Starfleet military vs. RL military

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Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Opecoiler » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:27 pm

A few scenarios, to compare the quality of Starfleet personnel to RL military servicemen.

1: The Starfleet force sent to hold the communications relay on AR-558 is replaced by a company of US Marines with standard equipment. When the Defiant arrives several months later, what does it find?

2: A simple squad vs. squad battle between a Starfleet security force and a modern US army squad. Both have their standard weapons. The battle takes place in a Vietnam-esque jungle.

3: Fistfight between Starfleet security guard and American soldier.

Who wins in all of them?

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Post by Roondar » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:00 pm

1: Very little but Jem Hadar.

Note that this has nothing to do with the US troops ability to fight and everything to do with a lack of defenses against certain tricks and a lack of resupplies.

Specifically, they'd run out of ammo, food and water ages before the Defiant shows up. Failing that, US soldiers do not have treknobabble/technology to stop the Jem Hadar from using transporters against them, bombing them straight out of orbit, etc.

Subnote: if you meant this scenario to mean "US troops + Starfleet resources" (i.e. replicators, transporter inhibitors etc) you do realize that you are no longer comparing US troops vs Jem Hadar ones.

Subnote 2: On the other hand, US tactics seem more advanced than either Starfleets or the Jem Hadars. Heck, US tactics seem more advanced than pretty much any and all forces observed in Sci-Fi on TV and in movies, ever. Then again, tactics only go so far when your opponent can beam you into space.

2: A dishonest matchup to say the least, comparing the equivalent of 'military police' (which ST starship security is, at best. at worst they are more like regular police) with a military force will probably lead to defeat of the ST forces. It will be a closer match than you might think tho..

See, this matchup does depend a bit on the use of tricorders and such. These could provide rather crucial intel for the ST forces. Well that and a tree is hardly good cover versus a weapon noted for it's effectiveness vs water-containing objects ;)

3: I'd call this one a draw. Some ST security dudes have shown acceptable or even good hand to hand fighting capacity, some haven't. Likewise, some soldiers are going to be better than others.

I guess the inevitable conclusion is, as it always has been, that Starfleet relies more on it's fleet assets than it's ground assets. It's no secret that unshielded, unprotected humans fare poorly against bullets. On the other hand, the US soldiers are clearly not capable of protecting themselves against the weapons used by Starfleet and it's ilk either.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:36 pm

Roondar wrote:Heck, US tactics seem more advanced than pretty much any and all forces observed in Sci-Fi on TV and in movies, ever.
Heck, I'd say any modern miliatry force's tactics are superior to those observed on TV or in Movies.
I mean, I don't think anyone would disagree (anyone with half a brain at least :)... ) that the US Army would fare much better against the Ewoks, for example, as the Stormtroopers did.

I'd even say that real armies VS movie depiction of real armies would see the victory of the real armies.

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Post by Opecoiler » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:23 pm

Roondar wrote:1: Very little but Jem Hadar.

