Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

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sonofccn
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Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by sonofccn » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:43 pm

Just something that, off and on, has been peculating in the back of my mind. Namely why the Torpedo boat concept never seemed to take hold in Cardassian design philosophy or, to a lesser extent, any one else's.

As can be observed ship mounted Photon Torpedoes are powerful, self-contained armaments far exceeding beam weaponry, at least in brute, total energy. Indeed examples like the "Nth Degree" {TNG-04} suggests even a Galaxy class starship is twitchy about firing such weapons too close off the bow as it were.

The Cardassians in turn are a militaristic, expansion oriented society who frequently found themselves outclassed on a per unit basis against more powerful foes whether it was in the Federation-Cardassian conflict or fighting territorial Wars with the Klingons. Foes whose's industries and ship production easily rivaled if not exceeded Cardassian's own and who were not nearly so resource hungry.

In such an environment the Cardassian workhorse, the Galor cruiser, is inadequate. Even granting the advantage of weaponry range suggested by "The Wounded" {TNG-04} the warship can't be expected to survive anything resembling a straight up exchange of fire against a Galaxy, Nebula or hell even a War-oriented Miranda-class. A Galor is just as vulnerable if not more so to a salvo of photon torpedoes exploding across its bow as anyone it would fight and getting up close and trying to make it a beam-weapon contest is equally unlikely to go to their advantage except against the weakest of starships.

And the fact remains the Federation and Klingon Empire can likely more afford the destruction of the odd Excelsior class, Bird-Of-Prey, Nebula or aging D-7 cruiser then Cardassia could the loss of one of its Galor cruisers.

My question is, why attempt to fight your enemies on such terms? Imagine instead of an expensive Galor cruiser something like a Hideki-patrol ship but equipped to launch the equivalent of six type V photon torpedoes in one do or die salvo. Such a barrage would threaten even a mighty Galaxy class and cripple or destroy lesser vessels. And all at the risk to a patrol ship which has little need for shields or advanced systems beyond targeting sensors and a decent warp drive.

Obviously you'd still need Galors and and Keldon class cruisers and the need for stand up slugging matches would never go away completely but a disposable, hard hitting unit would allow you to soften up and destroy enemy formations before you have to commit your expensive warships to the battle. Altering the dynamic and flow of the myriad conflicts Cardassia found itself in from the 2360's-2370's.

Suddenly the casualty-adverse Federation would either have to accept rising death figures and ships destroyed, which would likely precipitate a greater call for withdrawal from an unimportant conflict on the edges of the Federation borders, or focus on sending ever larger, more powerful vessels to combat gloried shuttles with rockets strapped on.

The Klingons in turn would have to evaluate their thirst for battle in a War that gives them fewer glorious battles at ever greater cost. Die surrounded by the proverbial mountain of your enemies and they write a song about you. Die nameless as part of a torpedo volley by a podunk patrol ship that immediately turned and scrammed out of the system, not so much.

And, unlike the Federation's starfleet which is devoted to peaceful exploration or the Klingon Navy which would likely turn their noses up at such cowardly tactics, the Cardassian Navy's sole purpose is to protect and promote the expansion of their Empire by any means. Making the ruthless Cardassians ideal for this type of warfare without any morality or "honor" to interfere with whatever is the most brutally efficient solution at hand.

At least that is my thoughts. The dynamics of warfare in the 24th century makes torpedoes really good anti-cap weapons so why not build a ship to exploit this? But maybe I'm missing something. So I figured I'd throw it out there and see what the professionals here made of my ramblings.

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:39 pm

The suggestion is most elegant. The Dominion used smaller ships to great effect. Even the Federation was seen relying on squadrons of smaller assault crafts.
Why wouldn't the Cardassians rely on smaller ships filled up to the chin with torps?
The question begs another one: why aren't the big ships equally filled with such vast quantities of torps as to alpha-blast their enemies in the opening volleys?
Contrary to Federation ships, they wouldn't have to waste ship room to civilian purposes.

Let's supposse that some people within the weapon industry on Cardassia did suggest something like that. Or perhaps such an idea even got suggested by the closest thing they may have had to a geek. :)
The paradigm changers would be facing the entrenched positions of the navy's old hats still smoking the prestige of their glorious battleships. It could be as simple as the "experienced" generals not letting it go. It could also be related to massive investments in the update of their cruisers and other obscure contracts preventing Cardassia from rapidly changing to something more efficient.

