Starfleet military vs. RL military

[Mike DiCenso]

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Body armour? Pray tell what body armour are we talking about here? The leather worn by the Klingons and what is clearly a uniform made from stiff fabric/plastic on the Cardassions?

Proof that the armor they wear is leather/plastic (yes, the Klingons probably incorporate some materials that look like leather or what-have-you, but that's just style)?

Even granting that they may be just wearing ceremonial armor in all cases, the fact that single shots can literally burn right through a person and those thick layers of whatever is quite an astounding display of power for a beam weapon.

(For comparison, shuttle ceramic tiles operationally handle heat loading up to 1,650 degrees C and start to getting well into the safety margin beyond that). The ceramic/kevlar body armor you mention is designed primarily to defend the soldier from shrapnel as well as some direct hits by bullets. It is not 100% effective as it does not cover every possible part of the body, and cannot prevent all injuries.

No shit, it's only supposed to protect the vitals. Though the idea that ST troops would be able to aim for the unarmoured bits is laughable. Real soldiers with training far in excess of these assclowns are taught to aim for the center of mass. Snipers take headshots but not from long range.

Well no duh there. Of course they are taught that! But that's not the point. A phaser beam can still hit an unprotected part of the body (assuming your magical, phaser-blocking version of modern day body armor exists). If a phaser shot to the chest doesn't work, well shoot the bastard in the head or arm or leg where the armor doesn't protect him, which is where the point about SF officers and troops training using rapidly moving lights on the holodeck comes into play. They will be ready to change up and shoot something small, like the gaps in the armor, if need be in an instant.

Certainly the body armor leaves potential gaps to be exploited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inte ... _armor.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... image1.jpg

Note the exposed forearms, thighs, face, neck, hips, lower legs, ect. Prime targets all.

Kinda interesting because it resembles the Federation troop body armor seen in DS9's "Nor the Battle the Strong...":

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the159.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the167.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the166.jpg

But frankly speaking, the phaser beam will likely just burn right through the kevlar and ceramics of the Marines just fine.

The pin-point shooting that was refered to can be used to hit those gaps, or a phaser on a suffiencently high enough setting can be used to create a small explosion on the ground right under the soldier and spray them with shrapnel that can at least slow down, if not injure him/her, assuming, of course, for whatever reason that the Starfleet trooper decided not to just outright hit the Marine with a phaser shot right to the chest that is powerful enough to bore through the kelvlar and ceramic armors at temperatures of thousands of degrees C!

Yeah because a phaser shot is totally able to bore through an inch of high density ceramic plate in a brief shot. Your defeating yourself by specifying a high power shot. The more ammo the ST clowns have to use, the less troops they can kill. Where as the American troops can kill the ST guys regardless of weapon power, using less ammo.[/quote]


Who said anything about high power (that is the maximum, or near maximum power of the phaser)? Please read what I wrote more carefully Kendall. Setting seven on a scale of sixteen that can heat an alloy up to 2,300 degrees C is hardly "high-power". At worst that's moderate range power.

But on that matter, we have in TOS' "The Omega Glory" where renegade Captain Ronald Tracey formerly of the U.S.S. Exeter along with four of his Kohm henchmen kill thousands of Yangs with their phasers. Tracey is later shown chasing Kirk and shooting at him with the high-power "disintegrate" mode, which argues that at least hundreds of such shots are possible before power pack exaustion.

Now are you seriously telling me that a squad or platoon of Marines is going to be able to hold out against that for very long? I don't think so. However, we are talking here about the lower/moderate settings providing ample enough power to burn holes through the Marines' armor and through them out to the other side, and still leave plenty of "ammo" for the SF troops.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Which equals the same as jamming a tricorder or ship-based scanning system... how?
-Mike

That's just a low level example of what can be used. And the Jemmies never used a ship based scanner on AR-558 in the episode. Red-herring.

You're dodging the question asked of you. Even leaving out ship-based sensors, how does that create enough EM to block the sensors of a tricorder. How would the Marines in this situation even know that such a tactic could work, assuming that they had the time to set it up?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Ceramics aren't magical. They have definite upper limits to them. Shuttle thermal tiles, are ceramics, and have actually charred and fallen off on some missions during reentry when they are exposed to temperatures above their operational norm and safety margin. Not to mention, a phaser beam concentrates it's energy into a very small relative area, making it less likely for the ceramic to refract the heat being generated.
-Mike

Yeah and? It just has to weaken the shot enough for the guy to live. Soldiers have and do fight on with far more grevious wonds than that caused by a phaser. And in case you hadn't noticed, a real life round impacts on a smaller area (and therefore applies signifacant energy) on body armour. Note how wide some energy weapons are.

