Starfleet military vs. RL military

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Ted C
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Post by Ted C » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:25 pm

GStone wrote:
Ted C wrote:You think that's a GOOD idea?

To sacrifice several of your people as living shields, then burden the rest with bodies
You think the Vorta or the Founders are that concerned with individual Jem'Hadar? You aren't watching the canon, if you are. The jemmies are nothing more than disposable soldiers. They even breed it into their genetic code and social conditioning. 'Victor is life', 'we are already'. They rammed a GCS when there was no need to, killing all the jemmies that were on board just to prove a point of how far they would go.
It isn't a question of whether they're willing to sacrifice soldiers to achieve a tactical or strategic objective, it's a question of whether the tactic you proposed has any value, which it doesn't. Jem'Hadar trying to lug the bodies of their fallen comrades into battle will just slow them down and leave them exposed to fire longer.
GStone wrote:
that won't even be effective defenses, since we know perfectly well that phasers CAN disintegrate a human body?
A very obvious switching of the argument. The idea is that supposedly there isn't a wide beam setting that can disintegrate or do damage to the surrounding enviornment. So, what's left? Killing with external burn marks on the body. Keeping the power low, so that you don't drain the power cell too quickly. That has been proposed by your side, as well as mentioning a decreased effectiveness, though calling a circular area 'wide beam' is wrong.
You are proposing a tactic that, if it were valid, would be more useful against phasers on their typical narrow-beam kill setting than it would against a wide-beam phaser (assuming such a thing were actually effective). You are proposing that holding up a dead body in front of you as you try to charge into battle through a choke point would be a good plan. If you really believe that, you must be delusional.

And even if there were some shred of sense to the plan, why would the Federation troops actually predict such a response and therefore refrain from using wide-beam phasers?

Your "dead body shields" idea is so preposterous that I'm stunned you would even bring it up.

And I think the real argument is that if Federation phasers could actually deliver a lethal or even stunning spread at the kind of range we saw in "The Siege of AR-558" and sustain it, that would have been the ideal time to do it. You're trying to come up with some kind of excuse that involves both effective wide-beam phasers and competent troops, so you dreamed up this deranged "tactic" that the Federation is countering.
GStone wrote:If that is the physical result after phaser hits on wide spread, you aren't gonna be disintegrating anything. Not even the bodies that are being used to block the phaser blasts (which again...are not disintegrating anything) will vanish.
The "body shields" tactic is still preposterous. Even if the effect of a wide-beam is just to stun the target, lugging bodies forward won't be effective. Unless the Jem'Hadar soldier carrying the body can hold it so that it blocks 100% of the spread beam, it's going to affect him. I don't care if he just gets a stun effect to his leg, he's going to fall down, which will break the charge.
GStone wrote:
And then try to carry the bodies close enough to the enemy to use them as thrown weapons, taking fire all the way?
The bodies would continue to get burnt more and more and I said that even if some made it past, it would be small because the brunt of the effects are being taken by the 'body shields'. It should be obvious that when they got close to the starfleet soldiers, they would then toss them, not as if they were throwing them the entire distance from the bottle neck.
No, they just have to lug them through the bottleneck and then keep carrying them all the way up to throwing distance of their enemies, taking fire all the way. It's an idiotic plan.
GStone wrote:
Call it rude if you want, but that is an IDIOTIC tactic; there's just no other way to describe it. Running screaming through a choke point with swords against an enemy shooting beam weapons was smarter, and that was plenty stupid.
And I need to inform you that if you are gonna call something stupid, you actually need to understand what is being said. You have cleary demonstrated that you didn't.
I stand by my description. You have proposed an absolutely idiotic plan.

Opecoiler
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Post by Opecoiler » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:08 pm

GStone wrote: For a human to lift someone of average weight up and run, they don't need huge amount of muscle mass. They'd need a decent amount, but they don't need to bench press 450 lbs to do it. Jemmies are designed to be far stronger than humans and don't even feel fatigue like humans because they don't sleep. While they usually last only a few decades, to go that long without sleep and still act like you are in your prime is exceptional. This increased stamina translates into being able to use your muscles for longer periods of time. How long do you think it takes to sprint 30-35 yards? 3 hours?

The strain required to hold someone of average or above average weight isn't that out of the question given this level of stamina. And I was saying less than 50, more like 30-35. They also wouldn't be just walking slowly.
The world record for sprinting is roughly 10 meters/second, done unencumbered and in an optimal position. As this video shows, running while carrying someone is much slower-and this is a far more efficient carry than what you've been advocating.
It isn't required to hold them up perfectly perpedicular. Do you think jemmies are stiff as a body and as straight when they die? They just need to be held up and down in front of the moving jemmies. Not sideways. Tell me you weren't thinking I was talking about holding the bodies sideways.
Yes, it is required, and it isn't about holding the bodies sideways. Perpendicular means a perfect 90 degree angle. An off angle wide beam shot will go right past the corpse and hit the Jem'hadar behind it.
A 30-35 yard sprint is not that far, nor would it mean that with a wide beam, they bodies will suddenly increase in weight and become too heavy. We aren't talking about out of shape humans carrying other humans.
But carrying a heavy weight will slow you down. In addition to simply providing more weight to move, it puts more pressure on the joints, and means you can't swing your arms.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:18 pm

Ted C wrote:It isn't a question of whether they're willing to sacrifice soldiers to achieve a tactical or strategic objective, it's a question of whether the tactic you proposed has any value, which it doesn't.
Of course it does. That be like saying 'do you, soldier, have a problem of shooting live ammo at people on the battle field'. It's the willingness factor of both those giving the orders (Founders/Vorta) and those following them out (Jem'Hadar).