Note that this has nothing to do with the US troops ability to fight and everything to do with a lack of defenses against certain tricks and a lack of resupplies.
Are you conceeding that Trek ground forces would get their butt kicked by modern military forces in a straight battle?
Specifically, they'd run out of ammo, food and water ages before the Defiant shows up.
Great, assume that their logistics suddenly vanish for no reason. If soldiers are given orders to hold territory, they'll be supplied with what they need to hold that territory with. The scenario means that Federation logistics (Replicators, etc....) are replaced with American logistics (Water tanks, ammunition boxes, etc...)
Failing that, US soldiers do not have treknobabble/technology to stop the Jem Hadar from using transporters against them, bombing them straight out of orbit, etc.
Provide proof that they'd do this. They didn't use orbital bombardment against the Starfleet personnel defending the array, and there's no mention of transport inhibitors around the array.
Subnote: if you meant this scenario to mean "US troops + Starfleet resources" (i.e. replicators, transporter inhibitors etc) you do realize that you are no longer comparing US troops vs Jem Hadar ones.
I don't mean "US Troops+Starfleet resources", I mean "US troops+basic logistics". Granted, their logistical containers will be cruder and bulkier than Starfleet ones, but it would be utterly ridiculous not to have them there.
Subnote 2: On the other hand, US tactics seem more advanced than either Starfleets or the Jem Hadars. Heck, US tactics seem more advanced than pretty much any and all forces observed in Sci-Fi on TV and in movies, ever. Then again, tactics only go so far when your opponent can beam you into space.
How often have the Jem'Hadar beamed enemies into space? Did they beam enemies into space at AR-558?
2: A dishonest matchup to say the least, comparing the equivalent of 'military police' (which ST starship security is, at best. at worst they are more like regular police) with a military force will probably lead to defeat of the ST forces. It will be a closer match than you might think tho..
So you're admitting that Star Trek ground troops are not nearly as well trained as RL ones?
See, this matchup does depend a bit on the use of tricorders and such. These could provide rather crucial intel for the ST forces. Well that and a tree is hardly good cover versus a weapon noted for it's effectiveness vs water-containing objects ;)
Nor it is good cover versus an explosive grenade that will turn the tree into just more shrapnel.
I guess the inevitable conclusion is, as it always has been, that Starfleet relies more on it's fleet assets than it's ground assets. It's no secret that unshielded, unprotected humans fare poorly against bullets. On the other hand, the US soldiers are clearly not capable of protecting themselves against the weapons used by Starfleet and it's ilk either.
Not from direct hits at high power, no. But a modern soldier has body armor to protect himself from near-misses and shrapnel-something that Starfleet personnel lack dearly.[/url]

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Post by Roondar » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:01 pm

Opecoiler wrote:
Roondar wrote:1: Very little but Jem Hadar.

Note that this has nothing to do with the US troops ability to fight and everything to do with a lack of defenses against certain tricks and a lack of resupplies.
Are you conceeding that Trek ground forces would get their butt kicked by modern military forces in a straight battle?
Not at all. We do not know enough about Trek ground forces to conclude that. One incident at AR558 is hardly conclusive of the whole. Especially since we know from canon that their 'prime worlds' are indeed defended by different things than AR558.

As an example, I'm not basing my ideas on ground force capabilities and tactics of the SW empire on the downright pathetic show they had at Endor either.

On the other hand, I was expecting you to shout 'conceed they get beaten' at your earliest convenience. Funny how that works.
Specifically, they'd run out of ammo, food and water ages before the Defiant shows up.
Great, assume that their logistics suddenly vanish for no reason. If soldiers are given orders to hold territory, they'll be supplied with what they need to hold that territory with. The scenario means that Federation logistics (Replicators, etc....) are replaced with American logistics (Water tanks, ammunition boxes, etc...)
You should have made that a tad more clear in your OP then. A company of soldiers does not on average carry with it food and water or heaven forbid ammo to last months. You know, in real life. Where they have to get resupplied quite often.

Or did you think the US military was spending billions a month on Iraq just for fun?
Failing that, US soldiers do not have treknobabble/technology to stop the Jem Hadar from using transporters against them, bombing them straight out of orbit, etc.
Provide proof that they'd do this. They didn't use orbital bombardment against the Starfleet personnel defending the array, and there's no mention of transport inhibitors around the array.
Provide proof they wouldn't or shut up about known capabilities of your enemy. Waving your hand about to say "but they didn't mention the standard defenses against transporters used in ST this time even though they we know those very things where used during other ground assaults where no one transported" is not evidence.

Enemies have been beamed away in ST. Transporters have been used offensively. More proof is not needed.

