Rogue One Tech Discussion

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Cocytus wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Which is clearly a clear contrast with clone armour. Right in ROTJ, downed clones weren't automatically killed, comrades were even calling for medical support.
In the CGI show, they even had an entire hospital station that healed wounded clonetroopers.
Now, back in ANH, we do see a stormtrooper checking on a downed comrade but stops when Vader arrives; the comrade in question showed no sign of life anyway.
That's a bit different than TFA where a neostormtrooper had enough lifebar left to actually smear some blood on the janitor's helmet.
I remember reading in some behind-the-scenes info that the Finalizer's bridge tower is buried in the superstructure because the prominent towers of previous Star Destroyers were too much of a target. I guess the First Order learned a thing or two from the Empire's failures.
Yes, they put their balls on the inside. :)

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:50 am

Khas wrote:Some of the technical things I thought were the most important in Rogue One were:

- That TIE Fighters could be blown up by hand-held weapons. Namely, with one shot (IIRC) at the right place.

- That starfighter firepower seems to be in the gigajoule range at most, going by the size of the explosions caused by the X-Wings firing on the base where Jyn's father was stationed.

- The existence of planetary shields, which means that Trek and Wars now canonically have similar shield area-covering capabilities, given that the Klingons had protected the planet Ty'Gokor with a shield, and Chakotay mentioned in "Year of Hell" that Voyager's allies could equip their homeworlds with temporal shielding. Though, SW's shield capabilities don't seem to be designed to deal with kinetic weapons all that well.

- Like 359, I could have sworn that I saw Scariff's planetary shield still up after the gate was taken out, judging by the glow surrounding the planet slightly above the atmosphere. And apparently, when the Death Star fired it's dialed-down blast at Scariff, the beam ignored the shield completely. It didn't overpower it and cause it to collapse, it just went right through unhindered. Which means that, even if Alderaan had a planetary shield, it would have done jack-diddly-shit to so much as give pause to the superlaser at even its lowest setting.

- The fact that Kyber crystals - which draw energy from the Force - were used in the Death Star's superlaser goes to show that this was anything but conventional technology. The fact that people were terrified of the idea of a planet killer in-universe shows that this level of destruction was something not to be taken lightly, or was anything close to normal.

- Ion torpedoes are a neat weapon that I didn't expect to see, though they make sense.
I have some of the same major highlights that Khas did. This was a film that showed the same basic sense of scale of a classic old-tech war film.

You have fighters that are selectively vulnerable to relatively powerful hand weapons, and can survive some damage from each other, which in turn are major threats to larger ships. Smaller ships' ability to threaten larger ships was pretty well emphasized as well, with a very neat note in the ramming / pushing sequence.

The ramming / pushing sequence has a lot of implications regarding thruster power, relative mass, etc. Basically they boil down to Star Destroyers being lumbering and large, but by no means super-dense compared to smaller ships, and low accelerations being the order of the day.

We see the unusual nature of the Death Star weapon very clearly in the first firing sequence. That is not a conventional blast, nor was it even like a conventional Hollywood version of what a big bomb ought to be like. IIRC, this works out quite similarly to the analysis of the Death Star novel.

I appreciated the way that kyber crystals / Whills called back to some of the very early Star Wars work.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:43 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: On a similar note, despite the Death Star firing the main weapon on a deliberate low-yield when used for the first time, the resulting explosion still causes everyone witnessing the results on the main control room on the station act very impressed by what they see, as if they have never even seen this level of destruction before. The explosion would easily be in the tens of gigatons range by the look of it. Yet this level of planetary destruction should be easy with ICS-level 200 gigaton heavy turbolasers.
-Mike
It interestingly gives the Death Star a more versatile purpose. It might have been initially conceived as a fortress buster before maximizing the technology's abilities.
From there, the weapon may have the caapcity to dispatch main warships in one shot if its aiming is good enough, although this seemed to a new thing when the DSII started to shoot at rebel capital ships.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:04 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: What was most interesting was how the shield was brought down. A disabled Imperial Star Destroyer is pushed into another still operative ISD by a Rebel ship, causing both ships to smash into the ring-shaped gate facility. Not only does this imply weak shielding (Rough calcs suggest no more than 6,555 terajoules of KE)...
Don't forget the importance of momentum though. It's not a very popular way of assessing the threat level of an asset, though.
It does not translate well in terms of energy... but it does in terms of force, then pressure if you manage to get a good idea of the area that's hit.
Trouble is, with ship against ship, both ships' superstructures give in, they're not monolithic slabs of steel.
The Empire didn't consider the hijacking of one of their prime warships, even less to be used as a projectile. This possibly supposes that other than ramming, the defenses were of significant quality.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:06 pm