A weapon that can burn holes right through your chest to the other side of your body? Right through your heart or other vital organs... yeah right. Most people usually wind up screaming and writhering in agony when their skin is charred over a wide percentage of their body, never mind what the rather signficant trauma they'll be suffering will do to them. Also not all phaser or disruptor beam shots are wide, though some on widespread mode can still cause signficant heating/ and or disintigration effects. Just look more carefully at the examples provided in that thread, and note that many of the beams are quite narrow.

Simply put: the Marines' armor will not be enough to protect them.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Proof that the armor they wear is leather/plastic (yes, the Klingons probably incorporate some materials that look like leather or what-have-you, but that's just style)?

Even granting that they may be just wearing ceremonial armor in all cases, the fact that single shots can literally burn right through a person and those thick layers of whatever is quite an astounding display of power for a beam weapon.

There is no proof that their "armour" is anything but what it appears to be. And I've yet to see a ST weapon actually burn straight through a person. Thick layers my ass, if you look at clothes you can tell that it's thin. It has to be to remain flexable.

Well no duh there. Of course they are taught that! But that's not the point. A phaser beam can still hit an unprotected part of the body (assuming your magical, phaser-blocking version of modern day body armor exists). If a phaser shot to the chest doesn't work, well shoot the bastard in the head or arm or leg where the armor doesn't protect him, which is where the point about SF officers and troops training using rapidly moving lights on the holodeck comes into play. They will be ready to change up and shoot something small, like the gaps in the armor, if need be in an instant.

Your as sharp as a sack of wet mice aren't you? Hitting a target outside of the torso is incredibly difficult under the best conditions, add in combat and the rate of rounds expended to hits can drop to as little as 30%. You have to aim for the center of mass to get the maximum possible chance for a hit. ST troops with their lack of hard training and experiance are likely to fair even worse. And with their incredibly shitty weapons designs it will be next to impossible to hit limb targets at range.

Certainly the body armor leaves potential gaps to be exploited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inte ... _armor.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... image1.jpg

Note the exposed forearms, thighs, face, neck, hips, lower legs, ect. Prime targets all.

Kinda interesting because it resembles the Federation troop body armor seen in DS9's "Nor the Battle the Strong...":

I've already adressed this.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the159.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the167.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... the166.jpg

But frankly speaking, the phaser beam will likely just burn right through the kevlar and ceramics of the Marines just fine.

Links to Trekcore that show nothing, nice.

Who said anything about high power (that is the maximum, or near maximum power of the phaser)? Please read what I wrote more carefully Kendall. Setting seven on a scale of sixteen that can heat an alloy up to 2,300 degrees C is hardly "high-power". At worst that's moderate range power.

You said high setting.

But on that matter, we have in TOS' "The Omega Glory" where renegade Captain Ronald Tracey formerly of the U.S.S. Exeter along with four of his Kohm henchmen kill thousands of Yangs with their phasers. Tracey is later shown chasing Kirk and shooting at him with the high-power "disintegrate" mode, which argues that at least hundreds of such shots are possible before power pack exaustion.

Barbarions with fur do not an argument against armour make.

Now are you seriously telling me that a squad or platoon of Marines is going to be able to hold out against that for very long? I don't think so. However, we are talking here about the lower/moderate settings providing ample enough power to burn holes through the Marines' armor and through them out to the other side, and still leave plenty of "ammo" for the SF troops.
-Mike

ST weapons are short range, unergonomic and produce no shrapnell. The Marines can sit outside of range and pour fire into them and the ST goons won't be able to do anything. Add in grenades, heavy weapons and vehicles and they are fucked.

[Cpl Kendall]

You're dodging the question asked of you. Even leaving out ship-based sensors, how does that create enough EM to block the sensors of a tricorder. How would the Marines in this situation even know that such a tactic could work, assuming that they had the time to set it up?
-Mike

The standard for a versus matchup is that the troops get all relevant info needed to execute the mission. You could literally just start pumping out noise from the highest power radio in the company. Fucking transformers are enough to jam ST sensors.