The problem with torpedoes is that the launching ship must get close enough to the target otherwise the torps may be intercepted.
Small ships wouldn't carry enough propulsion power, shields and armour to get close enough.

It may not be fun to lose battles and die aboard cruisers, but it's likely more prestigious than to die amongst a pack of suicidal hornets. The cruiser is big and gives the illusion that you may actually survive an encounter, that you've got enough punch as to survive several hits. Now, try selling the idea to Cardassian pilots that they'd have to embark on craptastic miniships meant to rush against an enemy cruiser when over half of your squadron would die before having a chance to fire one single torpedo.

You better ask why battles in Trek don't look like missile spam porn ala Macross.

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by sonofccn » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:48 pm

Thanks, I was worried it all was going to sound stupid.

As to your question regarding "big ships" it's intriguing but, to an extent at least, I would argue that are capable to "alpha-blast" their enemies. Both a Sovereign class and a Galaxy can shoot off a clutch of 3-5 torpedoes while a 23rd century Constitution calls can, IIRC, fire off a torpedo at slightly over one per second. An Excelsior or D-7 cruiser could likely match at least the latter's fire.

Obviously its somewhat subjective but I would argue that is broadly in the range to kill midsized ships, Mirandas or Klingon Bird-Of-Preys, cripple or mission kill somewhat larger fare like a Nebula, D-7 or Excelsior class and threaten premier capitol ships like a Vor'cha cruiser or Galaxy.

The most crippling issue, at least for the Federation, is lack of endurance. From Voyager stated compliment of only 38 torpedoes to the Enterprise-A carrying 96 most ships likely could exhaust themselves of torpedoes in a minute or two of heavy use.

I will admit there could be issues with sufficient gunboats reaching the target but the existence of the Federation attack ships you mentioned or the Hideki I referenced would suggest it is doable. The former used by Sisko in the battle to retake DS9 to bait and draw out the Cardassians trying to open up a hole to punch through.

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by 2046 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:31 am

We may have seen two blown up in BoBW, I suppose.

In the real world, torpedo boats were most often employed to defend a certain area from battleships. They had limited range so unless you could tow or carry one into battle on the high seas they weren't that useful except near the coast. Their primary protection was high speed and maneuverability plus punching above their weight class, at the expense of range and protection.

In the context of Trek warfare there are pros and cons versus WW2 use, some similar to the "why fighters" arguments. Let us presume a torpedo boat protecting a planet.

1. Enemy warships can drop out of warp in orbit.

Oops. This is the equivalent of a battleship at the mouth of the harbor from which the PT boat would emerge, negating some of its protections. All it can do is distract a little. If on patrol, now it is launching toward its own stuff when it arrives.

Either way, to be useful it would need warp drive to go out and harry the enemy.

2. Larger ships are often faster ships.

The fastest known Federation vessels are generally full-size starships. Even the Defiant, the closest thing to a purpose-built torpedo boat, of sorts, is a tad slow compared to a Galaxy Class. Runabouts and similar small vessels are restricted to lower warp speeds.

This runs contrary to most normal naval experience In which torpedo boats were useful. The warships could leave the fast attack boats in the dust.

3. Weapon accuracy is different, too.

In WW2 the guns small enough to track a torpedo boat were unable to strike out to torpedo range, providing the torpedo boats with a niche. This is not really the case with starship combat. Maneuverability helps, especially at long range, but it is a one-hit scenario.

4. Maybe as warp strafers?

This would be neat, but not especially useful in a defensive role against warp-driven starships.

5. The defensive role is covered by orbital platforms.

In naval warfare you can't really build a useful gun buoy or gun island to attack the enemy at extended ranges. In space, you can. The advantage of a torpedo boat is that it can move, thus covering more area and requiring less platforms, but that means it probably also won't be as resilient or long-lasting.

---------

So basically, while not implausible, my concern is that torpedo boats have a much more limited niche. I wouldn't say they don't exist . . . the Federation's fighters showing up unexpectedly after decades show up that sort of logic . . . but I would only really expect to see something like that in areas that need fleet defense but aren't big enough for the full orbital-platform-monty.

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by sonofccn » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:31 am

Actually rather than a defensive role I was thinking more along the lines of a cheap, disposable raider type unit that can conduct sneak attacks, ambushes, fight skirmishes and soften up enemy fleets before my Galors have to mix it up.
2046 wrote:2. Larger ships are often faster ships.

