Star Trek what if...

[Mike DiCenso]

Frankly, I would be all set to violate the Prime Directive and meddle with the workings of destiny for the greater good of the Star Wars galaxy.

The first step is to convince Kenobi to take steps to prevent Anakin's betrayal...

... the nice thing about trying to convince Force users of the truth is that they can usually tell when a non-Force users is lying to them, and they know that, and it's not going to be too hard for Captain "Jedi Master Spock" here to convince them that he's not trained in the ways of the force.

Actually, you still can have Anakin trained in the Force. You just can help correct quite a few problems, like immediately solving the mystery of who the Sith master Sidious really is; preventing the Clone Wars altogether, and preventing the kiddnapping and death of Anakin's mother at the hands of the Tuskin Raiders, among other things.

The only real issue I can possible see, however, is if there really is a "Will of the Force", which may or may not allow for such a signficant amount of interferance with the so-called "bringing balance to the Force" thing.
-Mike

[GStone]

A transporter 'accident' can solve that quickly.

[Mr. Oragahn]

TNG: Up The Long Ladder= Human colonists settle on a planet, but decide to use clones to keep them going because only 5 people survived the crash. They did have genetic degredation over the next couple centuries, but I'm not expecting to be there that long. The Mariposans tried to get genetic stuff from Pulaski and Riker to stave off their destruction, but those clones were killed.

This is not proof that the Federation possesses such a technology, or acquired it thereafter.

Also, there's using the transporter to make cloned material, like in TNG: Second Chances.

It happened. Now, does it say that they understood why, and that they could replicate this phenomenom?

There is also DS9: A Man Alone. Bashir found 'complex proteins', composed of DNA fragments on pieces of biosample containers. He "set up a bioregenerative field to accelerate the cellular development". He proceeded to "reconstruct the DNA sequence" and found Ibudan was making a clone of himself to kill and fake his own death, blaming Odo. In a few days of being in the tank, the clone was to become fully functional, like anyone else.

Though it is impressive, I understand two things.

First, Bashir is an enhanced human, right?
He's not your average UFP scientist. What he knows or understands does not automatically equal with Federation knowledge. We can only consider that most researches Bashir would do would be transmitted, but again, this has to be proved.

Secondly, Bashir only accelerated the work from another one. He didn't create the sample himself.

Besides, even if he could create a clone, it doesn't mean this one would have survived. It doesn't show that Bashir, nor the Federation, knew if that clone could survive on its own, or how long they could keep him alive.
We don't know if the cloned cells would have not degenerated.
We don't even know if Bashir could actually complete the clone's growth.
Growing a human, for example, is not a simple affair.

Finally, there is no proof, in that info you gave, that any form of knowledge could be passed on to this clone by using Federation technology.

The knowlede of eventual genetic degredation with some methods (the mariposans did presumably use Fed cloning tech, but it's unknown if their cloning tech has been perfected- DS9: A Man Alone might be evidence of them perfecting it, but it's kinda sketchy how it'd work in the long run with the same genetic material); it didn't stop the Federation's enemies (NEM: Shinzon, who was also specifically given 'temporal DNA', which is what caused his eventual degredation). Riker said the mariposans were thieves for taking their DNA and Pulaski didn't object to Riker killing the clones before they were fully grown.

So we don't know if the Federation has a chart against cloning of individuals, and we don't know if they'd kill clones if they found any.

The canon never said.

A pity. Ultimately, this would not relate to Federation tech anyway.

[GStone]

This is not proof that the Federation possesses such a technology, or acquired it thereafter.

They were Federation citizens. Where do you think they got the tech from anyway?

It happened. Now, does it say that they understood why, and that they could replicate this phenomenom?

Yes, but they don't understand why the transporter controller person at the time did it. A second annular confinement beam was used to try to boost the signal or whatever they said and the second beam was redirected to the planet surace because of the thing in the atmo. So, do it again.

Though it is impressive, I understand two things.

First, Bashir is an enhanced human, right?
He's not your average UFP scientist. What he knows or understands does not automatically equal with Federation knowledge. We can only consider that most researches Bashir would do would be transmitted, but again, this has to be proved.

He is, but he gave the order to someone else to set up the field. He didn't make up the device himself on the spot.

