Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

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Moff Tarquin
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Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:28 pm

As of today, I am the proud owner of the Episode 7 Incredible Cross Sections. It has a lot of stuff that's disturbing to Trek fans, and a lot of stuff that's damning to Imperial-era technology. In this thread, I'll present the best and the worst, from my perspective, of what's in the book.

From the Introduction on page 5, we have some stuff that's just generally relevant to Star Wars technology. I'll list most of what's on the page.
HYPERDRIVES

Hyperdrives allow ships to travel faster than light, crossing the void between stars through the alternate dimension of hyperspace. Hypermatter particles hurl a ship into hyperspace while preserving its mass/energy profile, sending it along a programmed course until it drops back into normal space at its destination. Large objects in normal space cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jums must be precisely calculated to avoid deadly collisions.
So, as you can see, the new canon has absorbed some Saxtonian BS via osmosis. But, seeing how Disney treats the rest of the Legends material, there's no reason to think that this hypermatter is the same stuff as Saxton's hypermatter - just like the canonical Mandalore isn't the same planet as the Legends Mandalore.

It also talks about gravity technology (repulsorlifts, interdictors) and sensor technology, but there isn't all that much interesting stuff in those sections. So, on to:
ENERGY WEAPONS

Laser cannons and turbolasers are based on the same principle as handheld blasters: energy-rich gas is converted to a glowing particle beam that can melt through targets. The largest such weapons are powerful enough to crack a planet's core. Starships also use ion cannons, which overwhelm electronic systems with ionized energy bursts, and physical ordnance such as concussion missiles and proton torpedoes, whose energy warheads release clouds of high-velocity proton particles.
So, we basically have blaster-gas that gets somehow turned into a particle beam. No explanation is made of the decidedly non-relativistic velocities of the beam on screen. The "cracking a planet's core" thing is so obviously incongruous with everything we've seen of Star Wars capital ship weaponry that I can only conclude that they're talking about Death-Star and Star-Killer type weapons. Which indicates that blasters, laser cannons, turbolasers, and superlasers are all basically the same sort of thing, just on different scales. The "clouds of high-velocity proton particles" are very interesting for reasons we shall see in a moment. But first, let's talk about:
POWER SOURCES

Vehicles use a range of power technologies, most of which date back to the Republic's earliest days. The most common are chemical, fission, or fusion reactors, which consume a variety of fuels based on local resources. Large starships opt for fusion systems that contain hypermatter-annihilation cores, generating vast amounts of power. Many starship fuels are hazardous to organic beings, circulating in ship systems as corrosive liquids or combustible and poisonous gases.
So we have hypermatter-annihilation cores as a component of fusion systems. Moreover, for one reason or another, these are only cost effective on large starships (which can be nearly twice the size of capital ships in the Original Trilogy). The earliest (in-universe) Disney-canon mention of hypermatter has to do with the Death Star, and the immovable canon of the OT, PT, TCW, and associated novelizations indicate that "fusion furnaces" powered "everything from starships to Podracers" during the Late Republic era. Thus, we see a progression: pure fusion almost exclusively in the Republic, then hypermatter-annihilation-augmented fusion in moon-sized space stations in the Galactic Empire, and finally hypermatter-annihilation-augmented fusion in 3-kilometer starships for the First Order. Incidentally, there are many indications throughout the book that the First Order has been doing a lot of cutting-edge research that makes it much more formidable than the Galactic Empire ever was, but there will be time for that in a moment. First, let's hear what there is to say about:
SHIELDS

Shields are protective force fields that repel solid objects or absorb energy. Concussion shields repel space debris, while two varieties of deflector shield protect craft in battle. Ray shields deflect or scatter energy beams, while particle shields diffuse impacts from high-velocity projectiles and proton weapons. A shield's intensity gradually diminishes with distance from its projector. Most starships use a combination of ray and particle shielding for the most reliable protection.
This is pretty basic stuff. Note the description of ray shields acting by what appears to be a refractive mechanism. Such a mechanism would be very effective against a weapon relies on focusing a lot of power on a very small area. The description of particle shields as "diffusing" impacts is less informative.

Now, we know that particle shields are pretty crappy. Why? Because on page twelve, where they describe the X-wing, we learn the following:
PACKING A PUNCH

The original X-wing's designers envisioned a fighter with the speed and power to attack Imperial Star Destroyers, and delivered on that promise. Just like its predecessor, the T-70 has powerful wingtip cannons that can fire in single, dual, or quad mode, and it can punch through deflector shields with its eight proton torpedoes.
Let the following two phrases sink deeply into your minds:

"...a fighter with the speed and power to attack Imperial Star Destroyers...

