How long WAS the Endor trip????

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:02 am

Mr. Oragahn, Mike DiCenso:

Usually, if, while analysing a problem, a further issue appears, the further issue is only decided, if the answer to the issue is relevant for the analysis of the greater problem. Therefore, the first question, you should answer, is not, if the novel quote is supported or contradicted by the movie, but if the novel quote is really deciding for the question, how long the Tatooine-Alderaan trip was.

If the quote, even if it would have to be considered, can't really contribute to the answer of the main question, it is irrelevant, if the quote is to be considered.

And I think, the quote has only relevance insofar as we know from it, that the Tatooine-Alderaan trip couldn't have been longer than 1,5 weeks.

But it has no further relevance. I agree here with
    • Isolder74, who wrote:Three weeks time might have had nothing to do with the travel time at all. Han probably just threw out a number long enough away to, as he felt, give him plenty of time to get to Alderaan and back and give him plenty of lead time to get all he needs done before hand. 3 weeks could havge just been an easy to remember number and nothing more. Remember with 15% interest it is in Han best interest to fly back as soon as he could to pay Jabba. 3 weeks could have been simply don't charge me anything for 3 weeks and I'll have it to you in that time.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:21 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:Mr. Oragahn, Mike DiCenso:

Usually, if, while analysing a problem, a further issue appears, the further issue is only decided, if the answer to the issue is relevant for the analysis of the greater problem. Therefore, the first question, you should answer, is not, if the novel quote is supported or contradicted by the movie, but if the novel quote is really deciding for the question, how long the Tatooine-Alderaan trip was.

If the quote, even if it would have to be considered, can't really contribute to the answer of the main question, it is irrelevant, if the quote is to be considered.

And I think, the quote has only relevance insofar as we know from it, that the Tatooine-Alderaan trip couldn't have been longer than 1,5 weeks.

But it has no further relevance. I agree here with
    • Isolder74, who wrote:Three weeks time might have had nothing to do with the travel time at all. Han probably just threw out a number long enough away to, as he felt, give him plenty of time to get to Alderaan and back and give him plenty of lead time to get all he needs done before hand. 3 weeks could havge just been an easy to remember number and nothing more. Remember with 15% interest it is in Han best interest to fly back as soon as he could to pay Jabba. 3 weeks could have been simply don't charge me anything for 3 weeks and I'll have it to you in that time.
I didn't find this bit of info conclusive either. There could be several reasons why Han would need more time. Look, maybe he already was on some deal, and knew said deal would be there to pick in three weeks or so, and then suddenly there's those two guys who come see him in the cantina, and promise him a lot of money.
Actually, I think it was more than enough to cover his ass and pay Jabba.
But maybe Han had something else in mind, and wanted to buy some time, since he wasn't totally sure that he'd get the money promised by those two passengers of fortune.

But my point, anyway, is that I oppose Mike's logic. I think it's an obvious switch of standards.
You can't, at some point, claim that anything that contradict the movies is wrong (to make it simple), and then go into complicated and convoluted tirades to try to cram some element of information into a higher source which would, apparently, not allow for such an information to fit.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:27 pm

Except that the point is that the 3 weeks is not the time it takes for them to get there. It is the time to get, plus turnaround at Alderaan, and then the trip home. You and others keep missing this. Furthermore, I'am not coming up with anything convoluted, just pointing out that the novelization has information about the character's intent that is not available in the film due to time constraints.

Simply speaking, there is no contradiction to the three weeks simply because thereisnothing in the movie that does contradict it. Han's original plan to collect the money at Alderaan from Ben and the Alderaanian government simply got derailed as soon as it became apparent that the planet was destroyed, and then they get captured by the Death Star. The novelization simply let us in on this where the movie cannot.

I don't know why you can't wrap your head around it.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:07 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Except that the point is that the 3 weeks is not the time it takes for them to get there. It is the time to get, plus turnaround at Alderaan, and then the trip home. You and others keep missing this. Furthermore, I'am not coming up with anything convoluted, just pointing out that the novelization has information about the character's intent that is not available in the film due to time constraints.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
No, this is not the problem.