The willingness of what a soldier might do is part of how possible tactics are determined.
Jem'Hadar trying to lug the bodies of their fallen comrades into battle ill just slow them down and leave them exposed to fire longer.
The fact they are far stronger than humans is just whizzing by you, isn't it?

As is the fact that they are running from a bottle neck, where the only point they will run into Starfleet people to their 9 or 3 is after they have broken through the first line of soldiers.
You are proposing a tactic that, if it were valid, would be more useful against phasers on their typical narrow-beam kill setting than it would against a wide-beam phaser (assuming such a thing were actually effective). You are proposing that holding up a dead body in front of you as you try to charge into battle through a choke point would be a good plan. If you really believe that, you must be delusional.
It is a valid option against the wide beam (not conical) as some seem to think is the definition of 'wide beam', but more valid against what was used in the episode, the single beam setting. Jem'Hadar are strong and have a shitload of stamina. Stop thinking they are humans.
And even if there were some shred of sense to the plan, why would the Federation troops actually predict such a response and therefore refrain from using wide-beam phasers?
I have said before, if you read the thread, that it would be a question of conservation of resources. I asked if one wanted to be known as a soldier that needlessly wastes resources, especially when one is not gonna have a resupply come back for some time.
Your "dead body shields" idea is so preposterous that I'm stunned you would even bring it up.
That would be true of me, if what I was saying was different than what I have actually said.
And I think the real argument is that if Federation phasers could actually deliver a lethal or even stunning spread at the kind of range we saw in "The Siege of AR-558" and sustain it, that would have been the ideal time to do it.
You are ignoring what a phaser on wide beam would do to the surrounding environment over the long term. This is what Vympel did. He ignored the secondary effects a wide beam shot would do, as if the surrounding rock regenerated by itself, like you would heal a wound, or as if it was impervious to phaser blasts, like neutronium.

Do you think that there is never any damge to the surrouonding area when slug throwers are ever used? That's a hunk of metal being thrown around. Imagine repeated thermal effects against rock and stone over months and months. Rock and stone is not invulnerable. And do you think the Jem'Hadar, when given the task to hold a position, would not get resupplies of their own? That the only thing the Starfleet people have to worry about is just one grouping of jemmies? That the Dominion would never send in reinforcements or send in more supplies, like more white, more power cells for Dominion rifles?

You aren't taking in all the factors when you accuse what I've said to be wrong.
You're trying to come up with some kind of excuse that involves both effective wide-beam phasers and competent troops, so you dreamed up this deranged "tactic" that the Federation is countering.
I proposed holding dead Jemmies up as a possible extent of how far the Dominion forces would go. This is valid, since they sent a battle bug to kill itself and the jemmies on board when it took out a GCS.

But, I have not said that this is something that has actually happened on the planet.
The "body shields" tactic is still preposterous. Even if the effect of a wide-beam is just to stun the target, lugging bodies forward won't be effective. Unless the Jem'Hadar soldier carrying the body can hold it so that it blocks 100% of the spread beam, it's going to affect him. I don't care if he just gets a stun effect to his leg, he's going to fall down, which will break the charge.
Why? Wide beam is never seen as going up and down. Just left to right. All the jemmie has to do is block the phaser fire that's directly in front of him. Phaser blasts have never been seen to bounce off of rock or dirt. On wide beam, any portion of the blast that gets through is minimal, which I have said before, because the brunt of the discharge would be taken by the body.
I stand by my description. You have proposed an absolutely idiotic plan.
You stand by a description which I have demonstrated on more than one occassion is based on assumptions that are blatantly wrong.
Opecoiler wrote:The world record for sprinting is roughly 10 meters/second, done unencumbered and in an optimal position. As this video shows, running while carrying someone is much slower-and this is a far more efficient carry than what you've been advocating.
And you are saying that the limits of humans should be the limits of Jem'Hadar, despite the fact they are said to be different.
Yes, it is required, and it isn't about holding the bodies sideways. Perpendicular means a perfect 90 degree angle. An off angle wide beam shot will go right past the corpse and hit the Jem'hadar behind it.
The whole time I have been saying they are held in front of the running Jemmies. Why would you assume I meant that it had to be held on the side? Ah, yes. Because you want to apply human limitations to a race of beings genetically engineered to be stronger and tougher than humans.
But carrying a heavy weight will slow you down. In addition to simply providing more weight to move, it puts more pressure on the joints, and means you can't swing your arms.
Heavy is only relative to the one carrying it. In FC, we see Data throw one borg to others, knocking them down. Does that mean borg should be heavy to him when it would be heavy to Deanna, if she tried the same thing? No, because he's super strong. Jemmies are stronger than humans and their muscles can withstand the strain of use longer than humans. Assigning human limits to jemmies when it is said they don't apply is bad.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:54 am

Ted C wrote:It isn't a question of whether they're willing to sacrifice soldiers to achieve a tactical or strategic objective, it's a question of whether the tactic you proposed has any value, which it doesn't.
Let me give you an example: sniping. The work of a sniper is very personal. It's not something that happens in the heat of the moment with one nameless face after another. You have to patiently wait and constantly watch them. When it's someone specific, there are times when you have to wait for days before you can get a decent shot. You learn someone's routine, what they like, what they don't like. Some people can't handle that. If no one could, then there wouldn't be any snipers ever. But, some can. Therefore, the potential of being a sniper is a valid option. After seeing that the opportunity is there for that tactic, then it becomes a question of if it will be done.

Unless you have someone willing to do something, that something won't ever be used. If no one will do it, it doesn't matter how well thought out the idea is because it won't ever get done.