As too bombardment, that too has been done before. There could be a ton of reasons not to bombard the Starfleet forces, including the knowledge that the Federation can deploy theatre shielding. Which the US soldiers would not have.
Subnote: if you meant this scenario to mean "US troops + Starfleet resources" (i.e. replicators, transporter inhibitors etc) you do realize that you are no longer comparing US troops vs Jem Hadar ones.
I don't mean "US Troops+Starfleet resources", I mean "US troops+basic logistics". Granted, their logistical containers will be cruder and bulkier than Starfleet ones, but it would be utterly ridiculous not to have them there.
Basic logistics here meaning 'the backing of an above average nation state' then? Contrary to your belief companies of soldiers don't go in with enough stuff to last them months. Not on Earth any way.
Subnote 2: On the other hand, US tactics seem more advanced than either Starfleets or the Jem Hadars. Heck, US tactics seem more advanced than pretty much any and all forces observed in Sci-Fi on TV and in movies, ever. Then again, tactics only go so far when your opponent can beam you into space.
How often have the Jem'Hadar beamed enemies into space? Did they beam enemies into space at AR-558?
Transporters have been used offensively. Not wanting to hear this won't change that.
2: A dishonest matchup to say the least, comparing the equivalent of 'military police' (which ST starship security is, at best. at worst they are more like regular police) with a military force will probably lead to defeat of the ST forces. It will be a closer match than you might think tho..
So you're admitting that Star Trek ground troops are not nearly as well trained as RL ones?
I'm doing nothing of the sort. Try reading what I write next time. Starship security =/= Starfleet groundforces. This has been established on DS9 quite clearly.

What I am doing is noting that you are pitting the equivalent of the local police against trained soldiers.
See, this matchup does depend a bit on the use of tricorders and such. These could provide rather crucial intel for the ST forces. Well that and a tree is hardly good cover versus a weapon noted for it's effectiveness vs water-containing objects ;)
Nor it is good cover versus an explosive grenade that will turn the tree into just more shrapnel.
Lucky us then that the US military doesn't give out it's troops dozens of grenades each. And that in real life a tree in fact can provide quite effective shielding against anti-personal grenades. Sure, it might not always work but it'll work better than vs a phaser.

Not too mention that wide-beam stun is quite the equalizer here.
I guess the inevitable conclusion is, as it always has been, that Starfleet relies more on it's fleet assets than it's ground assets. It's no secret that unshielded, unprotected humans fare poorly against bullets. On the other hand, the US soldiers are clearly not capable of protecting themselves against the weapons used by Starfleet and it's ilk either.
Not from direct hits at high power, no. But a modern soldier has body armor to protect himself from near-misses and shrapnel-something that Starfleet personnel lack dearly.
Nothing a wide-beam stun won't deal with.

And again, if memory serves me the average soldier won't have dozens of grenades. A starfleet security dude would have a weapon capable of a similar effect for far more than a few shots.

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Post by GStone » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:25 am

I think it's important to remember that when you're dealing with species with hand weapons that are capable of making solid matter disappear, wearing armor to protect against it in the traditional sense makes no sense. And there are only certain substances that are highly phaser/disrupter resistant, but when you try to attach them into wearable armor, the parts that aren't made of those highly resistant materials will be taken out and the resistant parts will fall, leaving you exposed.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by 2046 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:01 pm

Opecoiler wrote:1: The Starfleet force sent to hold the communications relay on AR-558 is replaced by a company of US Marines with standard equipment. When the Defiant arrives several months later, what does it find?
Hopefully a blown-up comm relay and, more hopefully, Marines in hiding. Alternately, just Jem'Hadar.

I don't know the full loadout of a company of marines (primarily regarding ammo stores), but assuming they have a weapons platoon with them they'll have some nice toys starting off, up to and including this _though the terrain there would make its use somewhat tricky).

However, after five months of frequent combat, these toys would probably be out of ammo.

That said, though, the Marines wouldn't last five months. The Starfleet force on AR-558 and the Jem'Hadar had rendered one another's tricorders useless via setting some up for intense jamming purposes. Without tricorders, the Marines would be in big trouble.

As examples, the Jem'Hadar could easily locate each individual and track their movements, meaning recon scouting could be a death sentence. Further, any attempt to set traps (a la Sisko's maneuver with the "Houdini" cloaked anti-personnel mines) or any sort of sensor apparatus would fail.

Worse yet, Marine forces would be hammered by the Houdinis with no hope of that ending. And, if the Jem'Hadar did attack, all they would need to do is to shroud themselves, thereby coming in completely cloaked. The Marines would be utterly unprepared for this.

Basically we've seen pieces of this in movie form . . . it's called "Predator".

