Starfleet military vs. RL military

[Opecoiler]

Not at all. We do not know enough about Trek ground forces to conclude that. One incident at AR558 is hardly conclusive of the whole. Especially since we know from canon that their 'prime worlds' are indeed defended by different things than AR558.

You work by observed evidence. You don't just say "We don't know enough to conclude that". If you see that every ground action is fought by unarmored people with nothing more than small arms, you make the assumption that Starfleet ground forces consist of unarmored people with nothing more than small arms.

As an example, I'm not basing my ideas on ground force capabilities and tactics of the SW empire on the downright pathetic show they had at Endor either.

On the other hand, I was expecting you to shout 'conceed they get beaten' at your earliest convenience. Funny how that works.

You should have made that a tad more clear in your OP then. A company of soldiers does not on average carry with it food and water or heaven forbid ammo to last months. You know, in real life. Where they have to get resupplied quite often.

Or did you think the US military was spending billions a month on Iraq just for fun?

Typically, resupply is done using a constant supply line. If that was the case on AR-558, than the Defiant's arrival would hardly be noteworthy.

I was simply adopting it to the Federation's idea of logistics.

Provide proof they wouldn't or shut up about known capabilities of your enemy. Waving your hand about to say "but they didn't mention the standard defenses against transporters used in ST this time even though they we know those very things where used during other ground assaults where no one transported" is not evidence.

You're the one doing the handwaving. There was no mention of a transport inhibitor on AR-558, and the evidence against one being there is backed up by Sisko and co. beaming down without any trouble.

Enemies have been beamed away in ST. Transporters have been used offensively. More proof is not needed.

How often have enemies been beamed away? What were the circumstances behind them being beamed away? Had they been beamed or plucked away from a pitched, mobile battle?

More importantly, how many times has the Dominion specifically beamed enemies into space?

As too bombardment, that too has been done before. There could be a ton of reasons not to bombard the Starfleet forces, including the knowledge that the Federation can deploy theatre shielding. Which the US soldiers would not have.

No mention of a theater shield either.

Basic logistics here meaning 'the backing of an above average nation state' then? Contrary to your belief companies of soldiers don't go in with enough stuff to last them months. Not on Earth any way.

Companies of soldiers are resupplied via a constant supply line. This was not the case on AR-558.

Transporters have been used offensively. Not wanting to hear this won't change that.

How often have they been used in such a way? Have they ever been used in the middle of a pitched battle as opposed against individual opponents? Burden of proof is on you to prove the positive.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. Try reading what I write next time. Starship security =/= Starfleet groundforces. This has been established on DS9 quite clearly.

What I am doing is noting that you are pitting the equivalent of the local police against trained soldiers.

Ok.

Lucky us then that the US military doesn't give out it's troops dozens of grenades each. And that in real life a tree in fact can provide quite effective shielding against anti-personal grenades. Sure, it might not always work but it'll work better than vs a phaser.

M203 grenade launchers. One M203 per fireteam. Two fireteams in a squad. The fireteams also have fully automatic weapons among them.

This is in addition any hand grenades that the soldiers may be issued.

Not too mention that wide-beam stun is quite the equalizer here.

Last time I checked, phasers don't do so good against dense objects. What effect will a toned-down stun beam have against modern body armor?

Nothing a wide-beam stun won't deal with.

Phasers have typically fared not so well against dense objects. Modern body armor is quite dense and thick.

[Mike DiCenso]

Although I too thnk that the US soldiers would wound up victorious in AR558, I do think in this particular case, the jamming part, is more assumptions on your part then actual fact.
But, with their obviously superior training, I do think the soldiers take this one...

Given that ST scanners are frequently disrupted by EM radiation, the troops could probably strip the sheilding off a generator cable and use that to jam them.

Frequently? Please provide examples of such, and if so, what frequencies were being used to disrupt the sensors. Also, how can stripping a generator cable provide said EM radiation frequencies. Does it even have the necessary power output range, ect.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Frequently? Please provide examples of such, and if so, what frequencies were being used to disrupt the sensors. Also, how can stripping a generator cable provide said EM radiation frequencies. Does it even have the necessary power output range, ect.
-Mike

If gennie cables aren't shielded than they interfere with electronics and radio transmission because their putting out (what we call) noise IE: random EM radiation.

[Kazeite]

I have read his site and I took another look again today to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I don't see anything to persuade me from my original conclusion.

Even his overview, which explictly states where the Empire does hold an advantage over Federation?

