Starfleet military vs. RL military

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
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Cpl Kendall
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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:10 pm

Praeothmin wrote: See, I usually don't have problems with what you say, or when we disgree.
But in this case, I will note that what you're doing is "a pot calling a kettle black".

What you are describing, I have been seeing on SDN since the first moment I went there.
Yes, I agree, there are die-hard fans that will twist every little fact to ensure "their" sci-fi wins, but I've seen it as much, if not more, on SDN.
Why, their entire "Pure ST" forum should be called "Why ST always suck", because we rarely see anyone say anything positive about it.
Yes it is present. But just because one party does it does not make it acceptable for other people to do it.
Perhaps the tech manuals gave us a name, but it still doen't make it any better then what I would expect modern plastic armors to be like.
It does give a name, which I don't recall at the moment. It's important to note however that modern plastic armor is in it's infancy, pretty much relegated to vehicle applications because you need so much that it would be to heavy to put on a person.
Heck, from what I saw at Endor, I would've gone in with Hockey equipment and would have lasted longer then the Stormtroopers.
I guess that depends on if you want your hockey kit set on fire and melting to you. Trust me, having melted fabric burned to your skin is unpleasant.
Anyways, I hope you don't think I want to attack you or anything, I just feel that in this case, we disagree entirely on this subject...
No that's fine. I certainly don't have any problem with you.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:19 pm

GStone wrote: Lead a resistance cell of the Maquis, boarded a kazon ship and destroyed a stolen Federation module (Maneuvers), his 'suprise tactical' training at the academy (Displaced), in Tuvok's tactical scenario, Chakotay was placed as the leader of the mutiny [written by Tuvok in the thought to be likely event that the new Maquis crew would revolt] (Worst Case Scenario), collaborated with Janeway on a plan to steal a transwarp coil (Dark Frontier), saved Voyager and its crew from the dream alien (Waking Moments), went undercover as an 8472 that was posing as a human (In The Flesh), planned and lead the away mission onto a malon frieghter to stop it from spreading radiation after it exploded (Juggernaut), went undercover again to save several crewman from the Quarren workforce (Workforce).
Ahh yes, insurgent skills. That really translates to a SF wide capability to conduct a ground war. Boarding actions are also really applicable. And the undercover missions bear no relevance to SF's ability to conduct ground combat.

The examples provided and his performance where in paint Chakotey as less than a stellar example of military capability. Especially when compared to modern soldiers.
They use a lot of their superior strength, stamina and durability in hand-to-hand. You'd need good hand-to-hand to stay up against them for any length of time without phasers.
The match typically goes to those who know their shit. Jemmie HtH training apperently consists of a few basic moves.


When they use a bayonet, this'll actually matter.
I guess you don't understand that the standard for engaing the enemy if you can't use your rifle is to use the bayonet first, then the rifle itself and then HtH. The Jemmies have bayonets and choose not to use them bar a few instances. This makes them morons.
You can't honestly think I was talking about the energy it takes to move a fucking lever.

In a slugthrower, the bullets are the ammo. In a phaser, the energy in the power cell is the ammo. Run out of either, the weapon is a paperweight.
Perhaps if you were a little clearer we wouldn't be having this problem.
The only known materials that are phaser resistant are either certain artificial metals or neutronium.
Those barrels that look like plastic come to mind.
Then, the next part should be how you explain the 'inverse square law' is used in getting the other side to decide to switch from the stream setting to either the conical or widebeam setting.
What you said would be relevant if you weren't previously stating how they could use the vaunted widebeam settings.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:29 pm

2046 wrote:
He refers to the SDN myth based on "Legacy"[TNG4], in which Ishara Yar was unable to be transported from the underground city due to a "transformer substation" over her head.

She was nearly a kilometer underground, judging by the locations of her finger-pointing on a map of the structure which extended nearly three kilometers beneath the surface city. (The point is nearly twice as deep as what she indicates here regarding the location of the Arcos escape pod.)