Best case, the Marines blow the comm relay (if they can) and run like hell.
2: A simple squad vs. squad battle between a Starfleet security force and a modern US army squad. Both have their standard weapons. The battle takes place in a Vietnam-esque jungle.
My Star Trek Ground Combat page is basically a hugely expanded version of my response to a similarly silly Canadian Army vs. Starfleet post. For your purposes, the second half or so is the most interesting.
3: Fistfight between Starfleet security guard and American soldier.
Could go either way, just as in any fight. Training helps, but is never a guarantor of victory.

The dictates of plot have sometimes shown Starfleet security officers getting stomped fairly easily, whereas other times they've either taken longer (e.g. the dude who Commodore Decker had trouble with) or won. We know the security chiefs are generally relatively badass (Yar, Worf, Tuvok) compared to who they've faced.

A generic American soldier gets significant hand-to-hand training, but not enough to constitute an instant asswhoop of everyone else on the planet. I'm not saying some chick who does Tae-Bo is gonna come in and stomp a soldier, but generic American soldiers can lose in individual hand combat even against relatively untrained opponents, depending on situation.

So again, even if we assume that Starfleet security gets little more than Tae-Bo, it could go either way.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:25 pm

2046 wrote:
Hopefully a blown-up comm relay and, more hopefully, Marines in hiding. Alternately, just Jem'Hadar.
Wow, your not desperatly tied to Trek winning everything now are you?
I don't know the full loadout of a company of marines (primarily regarding ammo stores), but assuming they have a weapons platoon with them they'll have some nice toys starting off, up to and including this _though the terrain there would make its use somewhat tricky).
It's very easy for the troops to be given extensive ammo supplies. And the Predator can be used quite easily in that terrain, after all Afghanistan has similar terrain and they use them a fair bit. Hell you could fire a Carl G in there and be fine.
However, after five months of frequent combat, these toys would probably be out of ammo.
Given the Jemmies tactic of just charging in, the troops are going to wipe them out in short order. Without consuming their basic personal loadout.
That said, though, the Marines wouldn't last five months. The Starfleet force on AR-558 and the Jem'Hadar had rendered one another's tricorders useless via setting some up for intense jamming purposes. Without tricorders, the Marines would be in big trouble.
I see your not familiar with EW equipment. Even if they setup a basic HF radio and start pumping out shit, that's probably enough to jam the Jemmies.
As examples, the Jem'Hadar could easily locate each individual and track their movements, meaning recon scouting could be a death sentence. Further, any attempt to set traps (a la Sisko's maneuver with the "Houdini" cloaked anti-personnel mines) or any sort of sensor apparatus would fail.
Of course they did that in the actual episode, right....right? And the mines were a bloody joke. The purpose of a minefield is to deny ground to the enemy and funnel him into certain areas. The houdini's didn't even do that and they killed few men, they are a terror weapon. But to people used to seeing soldiers literally torn apart by .50 cal and light cannon fire, this will be a minor inconvienance.
Worse yet, Marine forces would be hammered by the Houdinis with no hope of that ending. And, if the Jem'Hadar did attack, all they would need to do is to shroud themselves, thereby coming in completely cloaked. The Marines would be utterly unprepared for this.
Mines.
Basically we've seen pieces of this in movie form . . . it's called "Predator".

Best case, the Marines blow the comm relay (if they can) and run like hell.
They can blow the comm relay by simply using WP grenades that are standard kit.
My Star Trek Ground Combat page is basically a hugely expanded version of my response to a similarly silly Canadian Army vs. Starfleet post. For your purposes, the second half or so is the most interesting.
And it's just as much BS now as it was when you wrote it. Lack of military knowledge+bloated opinion of ST=fail.
Could go either way, just as in any fight. Training helps, but is never a guarantor of victory.

The dictates of plot have sometimes shown Starfleet security officers getting stomped fairly easily, whereas other times they've either taken longer (e.g. the dude who Commodore Decker had trouble with) or won. We know the security chiefs are generally relatively badass (Yar, Worf, Tuvok) compared to who they've faced.

A generic American soldier gets significant hand-to-hand training, but not enough to constitute an instant asswhoop of everyone else on the planet. I'm not saying some chick who does Tae-Bo is gonna come in and stomp a soldier, but generic American soldiers can lose in individual hand combat even against relatively untrained opponents, depending on situation.

