is more than 400 times faster than a Federation ship. [...]
          • [...] A trip from the outer rim to a core system will be at least 30,000 light years (and probably much more- Alderaan might be on the far side of the core), and if it takes less than one day, travel speeds must be in excess of 10 million c. This is from a canon source. [...]
          • [...] Furthermore, we can see from the BTM map that the distance from Alderaan to Tattooine is closer to 40,000 light years than the conservative 30,000 light year estimate used earlier, and a 40,000 light year trip in 7 hours would require speeds of roughly fifty million times c. [...]
          • [...] This requires speeds in excess of 100 million times c! [...]
Most of these estimates are based on disput- and questionable, partly even verifiable wrong assumptions.

Or
        • Aratech wrote:
          General Schatten wrote:
          Vympel wrote:Because they don't accept EU evidence as to distances between planets, so they pretend it means nothing if Palpatine got to Mustafar in a matter of what is literally less than an hour.

          They only spin copious amounts of bullshit about the distances actually explicitly stated - ie. the hundreds of light years from Sullust to Endor, and the Tatooine-to-Geonosis trip. Both are based on patently ludicrous premises that no normal person would bother with.

          (Besides, the greater point is still - what kind of fuckwit wathces RotJ and thinks the trip took days?)
          You need only look at the Clone Wars, where Obi-wan was on Muunilist talking to Ki-Adi Mundi on Hypori, as soon as the conversation ended Obi-wan sent his ARC Troopers to help and Grievous started fighting Ki-Adi and half a dozen other Jedi, in less than fifteen minutes the ARC's appeared to save the day. Hypori is in the same sector as Tatooine and Geonosis.

          As you can see in this map, Muunilist is up in the section labeled 'Empire' and Tatooine and Geonosis on the bottom of the map along that little yellow trade route. Fifteen minutes.
          I calced that once, though I have since lost the calculations. It works out to be over 1,000,000,000 times lightspeed, provided my calculations were correct.
          wjs7744 wrote:
          Aratech wrote:I calced that once, though I have since lost the calculations. It works out to be over 1,000,000,000 times lightspeed, provided my calculations were correct.
          Interesting, given that the highest estimate of warp speed I can think of is around 20,000c. They honestly don't realise that they are fucked by five whole orders of magnitude?
          Aratech wrote:
          wjs7744 wrote:
          Aratech wrote:I calced that once, though I have since lost the calculations. It works out to be over 1,000,000,000 times lightspeed, provided my calculations were correct.
          Interesting, given that the highest estimate of warp speed I can think of is around 20,000c. They honestly don't realise that they are fucked by five whole orders of magnitude?
          You are talking about people who must have Trek win, no matter the cost.

          These groups of people who believe that the United Federation of Planets can destroy the Culture without effort, that the Time War era Dalek Empire (read, were able to assemble 10,000,000 ships for a single battle and fought a empire of transcendent beings that made reality and time itself their plaything and technically win (originally believed that they forced the Time Lords into a MAD scenario. However, a number of Daleks survived... less than could be said of the Time Lords)) and will be crushed like a tin can.

          That Worf will effortlessly take on a Space Marine and quote "kick his ass" (Space Marines being genetically/cybernetically enhanced mega-warriors with centuries of combat experience in a universe where human survival time on the battlefield is measured in minutes, and are know for their inhuman strength, incredible speed (able to, in at least one case, cross a room in the time that it took a man to pull a trigger on a gun) and rediculous durability (Marines have survived being shot dozens of times by weapons that are like Star Wars blasters on steroids, being stepped on by 140 foot tall kill-bots, and in at least one instance survived taking a bolter (17.5mm adamantium coated, hypersonic, explosive round) shot to the face and just gotten pissed off).

          And that the Borg will effortlessly anniliate the Halo-verse Forerunners, who in addition to having ships that could induce brute force supernovas and mass scatter planets (though I'm not sure of their defensive properties) issue an armor skin believed to be some seven times more potent that something that enabled its wearer to survive a terminal velocity impact while being open to partial atmospheric re-entry and eats 50mm penetrator rounds with no discernible effects to its civilian non-combat population and whose ultimate feat was the creation of a series of combat ring worlds that wiped the entire Milky Way clean of life.

          Do not, I repeat, do not expect rational arguments.

          EDIT: Fixed for paragraphness. Vym.
          Ghost Rider wrote:
          wjs7744 wrote:
          Aratech wrote:I calced that once, though I have since lost the calculations. It works out to be over 1,000,000,000 times lightspeed, provided my calculations were correct.
          Interesting, given that the highest estimate of warp speed I can think of is around 20,000c. They honestly don't realise that they are fucked by five whole orders of magnitude?
          Aratech's large block of text post is pretty accurate but like many have said, these aren't just the last bits but the irrational who believe they are THE LAST BASTIONS OF TRUTH!!!!

