Tatooine-Geonosis speed revisted

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Kane Starkiller
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Post by Kane Starkiller » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:57 pm

Regarding the AOTC Tatooine-Geonosis timeline there is one point I never saw adequately addressed:
Image
According to Darkstar this event takes place at dawn which is also the time Anakin and Amidala embark for Geonosis.
Then, in an update, he also concludes that this:
Image
is also dawn which seems supported by the same kind of purple tinge.
But then he leaps to the conclusion that this is actually dawn of the next day. There is no evidence for such a conclusion. In fact it makes no sense for Mace Windu to wait for 24 hours before finally approaching Yoda and deciding to send help to Obi-Wan.
Thus all evidence point to trip being made during the course of the same early morning on Coruscant.

Praeothmin wrote:Also, when Han says to meet them at 0300 hours, he has to mean in the next morning, because if he had meant 3pm, in military terms he would have used 1500 hours.
0300 hours at which time? 0300 hours at some "Galactic standard time" could very well be noon at the current location on Endor.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:16 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:Regarding the AOTC Tatooine-Geonosis timeline there is one point I never saw adequately addressed:
Image
According to Darkstar this event takes place at dawn which is also the time Anakin and Amidala embark for Geonosis.
Then, in an update, he also concludes that this:
Image
is also dawn which seems supported by the same kind of purple tinge.
But then he leaps to the conclusion that this is actually dawn of the next day. There is no evidence for such a conclusion. In fact it makes no sense for Mace Windu to wait for 24 hours before finally approaching Yoda and deciding to send help to Obi-Wan.
Thus all evidence point to trip being made during the course of the same early morning on Coruscant.
I'm not sure he meant next day as day x+2, as within: day x (now), day x+1 (tomorrow) and day x+2 (next day).
I think next day was, well, just what you get just after midnight has ticked.
Praeothmin wrote:Also, when Han says to meet them at 0300 hours, he has to mean in the next morning, because if he had meant 3pm, in military terms he would have used 1500 hours.
0300 hours at which time? 0300 hours at some "Galactic standard time" could very well be noon at the current location on Endor.
Yes, possible. I'm not totally clear on that thing. So Han says they'll go at 0300 and meet or something.
It can be either one or the other. Maybe they calibrated their watches to Endor day cycle, maybe they didn't. There's no way to tell, really.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:00 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm not sure he meant next day as day x+2, as within: day x (now), day x+1 (tomorrow) and day x+2 (next day).
I think next day was, well, just what you get just after midnight has ticked.
No what he meant to say is that dawn at which Anakin embarks for Geonosis and dawn at which Mace talks with Yoda are two different dawns. Therefore he concludes that it took at least 21 hours for Anakin and Amidala to get there. He doesn't explain why we should assume that those are two different dawns. It is obvious that it is one and the same dawn unless Mace waited 21 hours to finally decide to send help to Obi-Wan. Thus the actual trip was no more than an hour or so.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:38 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Except that the point is that the 3 weeks is not the time it takes for them to get there. It is the time to get, plus turnaround at Alderaan, and then the trip home. You and others keep missing this. Furthermore, I'am not coming up with anything convoluted, just pointing out that the novelization has information about the character's intent that is not available in the film due to time constraints.
No, this is not the problem.

Besides, taking 1.5 weeks to make Tatooine -> Alderaan, and then the same time, roughly, to go back... is not likely, even if Alderaan had been on the distant other side of the galaxy, somewhere in an arm.

Simply speaking, there is no contradiction to the three weeks simply because there is nothing in the movie that does contradict it. Han's original plan to collect the money at Alderaan from Ben and the Alderaanian government simply got derailed as soon as it became apparent that the planet was destroyed, and then they get captured by the Death Star. The novelization simply let us in on this where the movie cannot.

I don't know why you can't wrap your head around it.
-Mike
Simple. My question: does the movie allow for Han to have spoken those words?
If no, then they never left his mouth, the book is wrong, as it would then, have put words in Han's mouth he never and could never have pronounced.