[Mike DiCenso]

You're dodging the question asked of you. Even leaving out ship-based sensors, how does that create enough EM to block the sensors of a tricorder. How would the Marines in this situation even know that such a tactic could work, assuming that they had the time to set it up?
-Mike

The standard for a versus matchup is that the troops get all relevant info needed to execute the mission. You could literally just start pumping out noise from the highest power radio in the company. Fucking transformers are enough to jam ST sensors.

Proof of that, please. I seriously doubt that transformer could pump out enough EM to interfere sufficently with a subspace sensor.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Body armour? Pray tell what body armour are we talking about here? The leather worn by the Klingons and what is clearly a uniform made from stiff fabric/plastic on the Cardassions?

Am I to assume then that you also believe that Stormtrooper armour is a cheap plastic armor?
Because it doesn't look any less cheap then ST armor...

I really want to know, because I've seen too many people argue that ST armor is cheap, and then turn around and defend the SW armors tooth and nails.
Simply curious...

[GStone]

I'm sorry, what does that tells us besides the fact that Chakotay thinks it's difficult? What military prowess has he shown?

Lead a resistance cell of the Maquis, boarded a kazon ship and destroyed a stolen Federation module (Maneuvers), his 'suprise tactical' training at the academy (Displaced), in Tuvok's tactical scenario, Chakotay was placed as the leader of the mutiny [written by Tuvok in the thought to be likely event that the new Maquis crew would revolt] (Worst Case Scenario), collaborated with Janeway on a plan to steal a transwarp coil (Dark Frontier), saved Voyager and its crew from the dream alien (Waking Moments), went undercover as an 8472 that was posing as a human (In The Flesh), planned and lead the away mission onto a malon frieghter to stop it from spreading radiation after it exploded (Juggernaut), went undercover again to save several crewman from the Quarren workforce (Workforce).

Yes, Jemmies who run screaming into battle and either shoot you or impale you in a melee or the Klingons who run screaming into battle with a shitty sword. Neither of those races has demonstrated anything resembling a useful HtH skill.

They use a lot of their superior strength, stamina and durability in hand-to-hand. You'd need good hand-to-hand to stay up against them for any length of time without phasers.

They don't even demonstrated competant bayonet training.

When they use a bayonet, this'll actually matter.

Oh your good. Although switching from automatic to single shot doesn't actually require anymore energy.

You can't honestly think I was talking about the energy it takes to move a fucking lever.

In a slugthrower, the bullets are the ammo. In a phaser, the energy in the power cell is the ammo. Run out of either, the weapon is a paperweight.

Yeah and? Body armour is composed of dense plates of ceramic encased in a kevlar shell. A little more substantial than glorified clay pigeon.

The only known materials that are phaser resistant are either certain artificial metals or neutronium.

Conical or widebeam settings suffer from the inverse square law. It's obvious that just upping the setting uses more power than a low setting. Where do you think the extra "ompf" comes from?

Then, the next part should be how you explain the 'inverse square law' is used in getting the other side to decide to switch from the stream setting to either the conical or widebeam setting.

[Cpl Kendall]

Am I to assume then that you also believe that Stormtrooper armour is a cheap plastic armor?
Because it doesn't look any less cheap then ST armor...

The difference between the two is that we actually know what Stormtrooper armor is composed of. And we have a reasonable amount of info on what it's capable of.

The "armour" used by the Klingons and Cardies, we know nothing about other than it stops nothing. In the abscence of any real data you may as well go with what you can see. It would be assinine to assume the best for it.

I really want to know, because I've seen too many people argue that ST armor is cheap, and then turn around and defend the SW armors tooth and nails.
Simply curious...

Stormtrooper armour is what it is, which is apperently a suit designed to defend against shrapnell and low power blaster hits. It's real power is in the helmet capabilities.

[GStone]

You work by observed evidence. You don't just say "We don't know enough to conclude that". If you see that every ground action is fought by unarmored people with nothing more than small arms, you make the assumption that Starfleet ground forces consist of unarmored people with nothing more than small arms.

