Starfleet military vs. RL military

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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:08 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
GStone wrote:
Edit: If you're gonna quote a script, you should be more aware of it. Later in the episode, we learn that the power levels the planet has are greater than ours.

DATA
(continuing)
The fusion generator is
overloading.
(turns to her)
You are attempting to disable the
defense system. For what reason?
We have rescued the crewmen.
In a gosh darn overload, which is a retarded statement in itself.

In non-Kendall/SDN speak that means that he cannot answer to your point. Concession accepted. ;-)
-Mike

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:16 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:[


In non-Kendall/SDN speak that means that he cannot answer to your point. Concession accepted. ;-)
-Mike
No, it means the reactor overloaded. That means it is putting out more than it's designed output. Not a valid sample of it's power output nor is an actual output stated.

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:24 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:No I said that the infrastructure was crumbling, colony factions were raiding each other for supplies. Why should we assume that the powerplants are functioning at peak capability when everything else is in the shitter?
Because they were raiding each other for supplies. While that means that their power plants might not be operating at maximum capacity most of the time (as well as the power conduits passing along energy with those levels), that doesn't mean that technology has regressed to approximately 1990-2010 earth power generation levels. That's an almost 400 year downgrade.
Reference various war torn countries and see what happens to the power infrastructure. Where the hell are they getting the fuel from?
We know that fusion does exist on the colony. They're doing better than we are, despite the damage. This would mean that the underground structures would really have needed to have been built some time before the fighting started.

Fuel? For nuclear fusion? Come on. You should have figured this one out on your own. If they have fusion, underground deposits of heavy water or some kind of 'heavy water generator'. The structure is underground. There might even be some use of geothermal for some part of the process, since they are underground.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:29 pm

GStone wrote: Because they were raiding each other for supplies. While that means that their power plants might not be operating at maximum capacity most of the time (as well as the power conduits passing along energy with those levels), that doesn't mean that technology has regressed to approximately 1990-2010 earth power generation levels. That's an almost 400 year downgrade.
You assume that these plants even had a massive capacity when they were fully maintained.
We know that fusion does exist on the colony. They're doing better than we are, despite the damage. This would mean that the underground structures would really have needed to have been built some time before the fighting started.
Just because fusion is available doesn't mean that the power output is actually massive.
Fuel? For nuclear fusion? Come on. You should have figured this one out on your own. If they have fusion, underground deposits of heavy water or some kind of 'heavy water generator'. The structure is underground. There might even be some use of geothermal for some part of the process, since they are underground.
And naturally this infrastructure will be well maintained as well.

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:32 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Even granting that they may be just wearing ceremonial armor in all cases, the fact that single shots can literally burn right through a person and those thick layers of whatever is quite an astounding display of power for a beam weapon.
Cpl Kendall wrote:

There is no proof that their "armour" is anything but what it appears to be. And I've yet to see a ST weapon actually burn straight through a person. Thick layers my ass, if you look at clothes you can tell that it's thin. It has to be to remain flexable.
But yet the cardassian "clothing" is not that flexible (ridged clearly, even in the earliest incarnation), except at the joints, just like your over-hyped version of modern day armor.

As for burning through someone, just look more carefully at the examples given in the thread I pointed out to you. But I won't suprise me to see you handwave away that as well, too.




Well no duh there. Of course they are taught that! But that's not the point. A phaser beam can still hit an unprotected part of the body (assuming your magical, phaser-blocking version of modern day body armor exists). If a phaser shot to the chest doesn't work, well shoot the bastard in the head or arm or leg where the armor doesn't protect him, which is where the point about SF officers and troops training using rapidly moving lights on the holodeck comes into play. They will be ready to change up and shoot something small, like the gaps in the armor, if need be in an instant.
Your as sharp as a sack of wet mice aren't you? Hitting a target outside of the torso is incredibly difficult under the best conditions, add in combat and the rate of rounds expended to hits can drop to as little as 30%. You have to aim for the center of mass to get the maximum possible chance for a hit. ST troops with their lack of hard training and experiance are likely to fair even worse. And with their incredibly shitty weapons designs it will be next to impossible to hit limb targets at range.