That's my position. As I can't verify on my own, that's why I'm asking you to tell me if Han could have said these words like they're put in the book.
Instead of coming with a simple reply, you obviously keep evading the question, which in my opinion is done because you don't seem to accept the resulting conclusion.
Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm not sure he meant next day as day x+2, as within: day x (now), day x+1 (tomorrow) and day x+2 (next day).
I think next day was, well, just what you get just after midnight has ticked.
No what he meant to say is that dawn at which Anakin embarks for Geonosis and dawn at which Mace talks with Yoda are two different dawns. Therefore he concludes that it took at least 21 hours for Anakin and Amidala to get there. He doesn't explain why we should assume that those are two different dawns. It is obvious that it is one and the same dawn unless Mace waited 21 hours to finally decide to send help to Obi-Wan. Thus the actual trip was no more than an hour or so.
I see the problem here. The lighting in the senate scene at dawn seems rather faint, while it should be definitively brighter than what it was when all the club was having a meeting at Palpatine's office, while looking the late relayed message from Obi-Wan.
Sunrises are rather fast, and no matter transport Windu would have took, the mere fact of leaving Palpatine's office, and going into the alcove to meet Yoda, would a good number of minutes.
Even more, since Yoda was already there, while both Windu and Yoda were in the same room when Obi-Wan's message arrived.

In terms of bureaucracy, it is believable that it would take several hours to organize the senate session. Actually, I can't really picture, logically, such an important senate sessions occuring a mere tens of minute after the message scene.
Saying it is unlikely would be an understatement. What was about to happen in the senate is not something that occurs lightly. But, on the same hand, it is possible that a senate session was planned anyway, and about to start 15 minutes after the message scene.
It feels a tad rushed, but it could fit.

That said, if Robert's day long estimate is wrong, I don't see how those saying the dawns are the same could claim any travel time.
Because when the film leaves the senate, after Palpatine announcing the Grand Army and Yoda and Windu deciding what to do, there's no way to prove that Padmé and Anakin's arrival at Geonosis occurs immediately thereafter.
The camera cuts, and the cuts in SW are notorious for swallowing periods which can be rather long.

Robert's argumentation serves to show that the trip couldn't be quicker than X hours.

The rebuttal side, for a lack of better terms, has a good point as well, but can't prove much about the trip's duration anyway. Anakin and Padmé could have arrived at Geonosis while it could have been midday or even the afternoon at Coruscant, unless I missed a detail.
It could have occured the minute after we left the senate, an hour after, or many hours after.
No?






As a sidenote, Padmé says something along the lines that Windu and co won't be there (Geonosis) in time to save Obi-Wan, as they'd have to cross half the galaxy.
Which for one fits with the EU map, in terms of relative distance percentages.

Tatooine is extremely close to Geonosis, less than one parsec. So the distance between Tatooine and Coruscant is roughly half the galaxy, and that, again, Maul covered it in a matter of one day, more or less. I don't see a royal and diplomatic ship taking infinitely more time than that.

Another point: globally, I've noticed that the whole senatorial sector is lit at an angle of 45° around midday. When Anakin, Jar Jar and Padmé are in the damsel's apartments, the shadows are cast at 45°, and globally, considering the amount of lit scenes occuring before that scene, and the amount of lit scenes occuring after that scene, we're somewhere in the middle of the day.
This lighting angle can be found in multiple occasion in the senatorial sector.

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Post by 2046 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:15 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:Regarding the AOTC Tatooine-Geonosis timeline there is one point I never saw adequately addressed:
Image
According to Darkstar this event takes place at dawn which is also the time Anakin and Amidala embark for Geonosis.
Then, in an update, he also concludes that this:
Image
is also dawn which seems supported by the same kind of purple tinge.
But then he leaps to the conclusion {...}
Hold it right there.

Here is the actual sequence of pics.

The communication with Windu in Palpatine's office:

Image

Followed immediately by:

Image
Image

"The above scenes occur immediately following the couple's departure, with Mace Windu and Yoda still standing in the office. The scenes are noteworthy because we can quite easily see the angle of the light on the buildings and clouds behind the characters. Whatever the time of day, the sun is off to the left."

Later we have the Senate scenes, including this exterior shot:

Image

It looks like a moonlit night.

And then, the skyglow visible from the interior of the Senate building:

Image

Those are the same buildings outside the window as can be seen behind Palpatine in the earlier shot, and as you can see the sky is much darker.