Secondly, Bashir only accelerated the work from another one. He didn't create the sample himself.

It was DNA found on piece of a biosample container. There was no source feeding the proteins. It was theorized that Ibudan was trying to get rid of the stuff and it was found in his quarters as trace evidence. The dialogue is as follows:

BASHIR
The only curious thing I found were
seofurane fragments near the matter
reclamation unit... it appears he
was trying to get rid of them...

ODO
Have any idea what they're from?

BASHIR
I know exactly what they're from...
a biological sample container. I
use containers like them all the
time.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This is not proof that the Federation possesses such a technology, or acquired it thereafter.

They were Federation citizens. Where do you think they got the tech from anyway?

Bought to an alien race?
Maybe one of the survivors actually worked in cloning?

Yes, but they don't understand why the transporter controller person at the time did it.

Did what exactly?

A second annular confinement beam was used to try to boost the signal or whatever they said and the second beam was redirected to the planet surace because of the thing in the atmo. So, do it again.

This is not clear.

It was DNA found on piece of a biosample container. There was no source feeding the proteins. It was theorized that Ibudan was trying to get rid of the stuff and it was found in his quarters as trace evidence. The dialogue is as follows:

BASHIR
The only curious thing I found were
seofurane fragments near the matter
reclamation unit... it appears he
was trying to get rid of them...

ODO
Have any idea what they're from?

BASHIR
I know exactly what they're from...
a biological sample container. I
use containers like them all the
time.

Yes, so this clearly fails to show that Bashir could have created such a sample, completed the cloning process, and made sure that the clone would be genetically stable.

So basically, the only solution you have to ascertain that the Federation can clone people is that transporter event that requires a better description.

[GStone]

Bought to an alien race?
Maybe one of the survivors actually worked in cloning?

The implication from the fact they had a 'crash' says that they used the tech they had with them. There is nothing to imply that they got the tech from somewhere or someone else. Also, Pulaski said that the cells lining the stomach are the best to clone. Another implcation that they have knowledge of cloning. Each piece taken by itself might not mean much, but when taken all together, you don't need a line of dialogue that says 'we know how to clone someone'.

A second annular confinement beam was used to try to boost the signal or whatever they said and the second beam was redirected to the planet surace because of the thing in the atmo. So, do it again.

This is not clear.

They were having trouble with a successful transport of Riker from the surface and the transporter controller used a second ACB to help. But, Geordie said he didn't understand why it was done at all. So, during the situation, one of the ACBs is transported back to the ship, but the other got reflected back to the surface, where it made another Riker.

So, bring in a second ACB, but send the second beam to another transporter pad or somewhere else in the room with the object to be duplicated.

Let's look at the specific dialogue.

GEORDI
... apparently there was a massive
energy surge in the distortion
field around the planet just at
the moment you tried to beam out.
The Transporter Chief tried to
compensate by initiating a second
containment beam.

DATA
An interesting approach. He must
have been planning to reintegrate
the two patterns in the transport
buffer.

GEORDI
Turns out he didn't have to.
Commander Riker's pattern
maintained its integrity with just
the one containment beam -- he
made it back to the ship just
fine.

BEVERLY
What happened to the second beam?

GEORDI
The Transporter Chief shut it
down, but somehow... it was
reflected back to the surface.

PICARD
And another Wil Riker materialized
there.

RIKER
How could the second pattern have
maintained its integrity?

GEORDI
The containment beam must have had
the exact same phase differential
as the distortion field.

RIKER
Which one of us is... real?

GEORDI
Both. You were both re-materialized
from a complete
pattern.

BEVERLY
Up to that moment, you were the
same person.