Further, the city was powered by multiple fusion reactors in addition to whatever large-looking structure or structures are indicated on the lower section of the settlement. The city itself was a failed Federation colony, with technology levels logically in the neighborhood of 23rd/24th Century levels. Thus the nature of the transformer substation is unclear.

However, according to the myth, the transporters were simply blocked by a simple electrical transformer, probably on the level of what you'd find hanging on the side of a modern-day power line pole.
The Exact Lines From The Script wrote: O'Brien! Lock onto Ishara and
get her out of here!

33 INT. TRANSPORTER

O'Brien is desperately working the controls.

O'BRIEN
(to com)
There's a transformer substation
directly above the chamber she
just entered. It's masking her
signal.
From here.

If you read the script and watch the episode you'll note that Riker had to drag her out of the area before they could beam up. No mention of any other interferance or that she was to far underground.

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:08 pm

In a world with high energy plasma conduits and matter/antimatter reactors, you're assuming that a transformer substation is only gonna put out the same levels of energy as our real world transformer substations?

This logic is very flawed. With their energy levels, the output would be substantially higher.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:26 pm

GStone wrote:In a world with high energy plasma conduits and matter/antimatter reactors, you're assuming that a transformer substation is only gonna put out the same levels of energy as our real world transformer substations?

This logic is very flawed. With their energy levels, the output would be substantially higher.
Ah yes, lets assume that the substation was putting out massive amounts of interferance due to a high power source. I mean it's not like RL jammers aren't capable of that. Oh wait.......

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:39 pm

An electrical substation changes high power to low and back. But, Trek power generators far exceed our own. This means that what's high for them is beyond what's high for us.

Your argument fails.

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Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:00 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Yes it is present. But just because one party does it does not make it acceptable for other people to do it.
Agreed.
I guess that depends on if you want your hockey kit set on fire and melting to you. Trust me, having melted fabric burned to your skin is unpleasant.
I'm pretty sure it is, I'll take your word on it... :)
Seriously, I realize I should have clarified my thoughts a little more: I meant that I would have fared better against most of the Ewok attacks against the Stormtroopers (excepting of course the rocks to the head, that's pretty much devastating for any kind of equipment)... :)

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:03 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
I'm pretty sure it is, I'll take your word on it... :)
Seriously, I realize I should have clarified my thoughts a little more: I meant that I would have fared better against most of the Ewok attacks against the Stormtroopers (excepting of course the rocks to the head, that's pretty much devastating for any kind of equipment)... :)
Well for the ewoks, that would depend on how much energy their firing their bows with. Hockey kit is little more than foam with a fabric shell.

The rocks and spears are definetly a sure thing.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:03 pm

GStone wrote:An electrical substation changes high power to low and back. But, Trek power generators far exceed our own. This means that what's high for them is beyond what's high for us.

Your argument fails.
And of course you can prove that this is the case for a war torn colony with crumbling infrastructure. If this had happened at a fully functioning colony you might have a case. We know that they have fusion power but it was also stated to be fluctuating. We have no proof that the power available was in fact higher than modern level power.

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Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:47 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Well for the ewoks, that would depend on how much energy their firing their bows with. Hockey kit is little more than foam with a fabric shell.

The rocks and spears are definetly a sure thing.
Yeah, any direct hit with a piercing weapon will definitly play havoc with my health, but the Bolas would barely phase with a fully enclosed helmet, the "hammers" would not leave much of a mark and would certainly not put me down (I've been on the receiving end of herder whacks with hockey sticks, with less protection, and wasn't even injured)...

And unless their spears are really sharp, I believe that equipment that stands up to skate blades would offer pretty good protection against knives as well.

That's why, when looking at ST and SW armor, I always crank up my suspension of disbelief way up... :)

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Yeah, any direct hit with a piercing weapon will definitly play havoc with my health, but the Bolas would barely phase with a fully enclosed helmet, the "hammers" would not leave much of a mark and would certainly not put me down (I've been on the receiving end of herder whacks with hockey sticks, with less protection, and wasn't even injured)...
They had hammers?
And unless their spears are really sharp, I believe that equipment that stands up to skate blades would offer pretty good protection against knives as well.
Depending on what the spearheads are made of, it could be extremely sharp. Obsidion for example when flaked off creates very sharp edges. But really a apear point concentrates it's force in a small area, an ice skate blade has no "pointy" ends. It's essentially a long rail. You have to draw it across the target, creating a diiferent effect but less pressure than a spear thrust.
That's why, when looking at ST and SW armor, I always crank up my suspension of disbelief way up... :)
Try WH40K, that's really applicable.