So again, even if we assume that Starfleet security gets little more than Tae-Bo, it could go either way.
Umm no. The American soldier is going to have vastly more practical experiance with HtH than a redshirt and they get taught all the dirty tricks. When was the last time you saw a redshirt fracture someones shin to win a fight?

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:34 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I see your not familiar with EW equipment. Even if they setup a basic HF radio and start pumping out shit, that's probably enough to jam the Jemmies.
Although I too thnk that the US soldiers would wound up victorious in AR558, I do think in this particular case, the jamming part, is more assumptions on your part then actual fact.
But, with their obviously superior training, I do think the soldiers take this one...

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Post by consequences » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:49 pm

GStone wrote:I think it's important to remember that when you're dealing with species with hand weapons that are capable of making solid matter disappear, wearing armor to protect against it in the traditional sense makes no sense. And there are only certain substances that are highly phaser/disrupter resistant, but when you try to attach them into wearable armor, the parts that aren't made of those highly resistant materials will be taken out and the resistant parts will fall, leaving you exposed.
Well, for one, there's the fact that they almost never use vaporisation settings against humanoid targets in TNG or later. Or to remove cover that humanoid targets are cowering behind for that matter.

For two, we've never seen the kind of accuracy that would be needed to reliably hit flexible connecting segments on someone actively trying not to die. In fact, it's highly unlikely that Starfleet trains for such accuracy considering the general effects of their weapon of choice. Hit them somewhere, and the target either gets stunned, killed or vaporised according to the setting.

Three, forcing your enemy to more rapidly burn through his available power by upping the setting is a worthwhile goal in and of itself, presuming that you can either get the encumbrance down to acceptable levels of performance degradation, and/or train/enhance your troops to compensate.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by GStone » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:48 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Umm no. The American soldier is going to have vastly more practical experiance with HtH than a redshirt and they get taught all the dirty tricks. When was the last time you saw a redshirt fracture someones shin to win a fight?
We aren't talking redshirts. It's Starfleet security. Aside from training with people, in TNG: Code of Honor, Yar says they train with the computer, using a program that will eventually learn how to defeat them. So, you have to change your tactics and increase your skill. In VOY: Initiations, Chakotay says:

CHAKOTAY: My name was a gift from my tribe. I cherish it every day of my life, just as I cherish the Federation uniform.
KAR: I should respect you because you wear that uniform?
CHAKOTAY: Your name, my uniform, not much difference. We both have to earn them.
KAR: What did you have to do to earn your uniform?
CHAKOTAY: Study. Years of study. Learning about science and ships and navigation.
KAR: I suppose they don't expect you to prove your battle skills.
CHAKOTAY: No. They prepared us to defend ourselves in battle. They prepared us very well. And we had to pass many difficult tests before we were given the right to wear the uniform.

We have also seen starfleet, particularly humans, take on fighters such as klingons and jem'hadar and have lasted to varying degrees in hand-to-hand. To suggest that they wouldn't have a decent amount of skill when you might fight species that are bigger, stronger and tougher than you, is inaccurate.
consequences wrote:Well, for one, there's the fact that they almost never use vaporisation settings against humanoid targets in TNG or later. Or to remove cover that humanoid targets are cowering behind for that matter.
Without knowing more of the specifics, I would still assume that a vaporizing shot would be more costly in terms of energy usage than a regular kill or stun shot. Just like it's more to switch between rates of fire modes for slug throwers. In the end, the energy from the power packs are the real 'ammo' for a phaser, regardless of whether there's some special crystal that gives you particular subatomic particles or not.
For two, we've never seen the kind of accuracy that would be needed to reliably hit flexible connecting segments on someone actively trying not to die. In fact, it's highly unlikely that Starfleet trains for such accuracy considering the general effects of their weapon of choice. Hit them somewhere, and the target either gets stunned, killed or vaporised according to the setting.
We have seen Janeway and Seven use phasers to hit a flying disk in velocity, as well as that game where there are colored lights quickly flying around and you have to hit them when they're a certain color, as you stand in the middle of the room. Riker and Picard were seen doing it once and Worf and Guinan were, too. I just can't remember the name of the eps. And the size of those lights were not that much bigger than the diameter of a phaser stream.
Three, forcing your enemy to more rapidly burn through his available power by upping the setting is a worthwhile goal in and of itself, presuming that you can either get the encumbrance down to acceptable levels of performance degradation, and/or train/enhance your troops to compensate.
And just how do you suggest you get that to happen? By upping the ante and using your phasers on conical or widebeam settings? All the other side has to do is move back, while their barrier is going away and quickly shoot through the open space, hitting your barrier and/or you.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Kazeite » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:17 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Wow, your not desperatly tied to Trek winning everything now are you?
If you actually knew his conclusions regarding ST-v-SW, you'd know your accusation is incorrect and quite silly.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:06 pm