Phasers have typically fared not so well against dense objects. Modern body armor is quite dense and thick.

It also doesn't cover entire body :)

[Cpl Kendall]

Even his overview, which explictly states where the Empire does hold an advantage over Federation?

And where he rates almost every military factor as being in SF's favour?

It also doesn't cover entire body :)

Center of mass little man, center of mass.

[Praeothmin]

Phasers have typically fared not so well against dense objects. Modern body armor is quite dense and thick.

Allow me to correct that:
"Phasers at settings lower then 7 have typically fared not so well against dense objects.
Setting 7 and above have typically done just great.
In TNG, Riker destroys a round rock approximately 1-2 meter wide with his Phaser (no NDF at all).
In TNG, duradium I bleieve it was called, was vaporized by Phaser fire, again without NDF effects, since the whole deal was to fire and have the vapor blind their opponents.
In DS9, Phasers vaporized rocks and even parts of the station's bulkheads, again with visible smoke (or vapor).
So I really don't think Phasers would have any problems with modern armor.

Again, I still think the real soldiers are better trained though...

[Cpl Kendall]

Allow me to correct that:
"Phasers at settings lower then 7 have typically fared not so well against dense objects.
Setting 7 and above have typically done just great.
In TNG, Riker destroys a round rock approximately 1-2 meter wide with his Phaser (no NDF at all).
In TNG, duradium I bleieve it was called, was vaporized by Phaser fire, again without NDF effects, since the whole deal was to fire and have the vapor blind their opponents.
In DS9, Phasers vaporized rocks and even parts of the station's bulkheads, again with visible smoke (or vapor).
So I really don't think Phasers would have any problems with modern armor.

Again, I still think the real soldiers are better trained though...

I'd like to see exactly what was happening. For example if the phaser was using heat to destroy these objects, the plates in body armour will serve well. Ceramic is an insulator.

[Mike DiCenso]

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Yeah and? Body armour is composed of dense plates of ceramic encased in a kevlar shell. A little more substantial than glorified clay pigeon.

Except that we've seen phasers and distruptors burn right through various body armors worn by Cardassians and Klingon troops, and a phaser on setting seven can vaporize some alloys that require temperatures up to 2,314 degrees C with at least a maximum temperature increase of up to 8,000 degrees C. (For comparison, shuttle ceramic tiles operationally handle heat loading up to 1,650 degrees C and start to getting well into the safety margin beyond that). The ceramic/kevlar body armor you mention is designed primarily to defend the soldier from shrapnel as well as some direct hits by bullets. It is not 100% effective as it does not cover every possible part of the body, and cannot prevent all injuries. The pin-point shooting that was refered to can be used to hit those gaps, or a phaser on a suffiencently high enough setting can be used to create a small explosion on the ground right under the soldier and spray them with shrapnel that can at least slow down, if not injure him/her, assuming, of course, for whatever reason that the Starfleet trooper decided not to just outright hit the Marine with a phaser shot right to the chest that is powerful enough to bore through the kelvlar and ceramic armors at temperatures of thousands of degrees C!
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Frequently? Please provide examples of such, and if so, what frequencies were being used to disrupt the sensors. Also, how can stripping a generator cable provide said EM radiation frequencies. Does it even have the necessary power output range, ect.
-Mike

If gennie cables aren't shielded than they interfere with electronics and radio transmission because their putting out (what we call) noise IE: random EM radiation.

Which equals the same as jamming a tricorder or ship-based scanning system... how?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Allow me to correct that:
"Phasers at settings lower then 7 have typically fared not so well against dense objects.
Setting 7 and above have typically done just great.
In TNG, Riker destroys a round rock approximately 1-2 meter wide with his Phaser (no NDF at all).
In TNG, duradium I bleieve it was called, was vaporized by Phaser fire, again without NDF effects, since the whole deal was to fire and have the vapor blind their opponents.
In DS9, Phasers vaporized rocks and even parts of the station's bulkheads, again with visible smoke (or vapor).
So I really don't think Phasers would have any problems with modern armor.

Again, I still think the real soldiers are better trained though...

I'd like to see exactly what was happening. For example if the phaser was using heat to destroy these objects, the plates in body armour will serve well. Ceramic is an insulator.

