Sovereign vs 1 Star Destroyer?

[Kahless]

Thought I would start up a little VS thread since I didn't see one on the front page!

Scene: The Solar System since we know exact figures for it. Combatants start out on opposite sides of the Solar System.

Combatants: 1 Sovereign class starship and 1 bog standard Star Destroyer from the films

Rules: No leaving the battlefield or using short range FTL. Sublight speeds for both sides only.

Who would win?

[2046]

Is the Sovereign tasked with defense of Earth, or are they just both gunning for each other and collateral damage is irrelevant?

In any case, we know without a doubt that the Sovereign has the weapons range advantage to an extraordinary degree, assuming a non-EU canon policy.

[Kahless]

Is the Sovereign tasked with defense of Earth, or are they just both gunning for each other and collateral damage is irrelevant?

They're just gunning for each other since the setting is just for our convenience.

[Trinoya]

SD gets pwned.

In like... 10 minutes. The fed knows where it is, has a better speed, is on home ground, and can most likely fire from such a significant distance that with out some serious help the SD just gets disabled, boarded, and the crew imprisoned.

Heck, with no FTL, and with collateral damage not a problem, couldn't the feds just blow up Sol, let the SD get caught in the blast, and then warp just under the speed of light (still not FTL) away? That close to the speed of light, it will pretty much be able to out run the blast, which, theoretically, wouldn't really effect the outer solar system all that much to begin with. Just saying if worse came to worse.

[GStone]

Winner, Sovereign. SD is scanned, which includes the apparent speed they're using. Sov flies underneath and fires phasers, destroying the hangar. As it comes out from underneath, a few photons take out the engines.

[Kane Starkiller]

100 of ISDs point defense turbolasers which are in the megaton range (compared with 6Mt acclamator) shower the Sovereign no matter what it's approach is and turn it into a wisp of superheated plasma that splashes harmlessly on ISDs shields.

[l33telboi]

This is something I've been wondering about for some time now. I've seen the figures the Wars side presents, indeed Kane here is as good a example of one debating for the Wars side as anyone. And then I've seen the Trek side argue against those figures, of course.

But that still leaves the issues of how powerful the weapons on the ISD are wide open. So, does anyone here have any specifics?

[Praeothmin]

100 of ISDs point defense turbolasers which are in the megaton range (compared with 6Mt acclamator)

I've always found those numbers ludicrous, and have never seen them backed up in any way by the movies.
For example, according to the AotC ICS, the Jedi starfighter has weapons in the 1 Kiloton range... O_O
So I guess that means that Tie Fighters and X-Wings also have such powerful weapons.
How come no explosion coming for the Fighters weapons were ever near Kiloton levels?
How can the MF in ANH lose its rear deflectors after only 30 or so Kiloton shots, but that it takes 2 Megaton level shots from an ISD to lose the same shield?
Since in both instances, the goal was to let them escape, I will assume that both examples weren't using full-power shots.

Even Brian Young's Turbolaser commentary pages calculated what amounted to Kiloton level shots that destoryed the incorrectly-scaled asteroids.
And some of those asteroid vaporizing shots seemed to come from the dorsal weapons of an ISD, which, according to the original SW ICS only has HTL.

So my question is this:
Where the frak did those inflated Megaton-range point defense guns come from????

[Kane Starkiller]

This is something I've been wondering about for some time now. I've seen the figures the Wars side presents, indeed Kane here is as good a example of one debating for the Wars side as anyone. And then I've seen the Trek side argue against those figures, of course.

Nice trick declaring all official sources you don't like as "Wars side" as if ICS is somehow equal to a bunch of fans who don't like it. Very cute.

But that still leaves the issues of how powerful the weapons on the ISD are wide open. So, does anyone here have any specifics?

It's wide open to you since you pretend that anything you don't like comes from the "Wars side" even though it is official SW material. ICS by the way also offers plenty of specifics.

So my question is this:
Where the frak did those inflated Megaton-range point defense guns come from????

Incredible cross sections: Attack of the clones. And you really provided no evidence they are inflated.

[l33telboi]

Nice trick declaring all official sources you don't like as "Wars side" as if ICS is somehow equal to a bunch of fans who don't like it. Very cute.

I can't remember ever saying that I've declared all official sources I don't like as "Wars side", and neither have I even mentioned the ICS yet. Seems to me that these are the things you'd hope I'd say, not what I'm actually saying.