Besides, taking 1.5 weeks to make Tatooine -> Alderaan, and then the same time, roughly, to go back... is not likely, even if Alderaan had been on the distant other side of the galaxy, somewhere in an arm.
.
I think again you are getting confused here. I have never stated that 1.5 weeks was anything other than the maximum possible time going to or from Alderaan. I have posited that Han could have spent up to a week... or more, if need be, to turn the Falcon around, get new papers forged, maybe have a few brews with Chewie in the local bars somewhere in celebration, ect before heading back to Tatooine and pay off Jabba.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:38 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Except that the point is that the 3 weeks is not the time it takes for them to get there. It is the time to get, plus turnaround at Alderaan, and then the trip home. You and others keep missing this. Furthermore, I'am not coming up with anything convoluted, just pointing out that the novelization has information about the character's intent that is not available in the film due to time constraints.
You know Han's attention in the novelization precisely because in the novelization, he says three weeks, which I ask you to prove he could have said in the film as well.
If it can't fit, there's no intent, because the data is contradicted, as it can't exist. Precisely because we're not dealing with someone'd thoughts, but someone's dialogue with another character, which also happens in the film.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
No, this is not the problem.

Besides, taking 1.5 weeks to make Tatooine -> Alderaan, and then the same time, roughly, to go back... is not likely, even if Alderaan had been on the distant other side of the galaxy, somewhere in an arm.
.
I think again you are getting confused here. I have never stated that 1.5 weeks was anything other than the maximum possible time going to or from Alderaan. I have posited that Han could have spent up to a week... or more, if need be, to turn the Falcon around, get new papers forged, maybe have a few brews with Chewie in the local bars somewhere in celecbration, ect before heading back to Tatooine and pay off Jabba.
-Mike
I never said that you considered the three weeks to be anything else but a maximum.
But it's all clear that you clearly implied, and as a matter of fact, insisted that this time was more than likely right and there was no reason for Han to dick around if his ship was capable better speeds:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Eh? The one in TPM, achieved by Maul to reach Tatooine from Coruscant, seemed rather fast.
The EU distances aside, we have no canon knowledge of the actual distance between Tatooine and Coruscant. According to the second-tier canon of the ANH novelization, Han was expecting to get back to Tatooine from Alderaan (a core world) in 3 weeks to deliver Jabba his money, which suggests up to a week and a half of travel time there and back. This from the supposedly fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.
-Mike
Mike DiCenso wrote:From page 108 of the ANH novelization Han says this to Jabba:
Again the sardonic smile. "As you say, I'am too valuable to fry. But I've got a charter now and I can pay you back, plus a little extra. I just need some more time. I can give you a thousand on account, the rest in three weeks."
Why take three weeks to get back to Tatooine to give Jabba the money, if the Falcon can make the trip in only a day or two? I find it a bit of stretch that Han would be screwing around for nearly 3 weeks when he could just immediately get his cash, refuel the Falcon, maybe rest a day or two, and be back on Tatooine to settle the account with Jabba and be free of harassment.

As pointed out before, it is clear that we did not see the entirety of the Tat-Ald trip, so it is possible that several days went by with Luke being trained by Obi-Wan, and Artoo, Threepio and Chewie passing some of the time with the holo-chess.

Unlike the Sullust-Endor trip, there's no excuse with the Falcon since it is a large enough and modestly comfortable enough ship to support several people for days on end if need be.
-Mike
So to conclude, the "three weeks" dialogue information is not acceptable, its existence being made impossible by the higher canon.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:04 am

The problem with your whole reply is is tht it is based around the three-week round trip being contradicted by the higher canon.... however, it is not, and you have yet to provide anything more concrete than "It's not there in the movie dialog!".
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:28 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The problem with your whole reply is is tht it is based around the three-week round trip being contradicted by the higher canon.... however, it is not, and you have yet to provide anything more concrete than "It's not there in the movie dialog!".
-Mike
That is absurd Mike.
The information comes from a dialogue in the book, and that dialogue in the book is supposed to be the same in the film.
In the film, as far as I can recall, there's no place for Han to say he'll pay Jabba in three weeks.
So it's disputed, and invalid.
Prove that it fits beyond using flawed reasonings such as "it's insight" when it's clearly not.