Cocytus wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Which is clearly a clear contrast with clone armour. Right in ROTJ, downed clones weren't automatically killed, comrades were even calling for medical support.
In the CGI show, they even had an entire hospital station that healed wounded clonetroopers.
Now, back in ANH, we do see a stormtrooper checking on a downed comrade but stops when Vader arrives; the comrade in question showed no sign of life anyway.
That's a bit different than TFA where a neostormtrooper had enough lifebar left to actually smear some blood on the janitor's helmet.
I remember reading in some behind-the-scenes info that the Finalizer's bridge tower is buried in the superstructure because the prominent towers of previous Star Destroyers were too much of a target. I guess the First Order learned a thing or two from the Empire's failures.
So when Ren was watching stuff through the would-be-windows, were those screens or did he really move to some section of the ship with a nice vista?

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Khas wrote: - Like 359, I could have sworn that I saw Scariff's planetary shield still up after the gate was taken out, judging by the glow surrounding the planet slightly above the atmosphere. And apparently, when the Death Star fired it's dialed-down blast at Scariff, the beam ignored the shield completely. It didn't overpower it and cause it to collapse, it just went right through unhindered. Which means that, even if Alderaan had a planetary shield, it would have done jack-diddly-shit to so much as give pause to the superlaser at even its lowest setting.
That was in fact supported in the EU. If you remember the old DS/supahlazor threads, there was a definitive quotation on this question that alluded to the beam being built upon neutrinos I think. Anyway, the EU also had another quotation that black on white said that Alderaan had no shield so it would have been problematic to expect to analyze the lack of interaction between a beam and a shield that didn't exist, as it was said in another source of equal canonical level.

As for the firepower, it may be that the kyber effect was massively toned down or simply not activated. Upon the shot against Alderaan, the DET part of the beam could be rated in the teraton~low petaton region. It would not pulverize a planet into rocky and primordial pebbles. So the dialed down shot in the movie isn't exactly surprising, although its effects are to the DS crew, which is quite revealing.

Plus, as a reminder, the collapsing effect related to the superlaser was already supported in the novelization of ANH.

Also, the shield seems to be fixed at a high enough altitude to protect a sufficient portion of the planet's overall atmosphere, although a throughout long term protection of the ecosystem and the people would require a shield with an even greater radius, unless things could be done to get rid of the poisoning suggested by WILGA here: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 5961#p5961

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:03 pm

Ah, there. Although not relevant anymore, here's the famous quotation. In fact it contained the two facts I alluded to above: the lack of shield on Alderaan and the odd piercing ability of the SL.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 626#p10626
Dark Empire Sourcebook p.125 (about Planetary Shields, bold is mine) wrote: Instead of weakening a shield, the superlaser is able to pierce through it by using a coupled neutrino charge. This neutrino charge not only plunges through the shield, but it penetrates the mantle and lower levels of the planet. Great chunks of the crust can be vaporized, sometimes sending the surface exploding outward with enough force to shatter the world.
[...]
Alderaan had no shields of any kind, so it was utterly vaporized. A shielded planet that is overcome by a superlaser may "merely" have its entire surface burned off or split into several pieces. Note that planets don't have to be destroyed to be rendered uninhabitable.
And that book was released in June 1993! It's quite insane when you think of it. It contained a reference to neutrinos and settled the Alderaan shield topic very early, perhaps even before the heated times of IRC and google groups! And it was a popular sourcebook too.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Darth Spock » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:50 am

I'm very late to the party, but having recently finished the novel, and with the DVD is still a month or so out, I thought I'd add some details from there to fill in the gaps from the film. I haven't seen the film yet, so I'm not 100% sure about where they may conflict.


*Planetary shield.

Starting off with the shield over Scarif, in the novel at least, the shield is definitely still up after the ISD crash, only the gate itself was opened. A big difference though, is that in the book the wreckage evidently struck the shield inside the ring, rather than the station itself, essentially popping it like the film inside a bubble blowing ring. It's also stated that the shield would "regenerate swiftly enough." A key plot point was that the Mon Cal vessel had to park right over the open gate to receive the transmission. If the Profundity was vulnerably parked right over the wrecked gate in the film, I'd guess there was still remaining shield coverage that prevented them from maneuvering elsewhere.