Kane Starkiller
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Post by Kane Starkiller » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:28 pm

I just have to ask, how exactly do you envision Jem'Hadar blocking the entire beam? To show what I mean here is a simplistic picture of the situation:
Image
Two black dots represent federation soldiers, blue square is dead Jem'Hadar and purple is his comrade holding him in front of himself. Green and red cones represent the wide beam field of view. Jem'Hadar can protect himself from one beam but the other will take him full on the side.
In the actual situation there would be multiple federation soldiers flooding the cave with wide beam phasers coming from multiple directions. Explain how could a Jem'Hadar possibly shield himself from such an attack using dead bodies as cover.
The ONLY reason not to do it is if phasers are simply not powerful enough.
GStone wrote:Jem'Hadar are strong and have a shitload of stamina. Stop thinking they are humans.
Care to quantify any of that or do you think that "shitload" is at all useful information or acceptable evidence. In fact in "The search" we see Sisko taking down three Jem'Hadar soldiers. One actually swings his rifle to hit Sisko and he stops his blow cold with his hands. In the end it took three Jem'Hadar to finally subdue Sisko. Sorry but that clearly proves that Jem'Hadar soldiers are NOT stronger than humans.

I would also be very interested in your explanation as to why no one ever tried this tactic in WW1 trench charge warfare. I've just demonstrated above that a Jem'Hadar is not stronger than a human so what could the reason possibly be? WW1 weaponry being more effective than Starfleet's?

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:23 pm

So the advantage of the Jem guys is stamina, and no need for sleep.
Not strenght... ?

GStone
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Post by GStone » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:07 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:I just have to ask, how exactly do you envision Jem'Hadar blocking the entire beam?
Okay, I'll point it out...again, people. I said that even if some of the beam got through, a jemmie holding a dead body in front of them is still good because only a small fraction of the full beam would get by, hitting the jemmie that's holding the body.

Does everyone get that now...or do I have to say it again.
To show what I mean here is a simplistic picture of the situation:
Two black dots represent federation soldiers, blue square is dead Jem'Hadar and purple is his comrade holding him in front of himself. Green and red cones represent the wide beam field of view. Jem'Hadar can protect himself from one beam but the other will take him full on the side.
When the jemmies attacked, they always did it in groups. The bottle neck wasn't too narrow that 2 jemmies holding 2 bodies couldn't stand side-by-side enough to block the focal point of where all the wide beam shots would be focusing on. Also, these bodies wouldn't necessarily need to be ones that were shot by the Starfleet soldiers. Jemmies are killed by their First for something as simple as social disobedience. Jemmies getting killed to be used as shields woldn't be out of the question, since it'd be for the Founders.

In DS9=To The Death:

TOMAN'TORAX
As it should be. It's our duty to
punish those who would break their
vow of loyalty.

And later:

OMET'IKLAN
This is a waste of time.
(to Weyoun)
They'll never succeed as long as
they value their lives more than
victory.

And later:

OMET'IKLAN
It doesn't matter how we know.
The fact is, we know.
(with contempt)
You think you have to lie to us
and use the White to ensure our
loyalty. But the truth is we have
more loyalty to the Founders than
the Vorta ever will. It is the
reason for our existence, the core
of our being.

WEYOUN
There's an entire company of
Jem'Hadar down on Vandros Four who
would disagree with you.

OMET'IKLAN
And for that, they will die.
In the actual situation there would be multiple federation soldiers flooding the cave with wide beam phasers coming from multiple directions. Explain how could a Jem'Hadar possibly shield himself from such an attack using dead bodies as cover.
Multiple jemmies holding bodies up, as they move side-by-side. Also, they had the cliff behind them, as they came out of the bottl neck and to their left, which meant they had even less directions to protect from incoming phaser fire.
The ONLY reason not to do it is if phasers are simply not powerful enough.
Just because you have the option of suicide missions, it doesn't mean that you must use it all the time.
Care to quantify any of that or do you think that "shitload" is at all useful information or acceptable evidence.
I had already explained what it meant earlier in the thread. After some time, you give up saying all the specifics and generalize what you said previously for shorthand.

Since you don't want to read my past posts thoroughly:

DS9=To The Death:

DAX
There must be something else you'd
rather do. Maybe get some sleep?

VIRAK'KARA
We don't sleep.

DAX
How about have something to eat?

VIRAK'KARA
The White is the only thing we
need.

DAX
You don't sleep or eat? What do
you do for relaxation?

VIRAK'KARA
Relaxation would only make us weak.

DAX
You people are no fun at all. I'm
glad I'm not a Jem'Hadar woman.

VIRAK'KARA
There are no Jem'Hadar women.

DAX
So what do you do? Lay eggs?

VIRAK'KARA
(with pride)
Jem'Hadar are bred in birthing
chambers. We are able to fight
within days of our emergence.

DAX
(without enthusiasm)
Lucky you.
(a beat)
So let me get this straight...
... no food, no sleep, no women.
No wonder you're so angry. After
thirty or forty years of that, I'd
be angry too.

VIRAK'KARA
No Jem'Hadar has ever lived thirty
years.

DAX
How old are you?

VIRAK'KARA
I am eight.

DAX
(covering her surprise)
I would've guessed at least
fifteen.

VIRAK'KARA
Few Jem'Hadar live that long. If
we reach twenty we are considered
"Honored Elders."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No food, no sleep, no rest or relaxation. Even if you chose 12 years as a figure, that's a shitload of stamina for everyday work that isn't strenuous. Now, factor in a genetic urge to fight (DS9-The Abandoned), that pushes it up further. They also don't put chairs on their ships.