"...it can punch through deflector shields with its eight proton torpedoes."

Now, in context, this is pretty friggin' sad for those deflector shields. The missile weapon carried by the T-70 X-wing is a "Miniaturized MG7-A proton torpedo." It is about as thick as a roll of wrapping paper, and not much longer than Poe's calf. About 80% of that length is the "torpedo casing," the remainder is a conical "proton warhead." There is an image of one of the torpedoes being fired. The casing remains in the X-wing, the warhead turns into a glowing streak about as long as a pencil and a little bit thicker than Poe's finger. The spent casings are retained in the X-wing. Presumably, it is this little streak that will release a "cloud of high velocity proton particles." Eight of these little streaks will "punch through deflector shields," and endow the X-wing with the "power to attack Imperial Star Destroyers."

One shudders to think what a full spread of photon torpedoes would do. But I digress.

The next couple of quotes come from page 16, which is about the Command Shuttle, and are interesting primarily due to what they suggest about how the First Order got all of its fancy new toys, though the second one also has some interesting stuff about hyperspace.
Advanced sensor suites in the upper wings monitor communications and scan for potential enemies long before they reach firing range, while the lower wings are lined with efficient shield projectors and powerful jammers. These technologies are the products of secret research conducted in the First Order's hidden shipyards and laboratories.
IMPERIAL SECRETS

When the Empire collapsed, the Emperor's servants fled into the Unknown Regions with some of his regime's greatest secrets. For years, military scout ships had explored far beyond the galactic frontier, surveying star systems and blazing hyperspace routes known only to a select few. Far from the prying eyes of the New Republic, the remnants of the Empire established new bases, shipyards, and weapons labs, and began plotting a return to power.
So the remnants of the Empire ran away and started building secret labs. Why is this important? Because - when combined with the facts from Lucas' immovable canon - it means that the hypermatter-annihilation reactors small enough to fit in a ship and the kyber-crystal enhanced turbolasers capable of slagging planets (we'll come to those momentarily) are innovations.

We also have confirmation that blazing new hyperspace routes is possible, but (without prior maps) takes years.

Now, on to the most debate-relevant thing in the book: The Finalizer. The following quotes are the most interesting bits from the fold-out spread that I'm not sure how to number.
EVOKING THE PAST

While its size evokes the command ships of the Empire, the Finalizer's design recalls those of Republic-era capital ships from the Clone Wars. Her dorsal flight deck, side hangers, and prominent keel are similar to elements of the Venator-class Star Destroyer, reflecting a renewed appreciation among First Order tacticians for capital ships' role as carriers. The Finalizer can launch her full complement of starfighters and assault ships much more quickly than her predecessors in the Imperial Navy could. Other Imperial-era design flaws have also been rectified - the need for a better-protected command bridge with increased redundancy in command and control systems was a hard lesson learned from the loss of the Executor at the Battle of Endor.
This emphasizes the offensive role of starfighters (as opposed to onboard weaponry) in the Star Wars universe. The bit about the redundant command center (the cut-away has a Emergency Bridge labeled some 700-800 meters closer to the bow than the Command Bridge) has an interesting implication: Imperial-era star destroyers didn't have redundant command and control systems.
MILITARY MIGHT

Massive turbolaser turrets and heavy ion cannons dot the flanks of the Finalizer's upper hull, with an additional brace of lower batteries set on either side of the bow. Designed for orbital assaults and slugging matches with enemy capital ships, these turbolasers can overload shields, punch through thick armor, and reduce planetary surfaces to molten slag. Smaller point-defense turrets and missile emplacements complement these heavy weapons, tracking more nimble enemies, while the Finalizer's TIEs stand ready to destroy starfighters ship-to-ship.
Other than the implication that capital ships only use missiles to attack "more nimble enemies," the only debate-relevant bit is the claim that turbolasers can "reduce planetary surfaces to molten slag." This is some more Saxtonian BS absorbed by osmosis, but it doesn't necessarily amount to a vindication of "Base Delta Zero." For one thing, it doesn't mention the number of ships required to pull it off, or the amount of time, but there's what the last quote has to say:
SECRETS OF THE ORDER

The Resurgent-class's turbolasers deliver more firepower than Imperial-era weapons and boast a faster recharge rate. This advantage stems from Kyber focusing crystals harvested from a secret source deep in the Unknown Regions. Other First Order captains have clamored for upgrades to their own warships, but military-grade crystals are in short supply. Rumors abound that they are delivered to secret weapons labs, forbidden to all but the First Order's uppermost ranks.
So First Order turbolasers are more powerful and have a higher fire rate than Imperial turbolasers. Why? Because they have kyber focusing crystals. Clearly, these crystals are more than mere focusing elements - if they were, they would have no effect on firepower and recharge rate. It seems reasonable to think that these kyber crystals act like the kyber crystal in the Clone Wars story reels: energy amplifiers. 1 Mt goes in, 100 Mt or more goes out. This explains how capital ships suddenly have the ability to slag planets - something the immovable canon of Lucas never even hinted at.