I love seeing you slowly fall apart here, Kendall. You fall back on the tired old SDN/Wongian/Poe tactic of throwing around insults instead of actually addressing the point.

I also love how SF troops "have no experiance" dispite several years straight of fighting the Borg, Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion, and Breen!

But please, keep on with the handwaving. It's amusing.

Certainly the body armor leaves potential gaps to be exploited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inte ... _armor.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... image1.jpg

Note the exposed forearms, thighs, face, neck, hips, lower legs, ect. Prime targets all.

Kinda interesting because it resembles the Federation troop body armor seen in DS9's "Nor the Battle the Strong...":
I've already adressed this.
Tried to with handwaving.

But frankly speaking, the phaser beam will likely just burn right through the kevlar and ceramics of the Marines just fine.

Links to Trekcore that show nothing, nice.
You have the URLs there, you can look them up, if need be.

The links don't work for some reason, probably Trekcore not wanting people taking up too much of their bandwidth.

If you really want to see the image, just click on the screencaps section for DS9, then click on season 5, "Nor the Battle the Strong" is easily found
and the images are on page 15.

Who said anything about high power (that is the maximum, or near maximum power of the phaser)? Please read what I wrote more carefully Kendall. Setting seven on a scale of sixteen that can heat an alloy up to 2,300 degrees C is hardly "high-power". At worst that's moderate range power.
You said high setting.
No, that is your own misunderstanding. I gave a setting and range of possible uses. If I wrote something that confused you, then I'am sorry, but at no point did I mean to suggest that.
But on that matter, we have in TOS' "The Omega Glory" where renegade Captain Ronald Tracey formerly of the U.S.S. Exeter along with four of his Kohm henchmen kill thousands of Yangs with their phasers. Tracey is later shown chasing Kirk and shooting at him with the high-power "disintegrate" mode, which argues that at least hundreds of such shots are possible before power pack exaustion.
Barbarions with fur do not an argument against armour make.
As is typical, you missed the point, which was about an example of a renegade SF officer using a phaser pistol less advanced than TNG-era tech, and yet was able to kill hundreds, if not a thousand people with a phaser set on disintegrate mode (the highest possible on a TOS-era phaser).
Now are you seriously telling me that a squad or platoon of Marines is going to be able to hold out against that for very long? I don't think so. However, we are talking here about the lower/moderate settings providing ample enough power to burn holes through the Marines' armor and through them out to the other side, and still leave plenty of "ammo" for the SF troops.
-Mike
ST weapons are short range, unergonomic and produce no shrapnell. The Marines can sit outside of range and pour fire into them and the ST goons won't be able to do anything. Add in grenades, heavy weapons and vehicles and they are fucked.
And yet they often hit their targets, even from range, and using a phaser on disintgration mode doesn't limit their "ammo" in the way that you want it to. If you want to add in mortar artillery, then SF gets the photon grenades from "Arena" [TOS], and "Legacy" [TNG], as well as the various flash-bang grenades and explosive devices they've been shown or mentioned using over the course of all five series. A single photon grenade from about 1,500 meters ought to settle the issue.
-Mike

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:49 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:No, it means the reactor overloaded. That means it is putting out more than it's designed output. Not a valid sample of it's power output nor is an actual output stated.
And we're talking about fusion technology of around the mid 24th century. There was also this bit in the script, too:

DATA
What is this structure?

ISHARA
A main fusion source -- there's
one next to each of the Alliance
headquarters. It powers all their
defensive systems.

Now, even if they were to substitue our fusion technology, it wouldn't be viable. Otherwise, we would already be using fusion technology to power most things. Now, there are more recent ideas of fusion for homes, but the more ubiquitous version is insufficient for the needs of the world. It wouldn't be possible for them to uses our fusion knowledge for their defenses. We also produce way too much waste.