That is what I mean by a 'shitload of stamina'.
In fact in "The search" we see Sisko taking down three Jem'Hadar soldiers. One actually swings his rifle to hit Sisko and he stops his blow cold with his hands. In the end it took three Jem'Hadar to finally subdue Sisko.
And adrenaline lets human women lift cars off kids.
Sorry but that clearly proves that Jem'Hadar soldiers are NOT stronger than humans.
No, it doesn't. I'll explain. First, look to Worf. In DS9='Let He who is Without Sin...", he picks up Pascal Fullerton, a human and keeps him dangling in the air. Then, he throws him across the room and he isn't even breathing heavily. Throughout TNG, it is shown that klingons are stronger than humans pound for pound, as well as in "LHWIWS...". But, when he's captured by the Dominion, he's getting his ass kicked over and over again. The reason the fights keep going is because he isn't giving up, but he's still loosing and he's getting beaten to death. We've also seen him destroy a remote with his rifle by swinging it like a club (Insurrection) and taking a mak'leth and chopping up borg in First Contact. Something you don't see humans doing.

My first impulse was to point to To the Death and say that the First that was on the Defiant, Omet'Iklan, snapped the neck of another Jemmie. Regular humans can not so effortlessly snapped another human's neck because of the large flexibility inherent in the body part. It's much easier to break a femur than the neck because it is one long bone with no joints between the hip and the knee. But, you might say that that's a hollywood/movie trick that shouldn't be taken seriously. So, I went with the Jemmie/Worf relationship.
I would also be very interested in your explanation as to why no one ever tried this tactic in WW1 trench charge warfare.
Humans are not Jem'Hadar. Applying human limitations to them is in error.
I've just demonstrated above that a Jem'Hadar is not stronger than a human so what could the reason possibly be?
No, you didn't. What you did was take a single incident and took it isoltion from the rest of the canon. Your analysis is off because it didn't have all the information that was relevent.

As for a reason why it wasn't used in the episode, look to what I said above.

"Just because you have the option of suicide missions, it doesn't mean that you must use it all the time."

That's me saying that.
WW1 weaponry being more effective than Starfleet's?
Without Starfleet's jamming technology, the Jemmies transport behind and kill the people using WW1 weapons.

Your proposal is flawed.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:38 pm

GStone wrote:Okay, I'll point it out...again, people. I said that even if some of the beam got through, a jemmie holding a dead body in front of them is still good because only a small fraction of the full beam would get by, hitting the jemmie that's holding the body.

Does everyone get that now...or do I have to say it again.
So you are saying that when set to wide beam and at ranges at which AR-558 was fought beam's intensity becomes to small to affect a soldier? That was the point in the first place.
GStone wrote:When the jemmies attacked, they always did it in groups. The bottle neck wasn't too narrow that 2 jemmies holding 2 bodies couldn't stand side-by-side enough to block the focal point of where all the wide beam shots would be focusing on.

Yes they did it in groups and they weren't in any kind of formation. In fact if you watch the episode you'll see that the entire group is exposed as it charges into the cave so wide beam shot would take out ALL of them and there would be no one left to pick up the dead bodies.
GStone wrote:Also, these bodies wouldn't necessarily need to be ones that were shot by the Starfleet soldiers. Jemmies are killed by their First for something as simple as social disobedience. Jemmies getting killed to be used as shields woldn't be out of the question, since it'd be for the Founders.
First of all this is ridiculous. If you want to use shields use actual shields like the ones riot police uses.
This is all beside the point since they DIDN'T use any kind of shields and a single wide beam shot would have taken them all down if it was powerful enough.
GStone wrote:Multiple jemmies holding bodies up, as they move side-by-side. Also, they had the cliff behind them, as they came out of the bottl neck and to their left, which meant they had even less directions to protect from incoming phaser fire.
Now you are modifying the Jem'Hadar attack beyond recognition. The entire point was the usefulness of the wide beam against Jem'Hadar attck AS WE SAW IT. Obviously if you go ahead and modify their tactics you can make up whatever you want. Of course you claimed that wide beam phasers could actually destroy the entire bottleneck and if they were that powerful Jem'Hadar bodies would offer no protection.
GStone wrote:
The ONLY reason not to do it is if phasers are simply not powerful enough.
Just because you have the option of suicide missions, it doesn't mean that you must use it all the time.
How would killing the entire Jem'Hadar squad in a single stroke be a suicide?

GStone wrote:I had already explained what it meant earlier in the thread. After some time, you give up saying all the specifics and generalize what you said previously for shorthand.
Since you don't want to read my past posts thoroughly:
snip script
No food, no sleep, no rest or relaxation. Even if you chose 12 years as a figure, that's a shitload of stamina for everyday work that isn't strenuous. Now, factor in a genetic urge to fight (DS9-The Abandoned), that pushes it up further. They also don't put chairs on their ships.
That is what I mean by a 'shitload of stamina'.
And what does this have to do with your claims of Jem'Hadar superior speed and superior strength which are the only things relevant for your proposed tactics?
GStone wrote:And adrenaline lets human women lift cars off kids.
And this changes the fact that Jem'Hadar are not stronger than humans how exactly?
GStone wrote:No, it doesn't. I'll explain. First, look to Worf. In DS9='Let He who is Without Sin...", he picks up Pascal Fullerton, a human and keeps him dangling in the air. Then, he throws him across the room and he isn't even breathing heavily. Throughout TNG, it is shown that klingons are stronger than humans pound for pound, as well as in "LHWIWS...". But, when he's captured by the Dominion, he's getting his ass kicked over and over again.