Given the information available at the time there was no leaping to any conclusion, and I accept your apology on that matter, given or otherwise.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:08 pm

Darkstar wrote:Those are the same buildings outside the window as can be seen behind Palpatine in the earlier shot, and as you can see the sky is much darker.

Given the information available at the time there was no leaping to any conclusion, and I accept your apology on that matter, given or otherwise.
And the much darker sky can just as easily be explained by other shots not facing as closely to the east as the ones in Palpatines office.
In fact let's look at your own screencap from ROTS:
Image
The camera is thus facing close to the west actually and the east is somewhere behind it which would put the brightest tinge behind the camera.
The same goes for Mace's stroll down the corridor. If you look at the windows to the right of the image they are quite dark but the windows further behind show progressively brighter tinge. Take a look at the window just to the left of Mace's head. The tinge there is just as bright as the one in Palpatines office but not as visible since its off in the distance.
And I really don't see how you came to the conclusion that the buildings seen through the corridor are the same as the ones seen in Palpatines office. The one to the right looks similar to the one in Palpatines office in that it narrows down as it goes to the top but that is hardly conclusive on a planet covering city.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sunrises are rather fast, and no matter transport Windu would have took, the mere fact of leaving Palpatine's office, and going into the alcove to meet Yoda, would a good number of minutes.
Even more, since Yoda was already there, while both Windu and Yoda were in the same room when Obi-Wan's message arrived.

In terms of bureaucracy, it is believable that it would take several hours to organize the senate session. Actually, I can't really picture, logically, such an important senate sessions occuring a mere tens of minute after the message scene.
Saying it is unlikely would be an understatement. What was about to happen in the senate is not something that occurs lightly. But, on the same hand, it is possible that a senate session was planned anyway, and about to start 15 minutes after the message scene.
It feels a tad rushed, but it could fit.
Yes the senate session wold be very rushed but then again this was all Palpatines plan. On the other hand saying it's a different dawn means Mace waits 24 hours before even suggesting to get help for Obi-Wan which doesn't make sense.

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Post by Kazeite » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:39 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:And I really don't see how you came to the conclusion that the buildings seen through the corridor are the same as the ones seen in Palpatines office.
Kane... seriously... are you unable to see other characteristic buildings in those screenshots?

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:17 pm

Kazeite wrote:Kane... seriously... are you unable to see other characteristic buildings in those screenshots?
What characteristic buildings? We see the other buildings off in the distance in a very limited illumination. All we can make out are their silhouettes.
But please feel free to point out some distinct feature that proves we are dealing with the one and the same building.
Honestly, using building similarity on a planet densely covered with buildings which will inevitably lead to repetition of certain shapes.

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Post by 2046 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:47 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:And the much darker sky can just as easily be explained by other shots not facing as closely to the east as the ones in Palpatines office.
No, it can't. You can't have dark and moonlit in one direction and bright pink (with diffuse glow on the left side of the buildings) in the other direction. If the conditions during the Senate scene were remotely similar to the conditions during the Palpatine office scene, then the clouds over the Senate would've shown an obvious pink-purple glow. They do not.

Furthermore, as shown on the page, the sunrise in the Palp Office shots will be off to the left, out of our direct line of sight. Please read the page . . . so far responding to you has basically been a cut-and-paste job from the page itself, which has been all that was necessary.
In fact let's look at your own screencap from ROTS:
Image
The camera is thus facing close to the west actually and the east is somewhere behind it which would put the brightest tinge behind the camera.
Here's another example . . . . the information above is already discussed on my page. Remember this shot?:

Image

Don't pretend you're revealing something new, and don't pretend it doesn't fit my conclusions.
And I really don't see how you came to the conclusion that the buildings seen through the corridor are the same as the ones seen in Palpatines office. The one to the right looks similar to the one in Palpatines office in that it narrows down as it goes to the top but that is hardly conclusive on a planet covering city.
If you're arguing that the buildings behind Windu could be any buildings on the planet, and therefore that Palpatine's office and the Senate are not necessarily in the same area, then it is absurd to attempt to argue the time of day.