PICARD
But over the last eight years, you
and...Lieutenant Riker have lived
very different lives. You're
different people now.
For us, it's a little like meeting
a close friend's twin. You can't
help feeling that you know them...
but of course you don't.

~~~~~~~~~~~


So, the thing was not about whether the ACB could duplicate something, but that it maintained integrity without the transporter involved in the second beam's materialzation. This does say that with a second transporter, you could create the clone. And, since we have seen that multiple things can be transported at once, they would each need their own ACB, so a standard transporter would be able to handle both the original and cloned object.

There is also the fact that the difference between a replicator and transporter is scanning resolution and a genitronic replicator that was used to make a whole new spine for Worf.

Yes, so this clearly fails to show that Bashir could have created such a sample, completed the cloning process, and made sure that the clone would be genetically stable.

The implication is clear. He found the complex proteins on bits of container pieces near a Cardassian trash can, not in some equipment designed to maintain healthy bio stuff. He does a standard scan and finds there's DNA and tells someone to set up a regenerative field. Later, we see that the clone is laying back in a large tank and it's pretty much human size.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/lite ... 29/403.txt

ODO
What happens to this one?

BASHIR
In about two days, he becomes a living,
breathing member of Bajoran society.


You can see a pic of the scene here:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:B ... ma-dsn.jpg

So basically, the only solution you have to ascertain that the Federation can clone people is that transporter event that requires a better description.

He's got the DNA, sets up a bioregenerative field that someone else knows about. Later, we see the clone in the tank. This alone shows they can clone someone, if they have their DNA. They have the equipment and the knowledge.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The implication from the fact they had a 'crash' says that they used the tech they had with them. There is nothing to imply that they got the tech from somewhere or someone else. Also, Pulaski said that the cells lining the stomach are the best to clone. Another implcation that they have knowledge of cloning. Each piece taken by itself might not mean much, but when taken all together, you don't need a line of dialogue that says 'we know how to clone someone'.

Pulaski was one of the survivors, right?

What you are demonstrating is that they knew to clone bodies. Not the Federation. The fact that they were members of the Federation before the crash doesn't prove that the Federation possessed the knowledge the survivors did.
It doesn't even preclude the idea that the survivors could have acquired the tech and knowledge from another living or extinct race.

Basically, there is no tangible way to establish a link between the knowledge displayed by the survivors, and the shared scientific knowledge of the Federation.

They were having trouble with a successful transport of Riker from the surface and the transporter controller used a second ACB to help. But, Geordie said he didn't understand why it was done at all. So, during the situation, one of the ACBs is transported back to the ship, but the other got reflected back to the surface, where it made another Riker.

So, bring in a second ACB, but send the second beam to another transporter pad or somewhere else in the room with the object to be duplicated.

Let's look at the specific dialogue.

GEORDI
... apparently there was a massive
energy surge in the distortion
field around the planet just at
the moment you tried to beam out.
The Transporter Chief tried to
compensate by initiating a second
containment beam.

DATA
An interesting approach. He must
have been planning to reintegrate
the two patterns in the transport
buffer.

GEORDI
Turns out he didn't have to.
Commander Riker's pattern
maintained its integrity with just
the one containment beam -- he
made it back to the ship just
fine.

BEVERLY
What happened to the second beam?

GEORDI
The Transporter Chief shut it
down, but somehow... it was
reflected back to the surface.

PICARD
And another Wil Riker materialized
there.

RIKER
How could the second pattern have
maintained its integrity?

GEORDI
The containment beam must have had
the exact same phase differential
as the distortion field.

RIKER
Which one of us is... real?

GEORDI
Both. You were both re-materialized
from a complete
pattern.

BEVERLY
Up to that moment, you were the
same person.

PICARD
But over the last eight years, you
and...Lieutenant Riker have lived
very different lives. You're
different people now.
For us, it's a little like meeting
a close friend's twin. You can't
help feeling that you know them...
but of course you don't.

~~~~~~~~~~~


So, the thing was not about whether the ACB could duplicate something, but that it maintained integrity without the transporter involved in the second beam's materialzation. This does say that with a second transporter, you could create the clone. And, since we have seen that multiple things can be transported at once, they would each need their own ACB, so a standard transporter would be able to handle both the original and cloned object.

There is also the fact that the difference between a replicator and transporter is scanning resolution and a genitronic replicator that was used to make a whole new spine for Worf.

That's better.

In theory, it seems to say that if you use two beams to scan and transport someone, unless you manage to merge both beams, you're going to make a perfect copy.

Though there's still that pseudo energy/distorsion field which played a role in that. The event occured as a massive surge of energy happened as well.
Thus far, it may be necessary to emulate that situation, by recreating such a field, with the necessary energy pulse.

Regarding Picard's rationalization, he seems fairly open minded about this situation. It doesn't mean that he'd have zero issues if cloning was expressively used, especially for military purposes though.