Also interesting to note is that the Finalizer's weapons aren't merely superior to Imperial era weapons - they're superior to most other First Order weapons as well! This isn't something that every warship in the First Order is armed with.

The main technologically interesting stuff in the rest of the book has to do with TIE fighters.

First Order research has endowed ordinary TIEs with shields - implying that Imperial-era TIEs lacked them. Ordinary TIEs don't have hyperdrives. The wings are indeed solar panels, but the energy they collect is used to "trigger emissions from a high-pressure radioactive fuel." The First Order views fighter pilots as military assets - in contrast to the Galactic Empire, which saw them as expendable.

Special Forces TIE fighters have hyperdrives. It has not one, but two "ion reactors," and supplements them with "banks of high-yield deuterium cells that provide additional power to the engines, weapons, or shields and can be recharged from the TIE's solar panels." It has a bottom-mounted heavy laser turret/warhead launcher in addition to its pair of forward-facing laser canons. The launcher can let loose concussion missiles and mag-pulse warheads. All of this extra stuff gives the TIE/sf a serious heat-rejection problem. Evidently, they attempt to solve it with "an experimental ion-flux cooling system."

A lot of interesting stuff. The biggest boon to the Trek side of the debate is the fact that capital ship particle shields are vulnerable to the teeny-tiny little proton torpedoes on the X-wing. The biggest bane to the Trek side of the debate is the sudden canonicity of BDZ-style planet slagging.

Thoughts, questions, concerns, challenges, or corrections, anyone?

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by SpacePaladin » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:01 pm

Reducing planets to slag wasn't a Saxtonian invention, but the term was used hyperbolically originally. I wonder if they'll go for that position in the new canon.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:08 am

Hyperbolically, eh? Well, that'd be nice, but I'm never one to resort to the "it was hyperbole" explanation if I can help it.

Anyone else? This HAS to be interesting to SOMEBODY other than me.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Khas » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:07 am

Eh, planet-slagging isn't that big a deal (especially considering that my brother did some calcs that show that TDiC isn't NEARLY as big an outlier as everyone says it is - if anything, it's closer to the middle than most peolple think). Though, the fact that slagging planets wasn't even possible until the First Order came along is a massive blow to the Pro-Wars side.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:18 am

IIRC, the MG-7A designation has been around since the Star Wars Technical Journal. Interesting that the obscure designations (never seen or mentioned on screen) are being retained.

Eight proton torpedoes to take down an ISD's shields is actually lower than a lot of the older sources - in the X-Wing books, you have an entire squadron of 12 X-Wings doing a synchronized volley to take down a Victory class, and on the order of 300 for a Super Star Destroyer. The Hutt Gambit has a dreadnought - that's a 600m ship - holding up against the first ten torpedoes. In the old novels, eight proton torpedoes is the sort of size of volley you'd use to threaten a light to medium cruiser.

Not completely surprised that hypermatter is still around - it's too nice of a bit of random technobabble to ditch - but there is one point that's very specific.

"Deuterium cells."

The "ion reactor" sounds like it's the actual engine, while the deuterium cells provide energy via fusion.

It is sort of interesting that, given the chance for a reset, they've retained "solar panel" in the TIE description.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:29 am

Moff Tarquin wrote:Hyperbolically, eh? Well, that'd be nice, but I'm never one to resort to the "it was hyperbole" explanation if I can help it.

Anyone else? This HAS to be interesting to SOMEBODY other than me.
"Slag" should never have been taken in a literal metallurgical sense to refer to reducing the entire surface of a planet to a depth of some meters to a liquified state.

Even if you just have a few millimeters' average depth of melted material, with a naturally uneven distribution, that would be "slagged" as far as most commentators were concerned.

"Slag" basically means "lay waste." Like this. Note that the efficiency is related to the blast size, so kiloton range blasts are much more efficient when it comes to laying waste than megaton range blasts.

Of course, just because the special Star Destroyer can do it doesn't mean that other Star Destroyers can't.