Swede
Welcome the new member!
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:52 pm

Post by Swede » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:47 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is absurd Mike.
The information comes from a dialogue in the book, and that dialogue in the book is supposed to be the same in the film.
In the film, as far as I can recall, there's no place for Han to say he'll pay Jabba in three weeks.
So it's disputed, and invalid.
Prove that it fits beyond using flawed reasonings such as "it's insight" when it's clearly not.
Indeed. Another basic thing to remember is that the novels ranks lower than the screenplays and Han certainly makes no reference to 'three weeks' in the screenplay.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:09 pm

Han also, later in the novel, indicates that the trip would be same-day. There is quite the indication that Han didn't expect the transaction to be immediate, and he expected trouble from the local Imperial forces.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:19 pm

Narsil wrote:Han also, later in the novel, indicates that the trip would be same-day. There is quite the indication that Han didn't expect the transaction to be immediate, and he expected trouble from the local Imperial forces.
When he says something like we'll get to Alderaan in 0200 or something?

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:40 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:I did reply to your question. And yes, it does fit in with the film since we have such a huge potential unseen time for the Falcon's trip to Alderaan. So Han's novelization statement makes sense when you take all the factors into account as I've previously noted.
-Mike
My problem is that right now, I don't have ANH anymore, so I can't check if it could have been possible for us to pretend that Han spoke about the three weeks when talking to Jabba.

If it didn't happen then when it should have, if it's impossible to pretend that the camera cut before Han pronounced the last bit of his speech to Jabba which would include the "3 weeks", then it's not valid, not matter the complex argumentation you're making - which for all I can say, I couldn't agree with.

We know it's the same scene. The film takes precedence. There's no argumentation possible on that. If the film clearly shows that Han could have never spoke about the three weeks, then we're fixed and that bit of information is not receivable.
It occurs to me that if that's the attitude that you take towards the novelization, then you also must discard the "million star systems" quote from Tarkin as well, since that dialog is supposed to be spoken during a fairly well-placed scene in the movie as well as in the book (it's during Leia and Tarkin's little exchange right before the Death Star destroys Alderaan).
-Mike

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:48 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:When he says something like we'll get to Alderaan in 0200 or something?
Exactly, and no one ever says 0200 hours if they mean 'in a week and a half from now'.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:56 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Narsil wrote:Han also, later in the novel, indicates that the trip would be same-day. There is quite the indication that Han didn't expect the transaction to be immediate, and he expected trouble from the local Imperial forces.
When he says something like we'll get to Alderaan in 0200 or something?
No, that wouldn't be possible since that could be stated several days later after they've departed from Tatooine. As far as any novelization quotes, Han before they get to where Alderaan was never says anything about getting any money that same day. Only while bargining in the cantina does Han initially try to get the money up front, but he does not say anything about getting to Alderaan that same day.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cock_Knocker
Bridge Officer
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:07 am

Post by Cock_Knocker » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:28 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:No, that wouldn't be possible since that could stated several days later after they've departed from Tatooine. As far as any novelization quotes, Han before they get to where Alderaan was never says anything about getting any money that same day. Only while bargining in the cantina does Han initially try to get the money up front, but he does not say anything about getting to Alderaan that same day.
In "The Krytos Trap", an eight hour flight time between Alderaan and Tatooine is established.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:13 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:It occurs to me that if that's the attitude that you take towards the novelization, then you also must discard the "million star systems" quote from Tarkin as well,
Isn't it also stated in the movie?
I seem to recall Tarkin mentioning the million start system (or worlds).
If it's stated in the movie, it cannot be discarded...

Post Reply