          Now with the gross use of both language and capitalization looks asinine, it succiently states their mentality. They are not by any means ever going to concede because of this. What started at the beginning as moderates Trekkies and hardcore has now descended into only the rabid fanatic Trektards. At this point the best thing is mock and fuck with them because they are pretty much on the low end of the internet retards or not touch because it's akin to talking with a wall.
          Aratech wrote:Hmmm, in hindsight, I probably should have busted that up into many smaller paragraphs. Sorry. :oops:
          DPDarkPrimus wrote:Paragraphs or no, that is a hilarious and accurate summary.
I have not seen one single SDN denizen, who has controverted Aratechs "calculation" or wjs7744, with his 20'000 c estimation for maximum warp, which he claims to have heard.


Kane Starkiller wrote:And I'm sure no one is suggesting that Enterprise took days and weeks to reach the Borg cube in FC. We can't now for sure though but then again no one at SD.net is claiming that FC points to some ultra low warp speed. You know the way some people over here use shadows on Endor to manufacture days of extra travel.
Darth Wrong merely says, that 26,000c is 8 times faster than a Federation ship [see above], ergo: warp is only 3250 times faster than light.

That would mean, that a Federation ship would need to traverse only one single Sol like star system (from Oort cloud to Oort cloud, nearly 2 light years) nearly five hours.

To reach the next star system from Earth, Alpha Centauri, it would need over 10 hours to traverse these 4,3 light years.

To traverse 100 light years, it would need more than 250 hours or more than 10 days.

To traverse the 8000 light years, the UfP territory is large - according to Picard in First Contact - it would need more than 20'000 hours or more than 833 days or more than 2,2 years.
    • Even if one would use 20'000c for maximum warp, these values would be only be the sixth part of what they are above. It would still take more than 134 days or more than 4 months to cross the federation.
        • (According to Kasidy Yates, a trip from Deep Space Nine to Cestus III, that's considered to be "on the other side of the Federation" from Deep Space Nine, would last only eight weeks [not even two whole months] with maximum warp. Because maximum warp is different from ship to ship, it seems plausible, that she has meant the maximum warp of her own ship, the Xhosa, which was so old, that its equipment was mostly obsolete.)
Kane Starkiller wrote:Now as for your question of how far Earth is from the Romulan Neutral zone I'm afraid it's meaningless because a border is not a point in space.
Canada-US border comes as close as 500km to Washington at the Great Lakes but can be as far as 5000km between Alaska and Yukon territory.
So if someone says "We are at Canadian border almost 5000km from Washington" and a few days later someone says "It took me 6 hours to drive from Washington to the Canadian border" that doesn't necessarily mean that his car can go 833km/h but merely that he drove to some closer point on the border.
Correct. We wouldn't know, where exactly at the Romulan Neutral Zone the Enterprise was. But if we would know the smallest distance from Earth to the Neutral Zone, we would have a lower limit.

If we would take the 135 light years, Mike DiCenso has brought into the game, the Enterprise, if she would have traversed that distance in only 45 seconds, would have been 94'608'000 times faster than light, that would have needed 4'257'360'000 seconds for that distance.

Even if we would assume, that she would have needed one hour to traverse that distance, she would still be 1'182'600 time faster than c.

And now imagine, the battle would have lasted one hour, if only 37 seconds has cost already 6 Starfleet vessels. The Borg cube would have destroyed in that hour over 500 Starfleet vessels. But that would also mean, that at the Typhon sector, there were far over 500 Starfleet vessel to intercept the Borg cube - and it has broken through that defense line.
        • P.S. My math is so bad, that it is possible, that my calculations are all wrong. Insofar, nobody should trust the vaues, I have given.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:43 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Yes, all of that is very silly, and I appreciate what you are doing. However we need to be careful ourselves, least we fall into a similar line of thinking. What was the E-E crew doing while they headed back to Earth? Don't know, and it's not all that important to the story just like it was not terribly important to show what the Rebels are doing on their way from Sullust to Endor, nor everything that Han, Chewie, Luke, Obi-Wan, Artoo, and Threepio were doing on the Falcon during their (presumably) several day trip from Tatooine to Alderaan.
Who is like God arbour wrote: I hope, it is obviously, that I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I try to argue, as if I would be a SDN denizen. I'm able to differentiate between what is real logic and what is SDN logic.
Right, again I understand all of that. But again I reiterate that I have no intention of allowing myself to fall into that trap, even to make a point.
Mike DiCenso wrote:You obviously haven't seen "Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II", and you haven't seen ST:FC in a while, either. The E-E was NOT a part of the Typhon sector battle, and Picard and the E-E crew disobeyed orders to join the fleet by intercepting the Borg cube at Earth. So yes, they came by a different route, otherwise the E-E intercept of the Borg cube would have occured well before Earth was reached. IN BoBW, the E-D is variously either being chased by, or chases the Borg cube all the way back to Earth space over a period of days, and from an entirely different direction all together. However, again, for the sake of being conservative with speed with my speed estimates, I chose to use the 2-6 day BoBW time, even though that may involve far greater distances than the RNZ-Earth distance.
Who is like God arbour wrote: Mike DiCenso you might want to read what I wrote carefully. I have never said, that the Enterprise was part of the Starfleet Task Force. That's, what I have written in the OP:
        • In Star Trek: First Contact, despite orders relegating them to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone, Picard and the crew of the new USS Enterprise-E disobey their superiors and set a course for Earth with maximum warp, where they join a fleet of vessels repelling an advancing Borg cube, after they have heard via subspace radio, that the Starfleet task force, led by Vice Admiral Hayes, has failed to stop the Borg cube in the Typhon sector.
And I have seen Best of Both Worlds several times. But, as far as I remember, we weren't told, from where the Borg cube has come and where the Enterprise was, as she has met it. My point was, that because we don't know, which route the Enterprise D and the Borg cube in Best of Both World have taken then, we can't compare it with the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth route from First Contact.
Right, but you miss the point of using BoBW here; it is a known time that it took to get from one of the fringe areas of Federation space back to Earth over a fairly known time period of up to 6 days (which also included a few stops along the way there, but for our conservative purposes it will be used as though the E-D and the Borg cube never stopped at all). So a known time to get back from the edge of Federation space. Is the Federation uniform enough to allow us to do this? Not really as shown in this canon map:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/photo312c.JPG