Other points regarding the Scarif planetary shield indicated that it was fairly robust, considered a "hardened target," certainly enough to protect the planet from any conventional attack they might have expected from the rebels at that time, with the planet's commander stating that the gate itself was the only weak spot, and that "massive amounts of firepower" could penetrate it. The Rebel admiral also determined they wouldn't be able to crack it in a reasonable time with the ships they had, (why the ion torps wouldn't have worked is beyond me). Also, the shield itself was evidently considered a significant asset, the loss of which Tarkin specifically took note of, along with the Citadel itself, before firing on Scarif.


*Death Star firepower.

It is confirmed that the D.S. S.L. employs multiple kyber crystals. There were also a number of technical sidebars and *intercepted memos* that lay out a lot of technical details about the D.S., as well as a description of the beam's composition. Here's a portion starting on page 105:
From the focusing dish on the station’s outer shell, the beams of light and charged particles poured into a single vertex controlled and suspended by the kyber fields.
...
the last stage was triggered: From the center of the focusing dish came another particle beam, invisible to the human eye. It carved through the nexus and tunneled a path for the energy’s release, funneled the conflagration away from the battle station
The D.S. was also intended to be able to engage hostile fleets as well, on page 58:
The battle station is certainly not symbolic, meant only to demonstrate the Empire’s might in ceremonial planetary executions. The main weapon must be built to fire repeatedly within a short span, as it might during the course of a single fleet battle.
Later on page 179, a sidebar memo reveals Erso's manipulations to install the exhaust port vulnerability, it's indicated that even with the vent, some radiation leakage would cause health risks for low level personnel if the weapon was fired 3 times within an hour. That doesn't indicate a particularly high rate of fire, but isn't a hard ceiling either. It also gives a clue to the level of efficiency of the main reactor, though I should note they evidently possessed some kind of "particle funnel and recycler" technology that supposedly would have done the job better, but timetable overruns helped Erso nudge the bureaucracy into taking the quick and easy path, including the "shoot here to blow me up" hole.

As for the firepower, there are some specific details that could possibly shed light on the power/nature of the weapon, but many of the descriptions are muddled and inconsistent. Regardless, it almost certainly should put a major dent in the ICS numbers. While the low yield shot was considered "unspectacular at best" by Krennic, wanting to show off his toy, it was also clearly indicated on page 122 that the Jedha test demonstrated that "the Death Star might destroy a city or a rebel base unimpeded by planetary shields or defense grids." It's also pretty obvious this level of yield should 1-shot a cap ship à la ROTJ as well. Also, on page 238 Tarkin reflected that he had "half expected every nonessential system on the battle station to burn out after the test on Jedha." - and still wasn't entirely confident it would completely obliterate a planet.


*Stormtrooper armor.
Cocytus wrote: I am continually amazed at just how worthless Stormtrooper armor is.
....
And it all seems to be uniformly useless against absolutely everything. Blaster rifles, blaster pistols (I'd expect Han's is well above spec given his line of work, but even so) swung rocks and now firmly established, kinetic impacts from Chirrut and Jyn's staves. Am I overreacting here? It's just comically worthless at this point.
Yup, I don't see any way stormtrooper armor can be argued to be "good" here, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it comically worthless. The way I figure it, stormtrooper armor should fit under the "some protection is better than none" category. I imagine the bodysuit/plates/mask would better allow a trooper to continue operating under harsh battlefield conditions filled with hot flames, choking smoke, flying debris etc. The problem is Hollywood already grants that kind of resilience to everybody, so it only really grants mooks a bonus toward realism in shrugging off ill effects that the heroes can do naturally. Having said that, the novel made a few halfhearted attempts at implying the armors value... but admittedly ends up doing even more damage to it's usefulness.

Early on, Cassian uses a blaster with a silencer that diminished it's power enough that he was concerned it may not fully penetrate the armor. Of course it did work, flawlessly, so big whoop. Much later on Scarif, the initial rebel ambush indicates that the armor didn't even protect well against shrapnel, tinnitus or disorientation from nearby blasts. Of course, these were from demolition charges, not flash bangs, it could be argued that without the armor they'd have actually been dead, or permanently blind and deaf. Still, it's not rocking my socks off. Here's the relevant quote from page 250:
For the better part of five minutes, the rebels held the advantage. The stormtroopers who survived the initial detonations were stunned, deafened, blinded, injured by the blasts and thunder and shrapnel.
On the plus side, it's indicated that the helmets at least have better than simple tinted lenses, specifically including an automatically adjusting light filter, and possibly integrated IR sensors, though the latter could have been indicating the use of hand held scanners. From pages 108 and 169 respectively.