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:And of course you can prove that this is the case for a war torn colony with crumbling infrastructure. If this had happened at a fully functioning colony you might have a case. We know that they have fusion power but it was also stated to be fluctuating. We have no proof that the power available was in fact higher than modern level power.
Earth has gone through many major wars and it hasn't regressed technologically. You're suggesting that just because there was a surface war and people are now living underground, that...somehow...they lost all traces of the technology that was on the surface. That they fell back 400 years technologically.

That's ridiculous. This is what would have actually happened. On the surface, there's the standard technology, presumably. A world war starts and there's heavy destruction. You don't build underground living conditions with a spinning wheel and 2 rocks you strike together for fire. You supply the living conditions with equipment that's from the surface that's used regularly.

Civilians first and then, and some military start living underground. People keep dying on the surface until there's too little up top to be of any use, so everyone else moves down below.

I don't want to be in any bomb shelters you build.

Edit: If you're gonna quote a script, you should be more aware of it. Later in the episode, we learn that the power levels the planet has are greater than ours.

DATA
(continuing)
The fusion generator is
overloading.
(turns to her)
You are attempting to disable the
defense system. For what reason?
We have rescued the crewmen.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:08 pm

GStone wrote: Earth has gone through many major wars and it hasn't regressed technologically. You're suggesting that just because there was a surface war and people are now living underground, that...somehow...they lost all traces of the technology that was on the surface. That they fell back 400 years technologically.

That's ridiculous. This is what would have actually happened. On the surface, there's the standard technology, presumably. A world war starts and there's heavy destruction. You don't build underground living conditions with a spinning wheel and 2 rocks you strike together for fire. You supply the living conditions with equipment that's from the surface that's used regularly.

Civilians first and then, and some military start living underground. People keep dying on the surface until there's too little up top to be of any use, so everyone else moves down below.

I don't want to be in any bomb shelters you build.
No I said that the infrastructure was crumbling, colony factions were raiding each other for supplies. Why should we assume that the powerplants are functioning at peak capability when everything else is in the shitter? Reference various war torn countries and see what happens to the power infrastructure. Where the hell are they getting the fuel from?

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:10 pm

GStone wrote:
Edit: If you're gonna quote a script, you should be more aware of it. Later in the episode, we learn that the power levels the planet has are greater than ours.

DATA
(continuing)
The fusion generator is
overloading.
(turns to her)
You are attempting to disable the
defense system. For what reason?
We have rescued the crewmen.
In a goddamn overload, which is a retarded statement in itself.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:06 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote: Robert already pointed you to his site with it's various looks at phasers and their effects. But you might want to look at this SFJ thread from well over a year ago on the DET-like effects of phasers in cutting or burning through various metals, people, and what-have-you:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

Please take some time to look at the various links to screencaps, though there may be some that are now outdated. Again, you are being overly optimistic in ability of current-day body armor to withstand a phaser beam that can bore right through a humanoid or a metal wall.
-Mike
I see alot of chain reactions with rocks and various targets, a little short on actual direct effects. Just because a rock magically gets eaten away doesn't follow that armour grade ceramic will. And buddy with the burns, that could easily caused by a few hundred degrees of heat.

We see an explosion, the rock does not glow and disappear. There is substantial carbon scoring and debris around what is left over, and the burns on the guy are pretty substantial, requiring more than few hundred degrees of heat. Probably into the 1000-2,500 C range to produce that kind of severe burning of clothing and flesh.

Now, please stop handwaving away rather substantial evidence, and just accept that the phaser beam will likely do signficant damage to both armor and the flesh underneath it.
-Mike

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