But it at least gives us a guideline for how long a Federation starship pushing it's engines can cross hundreds to thousands of light years. Did the E-E take 6 days? Not necessarily, but for the sake of being conservative, this bit of canon information is being tied into the other to produce a lower limit, not an upper one.

You're actually arguing against me when I'am actually helping you here make a point!

Mike DiCenso wrote:It is a canon distance that I use. It is certainly the only concrete one available to us. Is that the actual distance in the 23 and 24th centuries of how far Romulan territory is from Earth? Not likely, as the Earth-Romulan war possibly pushed the Romulans quite a ways back from there.
Who is like God arbour wrote:OK
Mike DiCenso wrote:However the 135 ly distance provides us with a lower limit to work from.
Who is like God arbour wrote:NO, because, as I have tried to explain, we don't know anything more than that the Enterprise has met the Romulan ship at that point. We have no clue, how far away the ship was from Romulus and we don't know, where the Romulan Neutral Zone was established in relation to that system. The system could be lie in the 24th century in UfP space or in Romulan space or it coul lie in space, that is not claimed by either side.

It is, as if I would have to assume, that because I met an Aborigine at the North Pole, while exploring it, that Australia is as near to that Aborigine, as Germany is to me.

That's why it is not even a reliable lower limit.
It is fine, if you understand that Romulan space is probably much further away than that now in the 24th century. We also know from "Minefield" that it was not just a single ship the NX-01 encoutnered, but a whole minefield and at least two Birds of Prey. This was not merely two ships bumping into each other, but the NX-01 stumbling onto a planet that the Romulans had laid significant claim to. It also seems rather odd that the Romulans would claim a world that would highly isolated from their core territories, though it would be possible in those days, unlike the later TOS and TNG ones.
Mike DiCenso wrote:WILGA, you might want to read what I wrote carefully. I clearly stated that 135 ly was for the sake of being conservative. It produces a lower limit on the speed of the E-E since it is difficult to estimate an upper limit due to a lack of information. The 130 light year number is the only concrete one we have for an Earth to Romulan territory distance. And yes, it is likely that the Romulus-Remus system is much further away, I even state as much in my short essay.
-Mike
Who is like God arbour wrote: My problem was, that it is not even a reliable lower limit.

But I agee, that it is likely that the Romulan space is much further away.
It is reasonable enough to set a lower limit, that is all we need as long as we understand the other as-mentioned conditions that go with it.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:58 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote: And now imagine, the battle would have lasted one hour, if only 37 seconds has cost already 6 Starfleet vessels. The Borg cube would have destroyed in that hour over 500 Starfleet vessels. But that would also mean, that at the Typhon sector, there were far over 500 Starfleet vessel to intercept the Borg cube - and it has broken through that defense line.
        • P.S. My math is so bad, that it is possible, that my calculations are all wrong. Insofar, nobody should trust the vaues, I have given.
Actually the one serious flaw with that thinking is that it ignores the fact that the fleet of starships chasing the Borg cube back to Earth had not just simply been worn down by hours or days or fighting, and that is the reason we saw so many ships being destroyed in the last minutes before and after the E-E's arrival to save the day.

Even still, the fleet would have likely taken signficant losses, just not as bad as 500+ starships.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:08 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote: Darth Wrong merely says, that 26,000c is 8 times faster than a Federation ship [see above], ergo: warp is only 3250 times faster than
As usual Wong takes that information about warp speed from the non-canon TNG TM's warp speed chart, and largely ignores any actual canon on-screen information (no matter how numerous) that shows speeds in excess of that.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:49 pm

I'm lost. Is there and Endor trip discussion going here as well??

Anyway, what do you think of that Trek map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Star_trek_map2.jpg

Post Reply