How much does Fullerton weigh. Ever saw World's strongest men competition?
GStone wrote:The reason the fights keep going is because he isn't giving up, but he's still loosing and he's getting beaten to death. We've also seen him destroy a remote with his rifle by swinging it like a club (Insurrection) and taking a mak'leth and chopping up borg in First Contact. Something you don't see humans doing.
Yes it took something like 12 Jem'Hadar to take him down and before the last fight he already suffered multiple broken ribs and was still winning against them. How strong is the remote? How tough is Borg armor?
GStone wrote:My first impulse was to point to To the Death and say that the First that was on the Defiant, Omet'Iklan, snapped the neck of another Jemmie. Regular humans can not so effortlessly snapped another human's neck because of the large flexibility inherent in the body part. It's much easier to break a femur than the neck because it is one long bone with no joints between the hip and the knee. But, you might say that that's a hollywood/movie trick that shouldn't be taken seriously. So, I went with the Jemmie/Worf relationship.
Or Jem'Hadar have weaker necks.
GStone wrote:Humans are not Jem'Hadar. Applying human limitations to them is in error.
Tell this to Sisko.
GStone wrote:No, you didn't. What you did was take a single incident and took it isoltion from the rest of the canon. Your analysis is off because it didn't have all the information that was relevent.
It wasn't a single incident since he takes down three soldiers. I could point out that Kira also beats them quite handily but then again maybe you'll claim that Bajorans are also super strong.
GStone wrote:As for a reason why it wasn't used in the episode, look to what I said above.
"Just because you have the option of suicide missions, it doesn't mean that you must use it all the time."
That's me saying that.
You began with a proposition of Jem'Hadar picking up a fallen comrade in the middle of battle and quickly positioning the body in front of himself before he too gets hit. Now you have decided to completely change their observed tactics to claim that they'll actually march on in densely packed columns holding pre-killed soldiers as a way of protection. In other words you have now completely changed the scenario. The point was usefulness of the supposed high energy wide beams against the OBSERVED Jem'Hadar attack tactic. And you still seem oblivious to the fact that if phasers are powerful enough to blow up the entire bottleneck those bodies won't offer any protection.
GStone wrote:Without Starfleet's jamming technology, the Jemmies transport behind and kill the people using WW1 weapons.
Your proposal is flawed.
You haven't answered my question. Why weren't these tactics used in WW1. Is WW1 weaponry more effective than Starfleet's? Transporters have nothing to do with the point.

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Post by GStone » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:22 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
GStone wrote:Okay, I'll point it out...again, people. I said that even if some of the beam got through, a jemmie holding a dead body in front of them is still good because only a small fraction of the full beam would get by, hitting the jemmie that's holding the body.

Does everyone get that now...or do I have to say it again.
So you are saying that when set to wide beam and at ranges at which AR-558 was fought beam's intensity becomes to small to affect a soldier? That was the point in the first place.
When I read this, I had to do a double take. There is absolutely no way you could have gotten that from what I wrote.

So, I will break it down even further.

Say, you have a phaser blast that will deal out a representative 100 units of force for the total output that beam has produced. Now, when you put something in the way of those 100 units that gets rid of say 90-95% of the total units of force, what gets by is the last 5-10%. Now, taking a wide beam phaser blast that's set to kill, but not disintegrate, 5-10% of that amount of force will hurt like a motherfucker, but it won't kill.

What you're claiming is the point in the first place was not the point when I brought it up.

Pay attention.
Yes they did it in groups and they weren't in any kind of formation. In fact if you watch the episode you'll see that the entire group is exposed as it charges into the cave so wide beam shot would take out ALL of them and there would be no one left to pick up the dead bodies.
If they were holding the bodies in front of them, why would they charge? You are pretending like they couldn't even act with coordinated efforts. This is contradictory to what we have seen, especially in both small and large fleet engagements.
First of all this is ridiculous. If you want to use shields use actual shields like the ones riot police uses.
This is all beside the point since they DIDN'T use any kind of shields and a single wide beam shot would have taken them all down if it was powerful enough.
And you continue to ignore any secondary effects that a phaser has on the surrounding environment, like what would happen would magically go away or not even happen at all.

And if this is really a moot point, why is it that this particular argument is the one that has brought you back here to post? You say it's moot, but you keep arguing it anyway.
Now you are modifying the Jem'Hadar attack beyond recognition. The entire point was the usefulness of the wide beam against Jem'Hadar attck AS WE SAW IT.
What the hell is wrong with you? I have never suggested that the use of jemmie bodies as shields should only be thought of in how they came out of the bottle neck as shown in the episode. And no one would expect that they wouldn't alter how they came out of the bottle neck. In DS9=To The Death, we see they are capable of individual and coordinated plans. That was the point of them training with the Starfleet people before they got to the planet with the iconian gateway on it.
Obviously if you go ahead and modify their tactics you can make up whatever you want.
And you are insisting that Starfleet change their tactics by setting their phasers to wide beam kill. You're saying only Starfleet is supposed to change tactics, but the jemmies are to be mindless animals. That's a double standard.
Of course you claimed that wide beam phasers could actually destroy the entire bottleneck and if they were that powerful Jem'Hadar bodies would offer no protection.
Wide beam kill and conical disintegration are in the canon. Rock is also NOT INDESTRUCTABLE.
How would killing the entire Jem'Hadar squad in a single stroke be a suicide?
Oh, Lord. It's suicide for the Jem'Hadar.
And what does this have to do with your claims of Jem'Hadar superior speed and superior strength which are the only things relevant for your proposed tactics?
You asked for evidence of their superior strength and stamina. I gave it to you. I also provided evidence of their social structure amongst other Jem'Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders.