What I'm referring to with "wars side" is the fanboys of that verse, every franchise has them. Typically you can identify them by the fact that they only debate whatever franchise they support, they never argue for the opposite side (even when they'd win) and generally treat everyone that doesn't hold their franchise as sacred as they do with hostility backed up by a healty dose of nerdrage.

Even with this latest post you prove that you fit that category quite well.

It's wide open to you since you pretend that anything you don't like comes from the "Wars side" even though it is official SW material. ICS by the way also offers plenty of specifics.

A mention of the ICS again? Odd.

I feel I need to start this off by pointing out that I posed a question, I didn't state anything. This can be seen by the fact that there are questionmarks after the lines I typed. I'm not interested in saying anything, merely listening to what others have to say.

I should also point out that I'm more interested in consitancy then what one EU source says. That means that the ICS is about as important to me as any other EU novel. Though generally when we're talking about a verse with this much EU material, I usually start by looking at the primary canon.

[Praeothmin]

Incredible cross sections: Attack of the clones. And you really provided no evidence they are inflated.

And you've provided no evidence that the figures appearing in the AotC ICS can be applied to an ISD.

But wait, I've already given some explanation, perhaps you've missed it:

Even Brian Young's Turbolaser commentary pages calculated what amounted to Kiloton level shots that destoryed the incorrectly-scaled asteroids.
And some of those asteroid vaporizing shots seemed to come from the dorsal weapons of an ISD, which, according to the original SW ICS only has HTL.

Let me expand then.
The asteroids are incorrectly scaled because they are compared to a 40 meter long MF, which most (90% or more) SFX shots show as 22 to 26 meters long, 30 meters at the most.
This discussion has been had here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ht=scaling

So even those Kiloton level shots are higher then they should be, because the estimation of the asteroid's volumes are too high as well.
And as I said, some of these shots are angled so that they appear to come from the dorsal section, i.e. from the HTLs, not the point-defense guns.
And I don't believe for one second that these HTLs power can be turned down 1 million times (which is what it would need to be for 200 Gigaton guns to fire only in the Kilotons range).

[Jedi Master Spock]

Incredible cross sections: Attack of the clones. And you really provided no evidence they are inflated.

My question, personally, is why the guns actually used by fighters cause fiery explosions to erupt from the surface of capital ships they attack.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Incredible cross sections: Attack of the clones. And you really provided no evidence they are inflated.

My question, personally, is why the guns actually used by fighters cause fiery explosions to erupt from the surface of capital ships they attack.

Probably for the same reasons that the fixed gunnery positions fire bolts which can pierce through the thinner hull that surrounds the cannons on a Venator. I refer to the scene where three red bolts literally rip the combat station, with a firepower which is not even in the gigajoule range, and with the bolts showing absolutely no change in luminosity nor shape before and after hull penetration.
Sure, as I said, it was thinner there, but there just so much you can claim about armour resistance by working from these examples.

Now, they could be some kind of solid projectile encased in some glowy energy skin, much like torpedoes tend to be, but ther sheer low speed makes them a poor penetrator anyway.

[Kane Starkiller]

And you've provided no evidence that the figures appearing in the AotC ICS can be applied to an ISD.

Do you think that ISD will have weapons many orders of magnitude lesser than Acclamator? What figures exist for the Sovereign then?

And I don't believe for one second that these HTLs power can be turned down 1 million times (which is what it would need to be for 200 Gigaton guns to fire only in the Kilotons range).

What you believe is irrelevant. Death Star scaled it's shots down to Mon Calamari cruisers.

My question, personally, is why the guns actually used by fighters cause fiery explosions to erupt from the surface of capital ships they attack.

Fiery explosions like these:






?
If your argument is that "fiery" explosions preclude the possibility of kiloton level firepower for SW fighters you should at least have the honesty of applying the same criteria to ST ships.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Fiery explosions like these:

Quite like those, yes.

If your argument is that "fiery" explosions preclude the possibility of kiloton level firepower for SW fighters you should at least have the honesty of applying the same criteria to ST ships.

The problem is the question of where the fiery explosion is coming from - although the problem of fiery explosions, rather than incandescent flashes of light, being the standard produces its own problems.

Is the fiery explosion something in or on the hull exploding? Because it doesn't look like a shield interaction to me. In all the Star Trek cases you've displayed, I believe fiery explosions are an indication of something on or within the hull being damaged, and in one of the Star Wars cases - namely those dealing with the Death Star - we have the good luck to look in on what's happening on the other side of the fiery surface explosions, and it seems to again correspond to destructive effects.

And this is a problem, because those are fighters attacking.