The Federation is very open with its technology to those of its colonies, like in TNG: The Survivors. And the reference to a main fusion source indicates that there are others around. Don't go complaining now.

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Post by GStone » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:06 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:You assume that these plants even had a massive capacity when they were fully maintained.
In TNG: Who Watches the Watchers, there is reference to a fusion generator of a specific output. At this point in the timeline, it's reasonable to think that there is some similarity to the output of the generators of similary 'weight classes' on the colony.

GEORDI
We've finished replicating the
parts they need.
(a beat)
What I don't understand is why
a three-man station needs a
reactor that can produce
four-point-two gigawatts.

RIKER
That's enough to power a small
phaser bank, a subspace relay
station, or...

GEORDI
(putting it together)
... a hologram generator. Right
-- a "duck blind."


Now, each of these devices are small. If you're gonna power an entire planetary colony, the output would be much higher. And the difference between what the E-D has onboard and what was on Turkana would probably be no more than a generation or so, since the difference would only be about 20 years or so at the most. There is also the chance of them stealing some upgraded fusion tech from other species that have crash landed or there is some kind of trade deal with another planet for limited supplies, since they are now independent.
Just because fusion is available doesn't mean that the power output is actually massive.
It would need to be to power an entire planetary colony. After the initial fighting, the technology knowledge would have still remained.
And naturally this infrastructure will be well maintained as well.
They were already taking measures to ensure their people had food and shelter and a main fusion reactor.

'Yes, let's do all we can to safeguard what we need for our side...but oooh wait. We forgot to safeguard the fuel for the power generators. Silly me. I'll just go to the other side and ask for some of theirs. It'll be fine.'

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Re: Starfleet military vs. RL military

Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:01 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: But yet the cardassian "clothing" is not that flexible (ridged clearly, even in the earliest incarnation), except at the joints, just like your over-hyped version of modern day armor.
We know that real armour provides protection, the Cardie uniforms just look good.
As for burning through someone, just look more carefully at the examples given in the thread I pointed out to you. But I won't suprise me to see you handwave away that as well, too.
Oh, I'll look.



I love seeing you slowly fall apart here, Kendall. You fall back on the tired old SDN/Wongian/Poe tactic of throwing around insults instead of actually addressing the point.
Focus on what's being said not how it's said.
I also love how SF troops "have no experiance" dispite several years straight of fighting the Borg, Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion, and Breen!

But please, keep on with the handwaving. It's amusing.
So why did their performance not improve during that time?

Tried to with handwaving.
So you have no point in other words.
The links don't work for some reason, probably Trekcore not wanting people taking up too much of their bandwidth.

If you really want to see the image, just click on the screencaps section for DS9, then click on season 5, "Nor the Battle the Strong" is easily found
and the images are on page 15.
I am familiar with the "armour". It didn't stop a disrupter and was basically nothing but a thick rubber suit. It's likely that it was just a set of combat fatigues.

No, that is your own misunderstanding. I gave a setting and range of possible uses. If I wrote something that confused you, then I'am sorry, but at no point did I mean to suggest that.
Than explain what you actually meant.
As is typical, you missed the point, which was about an example of a renegade SF officer using a phaser pistol less advanced than TNG-era tech, and yet was able to kill hundreds, if not a thousand people with a phaser set on disintegrate mode (the highest possible on a TOS-era phaser).
Unarmoured people I might add, and they found bodies so it wasn't set on desintegrate.
And yet they often hit their targets, even from range, and using a phaser on disintgration mode doesn't limit their "ammo" in the way that you want it to.
I see, so the fact that the engagement range in ST is about fifty meters, and they frequently miss at that. Despite their much hyped training, translate to being able to hit a target at 300 metres. And the more power you use, the less you have. If you up the setting then it should use more energy.
If you want to add in mortar artillery, then SF gets the photon grenades from "Arena" [TOS]
Never seen again, even in the Dominion war.
, and "Legacy" [TNG],
Never seen again either.
as well as the various flash-bang grenades
Flash-bangs, you want them to use flash bangs in combat? And those were in ENt and never seen again.
and explosive devices they've been shown or mentioned using over the course of all five series. A single photon grenade from about 1,500 meters ought to settle the issue.
-Mike
What explosives?