*Fighters.

On page 163, the ordinance that struck the landing pad on Eadu, ultimately killing Galen Erso was identified as a proton torpedo. I'll note now that arguments could be made that Blue Squadron was holding back, dialing down the firepower, as the novel does indicate on pages 158-159 that the fighters were informed of alliance operatives on the ground, but it was too late to call off the attack. Even so, it doesn't bode well for high end firepower figures. Then there's the fighters striking the landing pad, yet failing to disable Krennic's shuttle just sitting there? The whole attack was a fiasco from whatever angle it's looked at, from firepower to planning to execution.

One point about the TIE brought down by a hand weapon. In the novel at least, it wasn't destroyed outright, but was instead caused to crash, I don't know if that's a contradiction or not. Either way, the novel does specify that it was Chirrut's "light bow" that brought it down. If they're playing it as a class of weapon like Chewie's crossbow in TFA, that could indicate something more than the typical blaster rifle could accomplish. It also indicated that Andor was impressed by the weapon's performance. In the end I doubt it makes much difference though, seeing as how the Rebels cartoon already had an E-11 put a hole in a parked TIE's fuel tank once, and recently had a well placed pistol shot at point blank range force a shuttle down. Eh.


*Space combat.

The effective range of starfighters would appear to be significantly less than than 50,000 km. No surprise there, but it's the first time I recall ever encountering such specific figures for Star Wars. The scene is ambiguous enough that capital ship combat ranges could still go either way. I'm sure nothing remotely resembling this distance was seen in the film, but it might be useful at some point in the future. Here's the relevant quote from page 265:
"Withdraw to fifty thousand kilometers from the shield gate,” Raddus said. “Stay in the TIE fighters’ range but force them to stretch their line. If they don’t think to regroup, the point-defense gunners can handle the bulk of them."
The Imperial forces over Scarif (and the rebel's detection abilities) are detailed as follows:
The Profundity had detected— and its crew or its allies had visually confirmed— two Star Destroyers, at least nine distinct TIE starfighter squadrons, and innumerable midsized vessels ranging from shuttles to patrol cruisers, all situated between the rebels and Scarif. Other enemy craft, as yet undetected, could have been hidden behind planets and moons or running dark on auxiliary power.
It's implied that the TIE squadrons noted did not include those still docked in the shield gate.

There are a lot of little tidbits regarding the space battle in the text, overall it paints a picture of more complex engagements than just "shoot until the shields fail," but rather something of a jumbo sized dogfight with a lot of dancing around and jockeying for position. Essentially the weaker rebel fleet used superior numbers to keep "the Destroyers boxed in, unable to turn their full firepower on one target without exposing a flank to concentrated volleys." This scenario played out twice. Once when a hammerhead corvette somehow let itself get caught between the 2 ISDs and was forced to withdraw to the rear (this would later be the ship sacrificed in the ramming maneuver), and again when an ISD let itself get flanked on both sides by capital ships, leaving it's forward arc open for the Y-Wings to make their ion torpedo run. This description implies greater complications than simply having magic ion torpedoes to throw at a target, and possibly why they couldn't just use them against the shield gate.
All in all, it doesn't paint a very clear picture of their offensive or defensive systems, other than "it's complicated." But heck, even without gigaton turbolasers, the nature of Star wars space combat has been muddled and confusing all along, so I'd say it's really par for the course so far. Also, those ion torpedoes must have some other drawbacks, they seem way too overpowered based on the brief use here.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by 2046 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:48 pm

Skimmed the thread, still haven't watched the movie (or Beyond, for that matter) . . . oh, and here are the relevant battle scenes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfEQpcXKSE

1. Love that durasand.

2. Not sure if the shield is up or not when the soggy paper airplane hits the soggy donut and they all turn to mush.
a. Structural integrity? What's that? Only the hammerhead and the ISD side trench seemed to have it. The other ISD's superstructure seems to still be waiting on the Amazon delivery.
b. Given the dagger shape of the ISD the hammerhead's easy pushin' job was plausible inasmuch as turning the thing (not a lot of force required, compared to moving the whole bulk), but beyond that it looks like it pushed both ships down which is just nutty.
c. The ramming here does have better CGI than Nemesis, which is from 15 years ago . . . this is "Gravity" grade, from the looks of it, though Nemesis has the excuse of being so dark because it's outside a star system . . . but what's funny is how close the scenes are in content, even down to people being tossed around amidst a shower of objects that fly around while shooting sparks off of themselves.