Kazeite wrote: If you actually knew his conclusions regarding ST-v-SW, you'd know your accusation is incorrect and quite silly.
I have read his site and I took another look again today to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I don't see anything to persuade me from my original conclusion.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:07 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Although I too thnk that the US soldiers would wound up victorious in AR558, I do think in this particular case, the jamming part, is more assumptions on your part then actual fact.
But, with their obviously superior training, I do think the soldiers take this one...
Given that ST scanners are frequently disrupted by EM radiation, the troops could probably strip the sheilding off a generator cable and use that to jam them.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:16 pm

GStone wrote: We aren't talking redshirts. It's Starfleet security. Aside from training with people, in TNG: Code of Honor, Yar says they train with the computer, using a program that will eventually learn how to defeat them. So, you have to change your tactics and increase your skill. In VOY: Initiations, Chakotay says:
Redshirts are security, yes they switched to yellow uniforms in TNG but the term has carried over.
CHAKOTAY: My name was a gift from my tribe. I cherish it every day of my life, just as I cherish the Federation uniform.
KAR: I should respect you because you wear that uniform?
CHAKOTAY: Your name, my uniform, not much difference. We both have to earn them.
KAR: What did you have to do to earn your uniform?
CHAKOTAY: Study. Years of study. Learning about science and ships and navigation.
KAR: I suppose they don't expect you to prove your battle skills.
CHAKOTAY: No. They prepared us to defend ourselves in battle. They prepared us very well. And we had to pass many difficult tests before we were given the right to wear the uniform.
I'm sorry, what does that tells us besides the fact that Chakotay thinks it's difficult? What military prowess has he shown?
We have also seen starfleet, particularly humans, take on fighters such as klingons and jem'hadar and have lasted to varying degrees in hand-to-hand. To suggest that they wouldn't have a decent amount of skill when you might fight species that are bigger, stronger and tougher than you, is inaccurate.
Yes, Jemmies who run screaming into battle and either shoot you or impale you in a melee or the Klingons who run screaming into battle with a shitty sword. Neither of those races has demonstrated anything resembling a useful HtH skill. They don't even demonstrated competant bayonet training.

Without knowing more of the specifics, I would still assume that a vaporizing shot would be more costly in terms of energy usage than a regular kill or stun shot. Just like it's more to switch between rates of fire modes for slug throwers. In the end, the energy from the power packs are the real 'ammo' for a phaser, regardless of whether there's some special crystal that gives you particular subatomic particles or not.
Oh your good. Although switching from automatic to single shot doesn't actually require anymore energy.
We have seen Janeway and Seven use phasers to hit a flying disk in velocity, as well as that game where there are colored lights quickly flying around and you have to hit them when they're a certain color, as you stand in the middle of the room. Riker and Picard were seen doing it once and Worf and Guinan were, too. I just can't remember the name of the eps. And the size of those lights were not that much bigger than the diameter of a phaser stream.
Yeah and? Body armour is composed of dense plates of ceramic encased in a kevlar shell. A little more substantial than glorified clay pigeon.
And just how do you suggest you get that to happen? By upping the ante and using your phasers on conical or widebeam settings? All the other side has to do is move back, while their barrier is going away and quickly shoot through the open space, hitting your barrier and/or you.
Conical or widebeam settings suffer from the inverse square law. It's obvious that just upping the setting uses more power than a low setting. Where do you think the extra "ompf" comes from?

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