The implication is clear. He found the complex proteins on bits of container pieces near a Cardassian trash can, not in some equipment designed to maintain healthy bio stuff. He does a standard scan and finds there's DNA and tells someone to set up a regenerative field. Later, we see that the clone is laying back in a large tank and it's pretty much human size.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/lite ... 29/403.txt

ODO
What happens to this one?

BASHIR
In about two days, he becomes a living,
breathing member of Bajoran society.


You can see a pic of the scene here:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:B ... ma-dsn.jpg

Eek.

Ok. So if we take Bashir's words and confidence literally, it seems that this clone was going to be perfectly functional, and survive like a normal individual.
Thanks for the transcript. I'll be able to verify if the other DS9 members there were shocked or not about that.

He's got the DNA, sets up a bioregenerative field that someone else knows about. Later, we see the clone in the tank. This alone shows they can clone someone, if they have their DNA. They have the equipment and the knowledge.

Is it a proof that he can pick any DNA and literally regrow an individual from that sample?

If yes, you've got your cloning.

[GStone]

Pulaski was one of the survivors, right?

Pulaski was the doc that replaced Crusher for a year on the E-D.

What you are demonstrating is that they knew to clone bodies. Not the Federation. The fact that they were members of the Federation before the crash doesn't prove that the Federation possessed the knowledge the survivors did.

You are so trying to be difficult.

From the same site I gave the transcrip bit from:

Up the long ladder:

PICARD
It's an old style Terran distress
beacon. It kicked in last month,
and was detected by the starbase.

RIKER
What's its origin point?

PICARD
The Ficus quadrant

RIKER
(thinks for a moment)
Captain, there are no records of
an Earth colony in that area.

~~~~~~~~

COMPUTER VOICE
Signal analysis complete.
Distress beacon used by the
European Hegemony.

RIKER
The European Hegemony?

PICARD
A loose alliance that formed in
the early twenty-second century. It was
the first step toward a world
government. You should read more
history, Number One. Computer,
bracket exact dates when this
beacon was in general use.

COMPUTER VOICE
Old Earth calendar, 2123 until
2190.

RIKER
No extraterrestrial source has
ever used this beacon?

COMPUTER VOICE
Negative.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RIKER
How could a spaceship leave Earth
without some kind of a record?

DATA
Perhaps it was deliberate. They
may have wished to escape
detection.

RIKER
You're suggesting they were
fugitives?

DATA
During the Eugenics Wars a group
of genetically superior humans
ruled the world. After their
defeat some did escape.

~~~~~~~~~~~


PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's log, supplemental. A
review of stellar charts has
revealed a Class M planet, NB2323
only half a light year from the
Bringloid system. I am gambling
it was the destination of the
second colony.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~


GRANGER
Not quite a descendant.
(forces a laugh)
We feared that Earth had suffered
a catastrophe when no one came
to check on us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


GRANGER
Captain, we need your help.
Three hundred years ago during
our landing on Mariposa, the skin
of the ship was breached. Only
five colonists survived. The
progenitors weren't willing to
just give up and die, and they
were scientists --

PICARD
So they used that expertise and
turned to cloning.

GRANGER
Yes. They had no other option.
Two women and three men were an
insufficient gene pool from which
to build a society.

PULASKI
How did you suppress the natural
sexual drive? Drugs? Punitive
laws?

GRANGER
In the beginning we used a little
of both. Now three hundred years
later the entire concept of
sexual reproduction is a little
repugnant to us.

PICARD
A culture with no children.

GRANGER
It's economically more viable to
accelerate clone growth. Some
basic learning can be chemically
imprinted on the developing clone,
the rest we do after emergence.

PULASKI
How did you overcome the problem
of replicative fading?

GRANGER
We didn't.

PULASKI
You have got a problem.

RIKER
Wait. I don't understand.
Replecative fading?

PULASKI
Each time you clone you're making
a copy of a copy. Subtle errors
creep into the chromosomes, and
eventually you end up with a
non-viable clone.

GRANGER
Yes. We're developing a sort
of mental hardening of the
arteries. It's increasingly
difficult to respond to new
situations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, they're scientists that came out of the eugenics war. You can't just suddenly know how to clone, just like you can't suddenly know how to build a car, if you're a 'scientist'.