Robert already pointed you to his site with it's various looks at phasers and their effects. But you might want to look at this SFJ thread from well over a year ago on the DET-like effects of phasers in cutting or burning through various metals, people, and what-have-you:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

Please take some time to look at the various links to screencaps, though there may be some that are now outdated. Again, you are being overly optimistic in ability of current-day body armor to withstand a phaser beam that can bore right through a humanoid or a metal wall.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Allow me to correct that:
"Phasers at settings lower then 7 have typically fared not so well against dense objects.
Setting 7 and above have typically done just great.
In TNG, Riker destroys a round rock approximately 1-2 meter wide with his Phaser (no NDF at all).
In TNG, duradium I bleieve it was called, was vaporized by Phaser fire, again without NDF effects, since the whole deal was to fire and have the vapor blind their opponents.
In DS9, Phasers vaporized rocks and even parts of the station's bulkheads, again with visible smoke (or vapor).
So I really don't think Phasers would have any problems with modern armor.

Again, I still think the real soldiers are better trained though...

I'd like to see exactly what was happening. For example if the phaser was using heat to destroy these objects, the plates in body armour will serve well. Ceramic is an insulator.

Ceramics aren't magical. They have definite upper limits to them. Shuttle thermal tiles, are ceramics, and have actually charred and fallen off on some missions during reentry when they are exposed to temperatures above their operational norm and safety margin. Not to mention, a phaser beam concentrates it's energy into a very small relative area, making it less likely for the ceramic to refract the heat being generated.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Except that we've seen phasers and distruptors burn right through various body armors worn by Cardassians and Klingon troops, and a phaser on setting seven can vaporize some alloys that require temperatures up to 2,314 degrees C with at least a maximum temperature increase of up to 8,000 degrees C.

Body armour? Pray tell what body armour are we talking about here? The leather worn by the Klingons and what is clearly a uniform made from stiff fabric/plastic on the Cardassions?

(For comparison, shuttle ceramic tiles operationally handle heat loading up to 1,650 degrees C and start to getting well into the safety margin beyond that). The ceramic/kevlar body armor you mention is designed primarily to defend the soldier from shrapnel as well as some direct hits by bullets. It is not 100% effective as it does not cover every possible part of the body, and cannot prevent all injuries.

No shit, it's only supposed to protect the vitals. Though the idea that ST troops would be able to aim for the unarmoured bits is laughable. Real soldiers with training far in excess of these assclowns are taught to aim for the center of mass. Snipers take headshots but not from long range.

The pin-point shooting that was refered to can be used to hit those gaps, or a phaser on a suffiencently high enough setting can be used to create a small explosion on the ground right under the soldier and spray them with shrapnel that can at least slow down, if not injure him/her, assuming, of course, for whatever reason that the Starfleet trooper decided not to just outright hit the Marine with a phaser shot right to the chest that is powerful enough to bore through the kelvlar and ceramic armors at temperatures of thousands of degrees C!

Yeah because a phaser shot is totally able to bore through an inch of high density ceramic plate in a brief shot. Your defeating yourself by specifying a high power shot. The more ammo the ST clowns have to use, the less troops they can kill. Where as the American troops can kill the ST guys regardless of weapon power, using less ammo.

[Cpl Kendall]

Which equals the same as jamming a tricorder or ship-based scanning system... how?
-Mike

That's just a low level example of what can be used. And the Jemmies never used a ship based scanner on AR-558 in the episode. Red-herring.

[Cpl Kendall]

Ceramics aren't magical. They have definite upper limits to them. Shuttle thermal tiles, are ceramics, and have actually charred and fallen off on some missions during reentry when they are exposed to temperatures above their operational norm and safety margin. Not to mention, a phaser beam concentrates it's energy into a very small relative area, making it less likely for the ceramic to refract the heat being generated.
-Mike

Yeah and? It just has to weaken the shot enough for the guy to live. Soldiers have and do fight on with far more grevious wonds than that caused by a phaser. And in case you hadn't noticed, a real life round impacts on a smaller area (and therefore applies signifacant energy) on body armour. Note how wide some energy weapons are.

[Cpl Kendall]

Robert already pointed you to his site with it's various looks at phasers and their effects. But you might want to look at this SFJ thread from well over a year ago on the DET-like effects of phasers in cutting or burning through various metals, people, and what-have-you:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

Please take some time to look at the various links to screencaps, though there may be some that are now outdated. Again, you are being overly optimistic in ability of current-day body armor to withstand a phaser beam that can bore right through a humanoid or a metal wall.
-Mike

I see alot of chain reactions with rocks and various targets, a little short on actual direct effects. Just because a rock magically gets eaten away doesn't follow that armour grade ceramic will. And buddy with the burns, that could easily caused by a few hundred degrees of heat.