I know you understood the point of me providing it.
And this changes the fact that Jem'Hadar are not stronger than humans how exactly?
You don't remember what you wrote? Fine. You said:

"In fact in "The search" we see Sisko taking down three Jem'Hadar soldiers. One actually swings his rifle to hit Sisko and he stops his blow cold with his hands. In the end it took three Jem'Hadar to finally subdue Sisko. Sorry but that clearly proves that Jem'Hadar soldiers are NOT stronger than humans."

In a not surprising fashion, you took a single incident of a human fending off Jemmies. But, you used that as proof that Jemmies are not stronger than humans, which you admitted to by saying it proves your point.

I gave an example of a human doing something we normally don't do. And that is lifting cars off small children. I also gave a reason for it happening: adrenaline.

When a human lifts a car off a child because of adrenaline, are we to say they they can't be human because of this one incident?

You need to stop acting like you don't understand what is being said.
How much does Fullerton weigh. Ever saw World's strongest men competition?
He probably weighs somewhere between 160 and 200 hundred. Now, Michael Dorn does not have the body of someone competing in the World Strongest Men competition. He couldn't make it to the finals. The reason for Worf's strength is his genetics that he built upon by working out.
Yes it took something like 12 Jem'Hadar to take him down and before the last fight he already suffered multiple broken ribs and was still winning against them.
He wasn't winning anything. He was getting his ass beat. Remember the button he had to push to keep the match ups going? He was crawling to it each time and he was doing it painfully.
How strong is the remote? How tough is Borg armor?
You tell me. It wouldn't hurt you to actually do research on the canon.
Or Jem'Hadar have weaker necks.
Of course. A race bred for battle is gonna have a deliberate weakness of weaker neck. Tell me. What's your evidence for such an assertion?
Tell this to Sisko.
You can't hand wave the canon. Do better next time.
It wasn't a single incident since he takes down three soldiers. I could point out that Kira also beats them quite handily but then again maybe you'll claim that Bajorans are also super strong.
Youu need to give up the part of your ego that's trying to save face when you make a ridiculous argument, like this and trying to split hairs. Adrenaline doesn't just shut off, which you'd if you actually had any biology knowledge. That makes it a single incident.

You're making this way too easy for anyone to show how wrong you are.
You began with a proposition of Jem'Hadar picking up a fallen comrade in the middle of battle and quickly positioning the body in front of himself before he too gets hit.
I never even implied that. You said that only because you don't want to pay attention to my posts.

Do you even know what it would mean to have the idea of a 'human shield' before fighting? It would require planning it beforehand. That means some people moving front to back. I was never talking about just charging en mass and then, grabbing someone to use as a shield.

You can't even keep my own context right, can you? You gotta substitute your own when your argument continues its downward spiral.
The point was usefulness of the supposed high energy wide beams against the OBSERVED Jem'Hadar attack tactic.
You haven't even been in this thread at all till now. It was proposed by me in reference to the use of a nondisintegrating wide beam setting on Starfleet soldiers' phasers. The entire proposal had absolutely nothing to do with the jemmies just bum rushing.

The only ones that would think that are those that are incapable of reading the thread to see just what has been said.
And you still seem oblivious to the fact that if phasers are powerful enough to blow up the entire bottleneck those bodies won't offer any protection.
The point I have stood behind is that they wouldn't fuck up the bottle neck because it is tactically stupid. First, they are trying to protect a comm relay. They have transporter inhibitors and a physical bottle neck from the rock formation. It's gonna be a while before Starfleet resupplies them and there are jemmies at their back door, who also would be getting their own supplies, too.

In that situation, you don't fuck up a physical barrier like that because the relay was of military importance. That's why the jemmies were trying to get through. That is why the Dominion hadn't given up on trying to get control of it. Transporters would have gotten them to it quickly, but because of the starfleet transport inhibitors, they had to go in through the bottle neck. Jemmies can cloak, but they can't pass through solid matter, especially rock.

That is why wide beam wasn't used and single streams were, which results in the jemmies not needing to use their own soldiers to shield others from wide beam phaser shots. Tactically, wide beam is smart, but it doesn't work in the long term for this scenario because you will fuck yourself up.

If you bothered to pay attention to the episode and this thread, you would have understood all of that.
You haven't answered my question. Why weren't these tactics used in WW1.
Your question was based on very bad information. Jem'Hadar are stronger and have more stamina than humans. Also, there were no phasers in WW1 so the idea of using someone to block a wide beam shot is moot.
Is WW1 weaponry more effective than Starfleet's? Transporters have nothing to do with the point.
It does. It's defenseive tech, just like your side's insistence of using barbed wire to stop the jemmies or planting land mines, even though there are weapons usesd in Trek's battlefield that disintegrate solid matter easily.

Slugthrowers, land mines and barbed wire are no match for transporters/transporter inhibitors, phasers, photon grenades, theater/personal force fields, etc.

When you want to talk about ammo, it sucks because slugthrowers need to be replenished with more solid matter. Phasers just need energy. So, again, WW1 weaponry is shit in comparison.

Next time, pay more attention to what we are saying.



Your entire line of logic is a STRAWMAN.