Basically, there is no tangible way to establish a link between the knowledge displayed by the survivors, and the shared scientific knowledge of the Federation.

Only when you look at each individual piece of evidence in a vacuum, and even then you come across evidence that's tangible. In Up The Long Ladder, Pulaski asks how they overcame replicative fading before finding out they didn't. If they don't know shit about cloning or couldn't do it, how is it that she could think to bring it up, huh? It's a very specific problem with repeated cloning, indicating that it is still happening today.

Let's go further with this. There are now eugenics laws. Doctors (at least some) are trained in recognizing genetic resequencing. And where do they get this training from? The Federation. But, how could they know? This would mean that procedures from the eugenics war/time period on earth are still left in medical texts. They can't recognize genetic manipulations without knowing how its done or what it looks like. They also can't know about specific problems, if they don't know they can exist. Just assuming it's true because of knowing people get old and die or bringing in pop culture or copiers doesn't mean that is really a problem when one's actual medical knowledge wouldn't say one way or the other because they don't have the know how to know that particular type of problem might exist.

Can people just guess at what an error message means that pops up on your computer when all it says is a string of numbers for the name when all you have is pop culture, as your knowledge base? No, you'd have to have computer training to understand what it means. You sure as hell couldn't say how to fix it either when all you know about computers is what's in pop culture.

Add to that that they wouldn't have known that this particular problem was a true problem at any point in their history, if they didn't know what their medical knowledge was at the beginning of their trip.

Pulaski asked how they overcame replicative fading, giving the context that they (the Mariposan colony and the Federation/Earth group) followed 2 paths of medical knowledge aquiring, but both had the same history up to a point.

In theory, it seems to say that if you use two beams to scan and transport someone, unless you manage to merge both beams, you're going to make a perfect copy.

Or you disrupt the second ACB.

Though there's still that pseudo energy/distorsion field which played a role in that. The event occured as a massive surge of energy happened as well.

The dialogue so very clearly says the massive surge was how the second ACB maintained integrity. This is why I said that a second transporter or even the first one could handle it.

Thus far, it may be necessary to emulate that situation, by recreating such a field, with the necessary energy pulse.

Only when you overthink the requirements.

Is it a proof that he can pick any DNA and literally regrow an individual from that sample?

If yes, you've got your cloning.

What the fuck did you think it was? Knitting a sweater? He found DNA, set up a field specifically called a 'bioregenerative field' and a clone appears in a tank. The first clone was in the morgue, already dead. The real Ibudan was hiding in a mask. The guy in the tank was referred to as a clone.

Therefore, the Federation can clone...unless you want to suggest that some alien came in with tech and made the clone instead.

[Jedi Master Spock]

What the fuck did you think it was? Knitting a sweater?

That's not a particularly civil thing to say.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You are so trying to be difficult.

I am not. If we were relying on that sample only, we could not prove that the Federation, at that time, was aware of how to proceed with cloning.
It would only show that scientists from the European Hegemony would.

Okay, they're scientists that came out of the eugenics war. You can't just suddenly know how to clone, just like you can't suddenly know how to build a car, if you're a 'scientist'.

Indeed, but you have not established the link between the EH and the Federation.

Basically, there is no tangible way to establish a link between the knowledge displayed by the survivors, and the shared scientific knowledge of the Federation.

Only when you look at each individual piece of evidence in a vacuum, and even then you come across evidence that's tangible. In Up The Long Ladder, Pulaski asks how they overcame replicative fading before finding out they didn't. If they don't know shit about cloning or couldn't do it, how is it that she could think to bring it up, huh? It's a very specific problem with repeated cloning, indicating that it is still happening today.

You can very well be aware by the limits and abilities of certain technologies, without being able to replicate them. See greek fire, or even the Saturn V rockets.

Let's go further with this. There are now eugenics laws. Doctors (at least some) are trained in recognizing genetic resequencing. And where do they get this training from? The Federation. But, how could they know? This would mean that procedures from the eugenics war/time period on earth are still left in medical texts. They can't recognize genetic manipulations without knowing how its done or what it looks like.

Genetic resequencing doesn't appear to be cloning, does it?

They also can't know about specific problems, if they don't know they can exist.

Correct, but see above.

Pulaski asked how they overcame replicative fading, giving the context that they (the Mariposan colony and the Federation/Earth group) followed 2 paths of medical knowledge aquiring, but both had the same history up to a point.