I think movie rammings are really more like a strange party where folks bring and abuse cheap Chinese fireworks, greasy mops, and alcohol, causing them to fall and roll and slide about while hurled spark-slinging fountains and ground-spinners zip about the room.

3. Remember when fighters were supposed to be capable of thousands of g acceleration? Seems to me that X-Wing pilot died because he couldn't do even a fraction of that in order to get through the shield aperture before it closed.

4. I like how the tower pieces above the superlaser strike disappear completely after the superlaser separates them from the tower. If I were using this film, I'd focus on that.

Anyway, for me this whole movie's not relevant, but I figured I should peruse the battle video to get a sense of what others believe.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:26 pm

https://youtu.be/wfIOTZCbNqQ

Shield does appear up during the "prepare a boarding party" scene.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Sothis » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:53 am

The combat in this film was brutal. Not 'saving Private Ryan' level brutal, but far more so than any other SW film.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:16 am

Here's a better video of the battle: https://youtu.be/TcJixy4HWzs

Here's a link to a .webm of the ram: https://gfycat.com/EmotionalGlitteringAndalusianhorse

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Darth Spock » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:57 pm

2046 wrote: Here's a link to a .webm of the ram: https://gfycat.com/EmotionalGlitteringAndalusianhorse
An emotional, glittering Andalusian horse. Hehehehe. Gotta love those gyfcat names. Or in this case, it should have been: sparkley, lubricated bumper cars!

In the trailers I had seen, I didn't know the ramming event sheared the whole "office complex/conning tower" off. Nerfing structural integrity aside, that seems to strain credibility, I'd expect the bridge to be in constant danger of falling off under maximum acceleration in such a case. I heard in one of the clips the Imperial captain giving orders to reverse engines, which only makes it worse. I'm even tempted to assume somebody panicked and hit the forward accelerator instead. Without something to push against, the whole bulldozing thing strikes me as highly implausible, there just didn't appear to be enough forward inertia to facilitate that much damage, especially considering the angle the corvette was pushing from. Or am I just looking at it wrong?

As for the tower pieces disappearing after the SL strike, I don't like the whole POOCing thing myself, but its not a shocker, it's been lingering around kyber crystals since those unreleased CW episodes, and then in the episode of Rebels where they blow up a transport carrying one. It's a pretty small detail here, but taken all together they all mesh.
Also, while I was hoping it would just be a minor oversight in the book, I see that in the movie, Erso and Andor watch the SL detonation "sunrise" with their eyes and faces intact, and wait for the shock wave to hit. Yeah, there's definitely some weird effects tied to the SL.

Speaking of things I didn't want/expect to see, was Chirrut teabagging a stormtrooper? .... Yes, yes he did.... What is that, like an enticement for COD players to play SW Battlefront? That'll make a classy gif loop someday. Now I've seen everything.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by 2046 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:25 am

I guess it's all in the proverbial wrist . . . that is to say, it isn't inertia, but the moment of inertia. They maybe mess it up a bit but I think the idea was for the front end to get swung around and lop the top off the victim ISD, which would've made more sense. The hammerhead would've then ended up ripping away when it couldn't keep up with the rotation, kinda like the runner on the outside of the merry-go-round.

As it stands, not only does it make the TESB asteroid shearing off the tower look like crap, but it also seems odd from a physics standpoint because it seems the ISDs must be front-heavy. Maybe that makes sense from a maneuverability standpoint, but I doubt it matches up with TESB's maneuverings chasing the Falcon prior to the asteroid field.

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Re: Rogue One Tech Discussion

Post by Darth Spock » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:52 am

Yeah, it just looks freaky overall, and *feels* wrong. Nothing really to do about it, but in my head at least, I'm just going to keep pretending the still functioning ISD accidentally accelerated into the little corvette that could and it's improvised battering ram. It seems to me if they'd actually slammed it into reverse, the whole mess should have ended up going the same direction before they managed to completely plow through several hundred meters of structure.

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