You should therefore focus your argument on attempting to prove that the Senate and Palpatine's office are not in the same timezone. If, on the other hand, you accept that they are in the same area, then you should stop wasting my time and concede to the conclusion given. I'm supposed to be working on another message anyway.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:27 pm

2046 wrote:No, it can't. You can't have dark and moonlit in one direction and bright pink (with diffuse glow on the left side of the buildings) in the other direction.
Um yes you can. Haven't you ever seen early dawn? The east is starting to get lit up while the sky on the west is still completely dark.
2046 wrote:If the conditions during the Senate scene were remotely similar to the conditions during the Palpatine office scene, then the clouds over the Senate would've shown an obvious pink-purple glow. They do not.
They do so on the right. It is not as pronounced since the camera is not facing directly at east. Try watching a sunrise or sunset sometimes. You'll notice that only clouds in the east (for sunrise) and west (for sunset) get illuminated and the effect diminishes as you move further to the opposite cardinal direction.
2046 wrote:Furthermore, as shown on the page, the sunrise in the Palp Office shots will be off to the left, out of our direct line of sight. Please read the page . . . so far responding to you has basically been a cut-and-paste job from the page itself, which has been all that was necessary.
Let me use your own graphics:
Image
According to your own graphics the morning sun will be behind the camera and so will the most pronounced glow. Daylight sun is somewhere to the left as is the evening sun. As your own graphics show the camera is facing towards north-west. If Palpatines office is facing closer to east that explains perfectly why glow is more pronounced. No need to use passage of an 24 hour rotation cycle as an explanation.
2046 wrote:Don't pretend you're revealing something new, and don't pretend it doesn't fit my conclusions.
I didn't say it didn't fit. The problem is your conclusion is not the only conclusion. You picked up this one because it conveniently reduces hyperdrive speed.
2046 wrote:If you're arguing that the buildings behind Windu could be any buildings on the planet, and therefore that Palpatine's office and the Senate are not necessarily in the same area, then it is absurd to attempt to argue the time of day.

You should therefore focus your argument on attempting to prove that the Senate and Palpatine's office are not in the same timezone. If, on the other hand, you accept that they are in the same area, then you should stop wasting my time and concede to the conclusion given. I'm supposed to be working on another message anyway.
I simply stated that there is no evidence these are the same buildings. It was not me who claimed useful information can be derived from this incident in the first place. The fact of the matter is you failed to provide any evidence we are dealing with the same buildings, that we are dealing with a different dawn and therefore failed to produce any timeframe for their trip. Which means you have no basis for your claim it takes at least 21 hours for Amidala's yacht to reach Geonosis.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:42 pm

2046 wrote:If you're arguing that the buildings behind Windu could be any buildings on the planet, and therefore that Palpatine's office and the Senate are not necessarily in the same area, then it is absurd to attempt to argue the time of day.
I missed this ludicrous strawman the first time. Never did I say Palpatine's office is not somewhere in the senate building merely that the corridor through which Mace passes on it's way to Yoda is not necessarily facing the same direction as Palpatine's office.
How you translate this into a suggestion that office and senate are not in the same time zone is beyond me.

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Post by Kazeite » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:42 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:What characteristic buildings?
These characteristic buildings:

Image

Image

And guess what? We can see them right outside the corridor too!

Image

I am very much surprised that I actually had to number them and point them out for you.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:56 pm

I didn't notice it, but yes, the buildings are the same. You can even spot the exact same window patterns.

Yet they're a bit darker when Mace comes around. It's impossible to be the same dawn. Sun rises on that side, it does not go down.

That said, isn't Palpatine's office, at that time, inside the senate?
From the size and position of the buildings, they couldn't be in another structure.

Oh, besides, what happens if the windows in the corridor are tinted?
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:56 pm

And again the only building you can see a resemblance is the one on the far right. 2 is only visible as a vague shape the same as 3. 4 is not even entirely visible. Nothing to be treated as unique on a city planet.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:59 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:And again the only building you can see a resemblance is the one on the far right. 2 is only visible as a vague shape the same as 3. 4 is not even entirely visible. Nothing to be treated as unique on a city planet.
No, the only one which is not conclusive is building 2. The light reflection on 3 is the same, and building 1 and 4 have the exact same shape and window pattern.

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