The only thing this shows is that Pulaski was not really surprised that the Mariposan achieved cloning.

That would be the most solid aspect of the argument that would support the idea that the Federation still knew how to proceed with cloning then.

The dialogue so very clearly says the massive surge was how the second ACB maintained integrity. This is why I said that a second transporter or even the first one could handle it.

That works for me. You may need to start working on energy and material requirements now.

What the fuck did you think it was? Knitting a sweater? He found DNA, set up a field specifically called a 'bioregenerative field' and a clone appears in a tank. The first clone was in the morgue, already dead. The real Ibudan was hiding in a mask. The guy in the tank was referred to as a clone.

Therefore, the Federation can clone...unless you want to suggest that some alien came in with tech and made the clone instead.

No. That said, why did you vent so fast? I wasn't even trying to pigeonhole you, but just trying to be sure that you had fully adressed the problem.

[GStone]

I am not. If we were relying on that sample only,

Which is not what we should be doing. We don't have just one example in all the canon. You aren't just gonna choose the lowest speed figure for warp drive and say that's the limit.

we could not prove that the Federation, at that time, was aware of how to proceed with cloning.
It would only show that scientists from the European Hegemony would.

You're acting as if the knowledge just somehow 'missed' getting collected when we know from TOS and DS9 that they still have knowledge of what's 'special' about the augments and being able to determine with anyone who has had genetic surgery done. This is why you don't look at just one tiny piece of the canon in a vacuum. You look at all of them combined to get an accurate picture.

Indeed, but you have not established the link between the EH and the Federation.

See above. Eugenics war genetic information survived because we know from TOS and DS9 that not only do they have a record of what happened in history, but they can still recognize when one goes to get a change in the modern era.

You can very well be aware by the limits and abilities of certain technologies, without being able to replicate them. See greek fire, or even the Saturn V rockets.

Except, the rest of the evidence shows they know what's going on with the process.

Genetic resequencing doesn't appear to be cloning, does it?

Are you unable to get that I am establishing a context?

The only thing this shows is that Pulaski was not really surprised that the Mariposan achieved cloning.

Only with this instance looked at in a vacuum. Without the others, you've stripped the context.

That would be the most solid aspect of the argument that would support the idea that the Federation still knew how to proceed with cloning then.

And they couldn't still know how to proceed with cloning, if they didn't already know how to do it.

That works for me. You may need to start working on energy and material requirements now.

That's impossible. No firm figures are given ever.

No.

Good. Otherwise, this was gonna get so far out there, I don't think I'd be able to respond anymore.

That said, why did you vent so fast? I wasn't even trying to pigeonhole you, but just trying to be sure that you had fully adressed the problem.

I had addressed it. You wanted to say we should only be looking at this and this by themselves, but I kept saying that you needed to look at all of them together to get the much broader context to place each piece of evidence to get a more cohesive whole.

The eugenics lawas in the modern era, the treatment of 'mutants', the fact Bashir's had to go outside the Federation to geth his resequencing done, the bad reception Soong Sr had when he wanted to rescue his 'children', how some of the augments felt the others reacted to them, the holdover of the medical knowledge that came from the eugenics war.

This gives the context that eugenics knowledge and eugenics science was common amongst scientists enough that 5 people that crash landed on a planet were able to use cloning devices that were either not damaged or had fixable damage.

This is why understanding the broader context is important, but you've been dismissive of it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You're acting as if the knowledge just somehow 'missed' getting collected when we know from TOS and DS9 that they still have knowledge of what's 'special' about the augments and being able to determine with anyone who has had genetic surgery done. This is why you don't look at just one tiny piece of the canon in a vacuum. You look at all of them combined to get an accurate picture.

It does not undermine the fact that if an argument must rely on "context" and other elements, it is particularily weak.

If on its own, it cannot provide a strong form of evidence, it has 50% chances to not do better in a broader context.

I don't agree with people who always refer to other samples to augment the value on another one. As a whole, you may have a "net" of self supporting arguments, but it's still very weak. You still need a very strong proof, and those ones come from the beam incident and Bashir's stuff.

This is why understanding the broader context is important, but you've been dismissive of it.