The fastest known Federation vessels are generally full-size starships. Even the Defiant, the closest thing to a purpose-built torpedo boat, of sorts, is a tad slow compared to a Galaxy Class. Runabouts and similar small vessels are restricted to lower warp speeds.

This runs contrary to most normal naval experience In which torpedo boats were useful. The warships could leave the fast attack boats in the dust.
Agreed, these gunboats would be slower at warp speed, and have a fraction of the endurance, but at sublight they'd likely be able to run circles around them per Nog in "Valiant", {DS9-06}, dropping the Runabout Shenandoah to impulse to have " an edge in maneuverability" against a jem'hadar bugship.

Not to mention sending a Galaxy class scurrying home because he detected a glorified shuttle inbound I think is victory enough for the Cardassians. ;)
2046 wrote:3. Weapon accuracy is different, too.

In WW2 the guns small enough to track a torpedo boat were unable to strike out to torpedo range, providing the torpedo boats with a niche. This is not really the case with starship combat. Maneuverability helps, especially at long range, but it is a one-hit scenario.
Wouldn't really disagree. Through the Federation Attack fighters surviving to close with the Cardassian ships in the battle to retake DS9 does show it can be done. And at least in this case they'd be able to hit back a lot harder.
2046 wrote:5. The defensive role is covered by orbital platforms.

In naval warfare you can't really build a useful gun buoy or gun island to attack the enemy at extended ranges. In space, you can. The advantage of a torpedo boat is that it can move, thus covering more area and requiring less platforms, but that means it probably also won't be as resilient or long-lasting.
I'm not sure I understand, if I may what do you mean by "attack the enemy at extended ranges"?

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by 2046 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:12 am

Meaning from shore.

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Cardassians and torpedoes a question

Post by fairytellyv » Sat May 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Is there any particular reason that Mon Calamari MC80s and Imperial Star Destroyers seem to lack torpedo launchers ?
Surely torpedoes are not restricted solely to fighters like the X-Wing ?

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by Enterprise E » Sun May 14, 2017 1:38 pm

They are probably too costly and not powerful enough to justify their use onboard capital ships. Turbolasers are both stronger than normal laser cannons, and also have much greater ammunition stamina than torpedoes, which may or may not be as powerful as turbolasers. Even if the two distinct shield types are still canon and particle shields are much weaker than ray shields, a ship only has a limited number of torpedoes it can use, while if it runs out of energy for turbolasers, it probably has a much bigger problem than having simply run out of ammo. Starfighters, on the other hand, are limited in their ability to bring quick harm to capital ships. Torpedoes on them, allow them to be threats to capital ships, forcing the ship to divide its fire between other enemy capital ships and starfighters. And once their torpedoes are expended, starfighters can still deal with other starfighters. In addition, if a capital ship with lots of torpedoes is destroyed, then all those torpedoes go to waste. If a starfighter is destroyed without expending all of its torpedoes, far fewer weapons are lost, and chances are that the starfighter will be able to use more torpedoes than a capital ship before the capital ship is either destroyed, or its torpedo launcher is damaged or destroyed.
Last edited by Enterprise E on Mon May 15, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cardassians and torpedoes, a question.

Post by Jasonbelkin » Mon May 15, 2017 4:36 am

Likely few reasons why Cardassians did not turn those kind tactics.

First limit resources entire reason they had Bajor occupation had limit resourse. The only as we know that Cardassion use quantum torpedoes was on a ATR-4107 weapon. Suggestion only used target they need to destroy. Fighter are not cheap when come resource either you need Dilithium order work warp drives. Then we talk about all that get blow up fire fight.

My theory fighter used much Star trek is Dilithium order power warp drive. If need about the same amount in Fighter then need starship. It just not make economic sense. Remember TOS it rare because they had no way to reuse the Dilithium.

Other possible Cardassions died pointless death.

As for the reasons most none major power use mostly or only photon torpedoes or so forth likley comes simple issues space. Galaxy class starship fire something like 15 to 20 photon torpedoes a second both it black and forward launcehers in one minute could use somewere between somewere between 1,500 to 2,000 photon torpedoes. Galaxy class starship carry them 10,000 or more for last more few minutes. Again no one going to do that very often.

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