Unless you have something to say that isn't a strawman, I'm not speaking with you anymore on this issue.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:04 am

GStone wrote:When I read this, I had to do a double take. There is absolutely no way you could have gotten that from what I wrote.
So, I will break it down even further.
Say, you have a phaser blast that will deal out a representative 100 units of force for the total output that beam has produced. Now, when you put something in the way of those 100 units that gets rid of say 90-95% of the total units of force, what gets by is the last 5-10%. Now, taking a wide beam phaser blast that's set to kill, but not disintegrate, 5-10% of that amount of force will hurt like a motherfucker, but it won't kill.
What you're claiming is the point in the first place was not the point when I brought it up.
Pay attention.
Ah I see. So Federation soldiers will set their phasers to such a setting that full spread across the chest will kill the Jem'Hadar but if smaller percentages are applied it will only "hurt like a motherfucker". How convenient.
So you don't figure there is some room between stun and "destroying the bottleneck" to set the phasers at? So as to eliminate the bodies but not destroy the bottleneck? IF the phasers were capable of such power levels.
GStone wrote:And you are insisting that Starfleet change their tactics by setting their phasers to wide beam kill. You're saying only Starfleet is supposed to change tactics, but the jemmies are to be mindless animals. That's a double standard.
Yes let's pretend that pushing the "wide beam" button is changing tactics. The point, which you keep evading, is that wide beam (if the phasers were powerful enough) would be perfect for suppressing incoming Jem'Hadar advance and would've effortlessly dealt with the Jem'Hadar attack as seen in the episode. If the Jem'Hadar tried to use a different tactics then they can set the phasers to a different setting.
Or even, and get this one, set a few of the phasers to wide beam with the rest on normal mode.
IF the phasers were capable of such power levels.
GStone wrote:Wide beam kill and conical disintegration are in the canon. Rock is also NOT INDESTRUCTABLE.
Wide beam kill at a range of 5m and against completely unarmored individuals and not actually demonstrated at that.
Conical disintegration completely unquantifiable at a range of less than a meter against an extremely thin rock.

GStone wrote:You asked for evidence of their superior strength and stamina. I gave it to you. I also provided evidence of their social structure amongst other Jem'Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders.

I know you understood the point of me providing it.
You gave evidence that Jem'Hadar don't need sleep, relaxation and are ready to fight within days of birth. Where is your evidence they can run faster than a human or carry heavier loads?

GStone wrote:In a not surprising fashion, you took a single incident of a human fending off Jemmies. But, you used that as proof that Jemmies are not stronger than humans, which you admitted to by saying it proves your point.
I gave an example of a human doing something we normally don't do. And that is lifting cars off small children. I also gave a reason for it happening: adrenaline.
When a human lifts a car off a child because of adrenaline, are we to say they they can't be human because of this one incident?
You need to stop acting like you don't understand what is being said.
You are making excuses now. We see a human defeating 3 Jem'Hadar. You say it's the adrenaline. Prove it. And explain what's the point since adrenaline is part of normal human biology and serves for exactly the purpose of enhancing human strength in dangerous conditions. How exactly are those extraordinary conditions?
GStone wrote:He probably weighs somewhere between 160 and 200 hundred. Now, Michael Dorn does not have the body of someone competing in the World Strongest Men competition. He couldn't make it to the finals. The reason for Worf's strength is his genetics that he built upon by working out.
And this changes the fact that Worf does not in fact show strength significantly above human how exactly?
GStone wrote:He wasn't winning anything. He was getting his ass beat. Remember the button he had to push to keep the match ups going? He was crawling to it each time and he was doing it painfully.
Are you now going to lie to my face? Didn't he knock out several Jem'Hadar soldiers during several days until ultimately engaging the commander? Are you seriously denying that he won several matches?
Gstone wrote:
Kane Starkiller wrote:How strong is the remote? How tough is Borg armor?
You tell me. It wouldn't hurt you to actually do research on the canon.
You are hilarious. You mention Worf destroying drones and killing Borg claiming they are evidence of his superior strength and when I ask you to back up your claims with quantification of said events you shift the burden of proof to me.
GStone wrote:Of course. A race bred for battle is gonna have a deliberate weakness of weaker neck. Tell me. What's your evidence for such an assertion?
Again you shift the burden of proof to me. You claimed that Jem'Hadar neck snapping proved their strength. So go ahead and prove it: provide evidence as to how strong their necks are.
GStone wrote:
Kane Starkiller wrote:Tell this to Sisko.
You can't hand wave the canon. Do better next time.
Sisko took out 3 jemmies in quick succesion. You can deny it all you like.
GStone wrote:Youu need to give up the part of your ego that's trying to save face when you make a ridiculous argument, like this and trying to split hairs. Adrenaline doesn't just shut off, which you'd if you actually had any biology knowledge. That makes it a single incident.
You're making this way too easy for anyone to show how wrong you are.
Pretending that your vague allusion to adrenaline is a hard fact now? PROVE that Sisko was under the influence of adrenaline that somehow enhanced it's strength beyond human norm.
I see a human beating up Jem'Hadar soldiers, point that out and you charge in with 101 excuse and then I'm the one with ego.
GStone wrote:Your question was based on very bad information. Jem'Hadar are stronger and have more stamina than humans.
Which you haven't proven.
GStone wrote:Also, there were no phasers in WW1 so the idea of using someone to block a wide beam shot is moot.
WOULD IT WORK? See if it wouldn't work then WW1 weapons are more effective.
GStone wrote:It does. It's defenseive tech, just like your side's insistence of using barbed wire to stop the jemmies or planting land mines, even though there are weapons usesd in Trek's battlefield that disintegrate solid matter easily.
Slugthrowers, land mines and barbed wire are no match for transporters/transporter inhibitors, phasers, photon grenades, theater/personal force fields, etc.
When you want to talk about ammo, it sucks because slugthrowers need to be replenished with more solid matter. Phasers just need energy. So, again, WW1 weaponry is shit in comparison.
Next time, pay more attention to what we are saying.
You are still evading the point. The question is very simple:
Why didn't WW1 armies use this "hide behind dead bodies" technique. No one had jamming and transporters in WW1. Yet those tactics weren't tried ONCE. Why?
Oh and by the way. Back up your claim that phasers "just need energy" since we've seen Defiant's spent phaser "clips".