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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:23 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:They had hammers?
Well, they were more like sledgehammer-like tomahaks, but the Ewoks used them to "hammer" at the Stormtroopers.
In fact, they were "nailing" them left and right... :)
Depending on what the spearheads are made of, it could be extremely sharp. Obsidion for example when flaked off creates very sharp edges. But really a apear point concentrates it's force in a small area, an ice skate blade has no "pointy" ends. It's essentially a long rail. You have to draw it across the target, creating a diiferent effect but less pressure than a spear thrust.
I agree the point of a spear made of Obsidian will offer great penetration, but of course, even a really good point still needs the correct force to make it penetrate.
The round shapes of Hockey equipment would make anything else then a direct, straight hit have an effect more akin to that of Ice-skates' blades, since it would then be the narrow edge of the spear-head that would scrape against the armor.
And yes, before anyone asks, well sharpened Ice-skates will cut as well as any knife (my friends' hands are proof of that, he works at a Hockey shop).

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:55 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Well, they were more like sledgehammer-like tomahaks, but the Ewoks used them to "hammer" at the Stormtroopers.
In fact, they were "nailing" them left and right... :)
Time to fire up ROTJ, I have absolutely no memory of this.
I agree the point of a spear made of Obsidian will offer great penetration, but of course, even a really good point still needs the correct force to make it penetrate.
They were lifting pretty large rocks over their heads and hitting troops with enough force to at least render them unconcious. Safe bet that they could apply enough force with a spear to penetrate hockey kit and ruin the meaty goodness inside.
The round shapes of Hockey equipment would make anything else then a direct, straight hit have an effect more akin to that of Ice-skates' blades, since it would then be the narrow edge of the spear-head that would scrape against the armor.
I'm sorry but hockey kit is just thin plastic on the outside. Yes it's rounded but a surface has to be fairly hard even if it is rounded to deflect something.
And yes, before anyone asks, well sharpened Ice-skates will cut as well as any knife (my friends' hands are proof of that, he works at a Hockey shop).
Yeah, the guy that sharpened the Squadron hockey teams skates hands were all fucked up.

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Post by Kazeite » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:57 pm

I'm still wondering what's so complicated about the concept of wide-beam stun shot (which, having such wide-beam can stun armored soldier even when it hits his torso) that Kendall doesn't understand it... :)

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:00 pm

Kazeite wrote:I'm still wondering what's so complicated about the concept of wide-beam stun shot (which, having such wide-beam can stun armored soldier even when it hits his torso) that Kendall doesn't understand it... :)
Look, I've explained why it wouldn't work. If your so obtuse that you can't comprehend the inverse square law and engagement at range then there's nothing I can do to help you.

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Post by Typhonis » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:01 am

What Cpl. Kendal is trying to say is this .

At 90meters a phaser beam will have an energy strength of X.

Set it to widebeam and at 90 meters it will either have a strength of much less than x, or uyou will have to use a greater amount of energy to enure it retains a strength of X because now instead of a small concentrated area ou have a much wider are to cover with the same beam.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:20 am

Typhonis wrote:What Cpl. Kendal is trying to say is this .

At 90meters a phaser beam will have an energy strength of X.

Set it to widebeam and at 90 meters it will either have a strength of much less than x, or uyou will have to use a greater amount of energy to enure it retains a strength of X because now instead of a small concentrated area ou have a much wider are to cover with the same beam.
Only if the angle remains the same, while the distance increases.

If the beam is set to be 10 meters wide, no matter the range, then the intensity won't drop much because of the distance.

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Post by 2046 » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:39 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If the beam is set to be 10 meters wide, no matter the range, then the intensity won't drop much because of the distance.
Auto-adjusting via rangefinder? While theoretically quite possible, I don't know that we've ever seen anything that would support such a setting.

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