It may be easy for a Trekkie to get a pretty clear picture of the context, but from my point of view, it's an extremely blurry and messy painting I have to cope with.

[GStone]

It does not undermine the fact that if an argument must rely on "context" and other elements, it is particularily weak.

If on its own, it cannot provide a strong form of evidence, it has 50% chances to not do better in a broader context.

It's no different than any other part of any section of the canon that shows limited information. Otherwise, we say it's inconsistent storytelling. It's the same with warp speeds and the warp scale. It's never been stated on screen, but when you look at all the evidence, warp speeds have gotten faster and their representation on the warp scale changes throughout the centuries.

The flip side would be that the Federation lost the ability to travel at the speeds it went during TOS because warp 10 is said to be infinite in the modern era and we know TOS ships could go in the warp teens.

You know, you weren't objecting too much when I was using this same method for trying to figure out what Stargate hyperspace was. I used multiple pieces of evidence from many episodes to try to make sense of it.

I don't agree with people who always refer to other samples to augment the value on another one. As a whole, you may have a "net" of self supporting arguments, but it's still very weak. You still need a very strong proof, and those ones come from the beam incident and Bashir's stuff.

And the societal evidence of certain laws, the actions of individuals for particular circumstances, a group of peoples' acts towards the public and public reaction to that group of people over the centuries, the government's stance on the issues in general.

It may be easy for a Trekkie to get a pretty clear picture of the context, but from my point of view, it's an extremely blurry and messy painting I have to cope with.

It wouldn't matter if one was a trekkie or not. What matters is taking the time to look at how everything goes together. If one piece of the canon speaks of another in some way, it shouldn't be ignored.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's no different than any other part of any section of the canon that shows limited information. Otherwise, we say it's inconsistent storytelling. It's the same with warp speeds and the warp scale. It's never been stated on screen, but when you look at all the evidence, warp speeds have gotten faster and their representation on the warp scale changes throughout the centuries.

The flip side would be that the Federation lost the ability to travel at the speeds it went during TOS because warp 10 is said to be infinite in the modern era and we know TOS ships could go in the warp teens.

You know, you weren't objecting too much when I was using this same method for trying to figure out what Stargate hyperspace was. I used multiple pieces of evidence from many episodes to try to make sense of it.

The point was that a segment of evidence may not be evidence at all.
You can put it into your bag of evidence, but it doesn't necessarily increase the value of the segment you provided.

And the societal evidence of certain laws, the actions of individuals for particular circumstances, a group of peoples' acts towards the public and public reaction to that group of people over the centuries, the government's stance on the issues in general.

Ok, on that one, I was wrong. As I said, I don't have the same background as you, so all what you cite is pretty much new.
Actually, just how much have you cited to evidence laws?

It wouldn't matter if one was a trekkie or not. What matters is taking the time to look at how everything goes together. If one piece of the canon speaks of another in some way, it shouldn't be ignored.

Oh hell yes it would matter. Notice that you mentionned the laws until late.
A non trekkie is not supposed to know anything about those laws.

[GStone]

The point was that a segment of evidence may not be evidence at all.
You can put it into your bag of evidence, but it doesn't necessarily increase the value of the segment you provided.

It does because the other pieces give a better understanding of the Mariposan's backstory.

Ok, on that one, I was wrong. As I said, I don't have the same background as you, so all what you cite is pretty much new.
Actually, just how much have you cited to evidence laws?

In DS9, Bashir's parent's had to go outside the Federation to have his resequencing done. Mutants can't join Starfleet or have other similar jobs because of the potential of creating another Khan. The children that Soong Sr. stole were from a security facility, I believe, when they were in embryo form. Bashir stayed in Starfleet because his father made a deal with an admiral that he would go to prison for a few years. Also, Bashir's doctors knew what they were doing. Those others kept at the insitute had botched procedures, so they were made 'loopy', but they still had enough smarts to correct what was wrong with one of them, so she could be like Bashir and actually communicate with the outside world, while being super smart.

Oh hell yes it would matter. Notice that you mentionned the laws until late.
A non trekkie is not supposed to know anything about those laws.

But, I thought you had seen DS9. There were a few eps they used to focus on the mutants and the laws regarding them. And this is not meant as a snipe at you, but Memory Alpha has tons of Trek info for anyone that needs Trek know how.