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Post by GStone » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:28 am

I was gonna say that this post of yours was just as bad as the one before it. But, then I finished reading it all and found it to be even worse when it comes to its false underlining reasoning.

I wouldn't know where to begin with trying to explain how you screwed up your own logic. So, I'm just gonna say that there's no point in discussing this with you any longer.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:56 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:How much does Fullerton weigh. Ever saw World's strongest men competition?
I see those events quite often, but it seems you didn't, or didn't understand what you were seeing Kane.
Show me once, in any competition, one athlete lift a 150 pound weight effortlessly with one arm fully extended for 5 seconds, then with that same arm throw that weight 6-10 feet away, and I'll agree that Worf demonstrated that he is only as strong as one of the entire world's Strongest Man.
Because if you look carefully at the incident, you can see that Worf doesn't shake while holding the man up in the air, doesn't look at all like he is exerting himself.
And if you even knew anything about weighlifting, you'd know that in order to lift such a weight the way Worf did, it would mean that your shoulder is doing most of the work, and at the angle of the lift, that shoulder would indeed be straining against that weight.

And GStone is right when he says that Worf has nowhere near the built of our World's Strongest Man competitors.
He may me as tall as some of them, but he has nowhere near their muscle mass or volume.
Saying otherwise, or saying he didn't do anything special is dishonesty at its best.

But, I will agree with you on a point, Kane.
Contrary to what GStone is saying, Worf was indeed winning in all his matches, except for the last one, where his accumulated injuries were too much for him, and the First he was facing was indeed kicking his a**.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Praeothmin wrote:I see those events quite often, but it seems you didn't, or didn't understand what you were seeing Kane.
Show me once, in any competition, one athlete lift a 150 pound weight effortlessly with one arm fully extended for 5 seconds, then with that same arm throw that weight 6-10 feet away, and I'll agree that Worf demonstrated that he is only as strong as one of the entire world's Strongest Man.
Because if you look carefully at the incident, you can see that Worf doesn't shake while holding the man up in the air, doesn't look at all like he is exerting himself.
And if you even knew anything about weighlifting, you'd know that in order to lift such a weight the way Worf did, it would mean that your shoulder is doing most of the work, and at the angle of the lift, that shoulder would indeed be straining against that weight.
So Worf doesn't "look like" he is exerting himself and that makes him significantly stronger than humans? I have seen humans lift 150lbs with one hand. There are even youtube vids. Of course it is entirely possible that there are a number of Klingons who are stronger than any human. This has nothing to do with whether Klingons as a race are significantly stronger than humans.
Praeothmin wrote:And GStone is right when he says that Worf has nowhere near the built of our World's Strongest Man competitors.
He may me as tall as some of them, but he has nowhere near their muscle mass or volume.
Saying otherwise, or saying he didn't do anything special is dishonesty at its best.
Really. And how much muscle mass does major Kira have? You remember major Kira beating the shit out of Klingons in Way of the Warrior right? Even after one of them sticks a knife into her she still finishes him off.
Or AGAIN captain Sisko mowing Klingons left and right. Klingons armed with bat'leths while he himself using bare hands.
Dukat also fared well fighting Klingons with a bat'leth.


Of course this entire point is a red herring since we are talking about Jem'Hadar strength not Klingon.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:I have seen humans lift 150lbs with one hand. There are even youtube vids.
Lifting how?
And how massive are they?
Could you post links to the vids, I'd be really interested to see them.
Thanks.
Now, on the topic at hand, I can, with one hand, lift a 125 pounds weight off of the ground, but there's no way i'd be able to lift it over my head the way Worf lifts that human in the DS9 Risa episode.
There's a huge difference in lifting a weight, and lifting that same weight with one arm extended overhead for 3-5 seconds without shaking, grunting, in other words, without displaying any efforts on your part.
So Worf doesn't "look like" he is exerting himself and that makes him significantly stronger than humans?
Perhaps not significantly stronger then some of the strongest human beings out of a 7 Billion population, but definitly way above any normal person.
I don't know anybody able to lift 150 pounds like Worf did.
None of my friends, and, judging by the weight they manipulate, none of the strong guys at my gym either (and some of these guys can bench quite some wieght, believe me).
This has nothing to do with whether Klingons as a race are significantly stronger than humans.
I agree.
As it had been said in some other threads, the Klingons, as a race, have never been successfully portrayed as having superior strenght as humans.
Really. And how much muscle mass does major Kira have? You remember major Kira beating the shit out of Klingons in Way of the Warrior right? Even after one of them sticks a knife into her she still finishes him off.
Or AGAIN captain Sisko mowing Klingons left and right. Klingons armed with bat'leths while he himself using bare hands.
Dukat also fared well fighting Klingons with a bat'leth.


Of course this entire point is a red herring since we are talking about Jem'Hadar strength not Klingon.
Your points, IMO, are valid.
But bringing up Worf in this instant is valid, because we know (due to the Risa incident) that Worf (not all Klingons, just Worf) is much stronger then an average human, then even a relatively strong human.
This relates to the Jem'Hadar strength in that Worf wasn't throwing them around like rag dolls.


This being said, I feel that the strength of any race or characters in ST in most of the time portrayed in really bad ways, expecially in the examples Kane brings up.

Apart from Data, 7 of 9, Tuvok or Worf, we have rarely seen the "strong" races do anything more impressive then their human counterparts.
In fights, human punches seem to hit as hard as any other races.
Races that are, in-universe, recognised for their toughness (Klingons) go down easily in their HtH fights.
This makes all debates such as this one hard for anybody to prove anything...

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:15 am

This thread is going nowhere productive (or polite) quite quickly. If it doesn't shape up, I think it may be better off locked.

Locked