Admiral Leyton in DS9: Homefront tells the Federation president that within their stockpiles, there are personal force fields. Now, while we haven't seen them on every away mission or fire fight, they must not be as standard as other things, like a communicator or tricorder, but they do exist.

There is no proof that their "armour" is anything but what it appears to be. And I've yet to see a ST weapon actually burn straight through a person. Thick layers my ass, if you look at clothes you can tell that it's thin. It has to be to remain flexable.

TNG: Suspicions

Beverly, with the thought to be dead Jo'Bril tuck away on a shuttle with Reyga's research, fires on Jo'Bril, burrowing a hole through him with obvious burn marks on his clothes surrounding the hole in his body. The screencap below shows him getting shot a second time with the hole clearly visible.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons316.jpg

[GStone]

Stormtrooper armour is what it is, which is apperently a suit designed to defend against shrapnell and low power blaster hits. It's real power is in the helmet capabilities.

Yes, the capability of screwing with peripheral vision.

[2046]

transformers are enough to jam ST sensors.

Proof of that, please. I seriously doubt that transformer could pump out enough EM to interfere sufficently with a subspace sensor.
-Mike

He refers to the SDN myth based on "Legacy"[TNG4], in which Ishara Yar was unable to be transported from the underground city due to a "transformer substation" over her head.

She was nearly a kilometer underground, judging by the locations of her finger-pointing on a map of the structure which extended nearly three kilometers beneath the surface city. (The point is nearly twice as deep as what she indicates here regarding the location of the Arcos escape pod.)

Further, the city was powered by multiple fusion reactors in addition to whatever large-looking structure or structures are indicated on the lower section of the settlement. The city itself was a failed Federation colony, with technology levels logically in the neighborhood of 23rd/24th Century levels. Thus the nature of the transformer substation is unclear.

However, according to the myth, the transporters were simply blocked by a simple electrical transformer, probably on the level of what you'd find hanging on the side of a modern-day power line pole.

[Cpl Kendall]

Admiral Leyton in DS9: Homefront tells the Federation president that within their stockpiles, there are personal force fields. Now, while we haven't seen them on every away mission or fire fight, they must not be as standard as other things, like a communicator or tricorder, but they do exist.

Sheilds that are never seen or used. Might as well not be there if they don't deploy them.

TNG: Suspicions

Beverly, with the thought to be dead Jo'Bril tuck away on a shuttle with Reyga's research, fires on Jo'Bril, burrowing a hole through him with obvious burn marks on his clothes surrounding the hole in his body. The screencap below shows him getting shot a second time with the hole clearly visible.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons316.jpg

Your going to have to come up with more than one example if you want people to believe it's more than an outlier.

The problem with some of the debaters on this board (and the hardcore Trekkies in general) is that they automatically assume the best for Trek and the worst for everyone else. Guess what your doing.

[Kazeite]

And where he rates almost every military factor as being in SF's favour?

So, when you said "Wow, your not desperatly tied to Trek winning everything now are you?" you really wanted to say "Wow, your not desperatly tied to SF military winning everything now are you?", right?

Center of mass little man, center of mass.

What does center of little man's mass has to do with it? I'll give you one more chance to understand why modern body armor cannot protect against wide-beam stun. Unless you meant to say that it protects user against oridinary stun beam...

[Praeothmin]

The problem with some of the debaters on this board (and the hardcore Trekkies in general) is that they automatically assume the best for Trek and the worst for everyone else. Guess what your doing.

See, I usually don't have problems with what you say, or when we disgree.
But in this case, I will note that what you're doing is "a pot calling a kettle black".

What you are describing, I have been seeing on SDN since the first moment I went there.
Yes, I agree, there are die-hard fans that will twist every little fact to ensure "their" sci-fi wins, but I've seen it as much, if not more, on SDN.
Why, their entire "Pure ST" forum should be called "Why ST always suck", because we rarely see anyone say anything positive about it.

The difference between the two is that we actually know what Stormtrooper armor is composed of. And we have a reasonable amount of info on what it's capable of.

Perhaps the tech manuals gave us a name, but it still doen't make it any better then what I would expect modern plastic armors to be like.

Heck, from what I saw at Endor, I would've gone in with Hockey equipment and would have lasted longer then the Stormtroopers.

Anyways, I hope you don't think I want to attack you or anything, I just feel that in this case, we disagree entirely on this subject...