Note also that the "kyber crystal" ultimately originates with the very first EU work, spelled "kaiburr" in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:37 pm

Khas wrote:Eh, planet-slagging isn't that big a deal (especially considering that my brother did some calcs that show that TDiC isn't NEARLY as big an outlier as everyone says it is - if anything, it's closer to the middle than most peolple think).
Oooh! Juicy details? Links? Please?
Though, the fact that slagging planets wasn't even possible until the First Order came along is a massive blow to the Pro-Wars side.
Well, they didn't say that outright. They just said that First Order turbolasers are capable of doing it, but Imperial turbolasers are weaker than First Order turbolasers. My inference - an attempt to harmonize First Order firepower with the Lucas canon - was that this is something new for capital ships.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:25 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:IIRC, the MG-7A designation has been around since the Star Wars Technical Journal. Interesting that the obscure designations (never seen or mentioned on screen) are being retained.

Eight proton torpedoes to take down an ISD's shields is actually lower than a lot of the older sources - in the X-Wing books, you have an entire squadron of 12 X-Wings doing a synchronized volley to take down a Victory class, and on the order of 300 for a Super Star Destroyer. The Hutt Gambit has a dreadnought - that's a 600m ship - holding up against the first ten torpedoes. In the old novels, eight proton torpedoes is the sort of size of volley you'd use to threaten a light to medium cruiser.
My assumption would be that the eight proton torpedoes wouldn't be enough to take down a full-sized ISD. The text in question doesn't mention anything about destruction. It talks about "attack," and "punching through deflector shields." Instead, I would assume that eight proton torpedoes would be sufficient to 1) burn through the particle shields, and 2) cause battle-relevant damage - eg, take out a sensor array or a turbolaser battery. Anything less, and there's no reason to field X-wings against capital ships. Anything more, and there's no reason to bother with capital ships in the first place.

It's interesting to note that this is precisely the sort of thing we see fighters doing (or attempting to do) to capital ships in TPM, ROTS, and ROTJ. I haven't seen enough of TCW to say whether or not the model is completely consistent with the Lucas-canon.
Not completely surprised that hypermatter is still around - it's too nice of a bit of random technobabble to ditch -
I found the implication that it was contained in a fusion system to be quite intriguing. Small fusion furnaces are obviously a part of the Star Wars universe, so it's possible that a fusion system is required to catalyze the hypermatter annihilation. It's sort of like antimatter catalyzed fusion, only in reverse - fusion catalyzed annihilation.
but there is one point that's very specific.

"Deuterium cells."

The "ion reactor" sounds like it's the actual engine, while the deuterium cells provide energy via fusion.

It is sort of interesting that, given the chance for a reset, they've retained "solar panel" in the TIE description.
Since you seem to be intrigued by the stuff about the reactor technology on TIE fighters, I'll provide some extra quotes for you.

From pg. 27, regarding the "standard" First Order TIE fighter:
STAR POWER
A TIE's wings are solar-collecting arrays that gather light energy and channel it through high-efficiency coils into a reactor, where it triggers emissions from a high-pressure radioactive fuel. While visually similar to earlier TIE/Ins, these latest models boast improved solar cells and higher-capacity converters, the products of Imperial research conducted for the TIE Advanced program.
In the illustration on the same page, at the center of the solar panel - where the pylon is attached to the wing - there is an object labeled a "Solar power phase one converter." On the previous page, this structure was surrounded by at least two rings of "phase two converter coils." Anyways, there are "Solar collector power lines" running from the phase one converter down the pylon and to the "SJFS P-s6 twin ion engine system." This "twin ion engine system" appears to make up the core of a toroid-esque shape (with a trapezoidal cross-section) that is mounted on the back of the TIE. The outer rim is circular, but inner rim has the shape of a hexagon. Inside and "below" the hexagonal inner rim is a thing associated with the following label: "SJFS I-a4b solar ionization reactor has no moving parts to reduce maintenance."

From pg. 30:
Special Forces TIEs are two-person fighters that carry a hyperdrive and deflector shields, as well as banks of high-yield deuterium cells that provide additional power to the engines, weapons, or shields and can be recharged from the TIE's solar panels.
The "deuterium cells" bit makes me think "fusion," but the fact that they can be "recharged from the solar panels" throws a wrench in the works of that interpretation.

From pg. 31:
MASS EFFECT
Where the TIE/fo uses a single ion reactor aft of the pilot's seat, the TIE/sf derives power from twin reactors set on either side of the command pod. The TIE/sf's additional armament, shield generators, and power-cell banks create more heat than the craft can dissipate, a problem designers at Sienar-Jaemus have attempted to solve with an experimental ion-flux cooling system. All of these systems make the TIE/sf substantially heavier than a standard TIE, and the pylons between the command pod and wings have been reinforced with layers of alloy bracing.
In the image on the same page, we see an arrangement of power systems similar to that on pgs. 26 and 27, with the following differences: First, three "Phase two converter coils" are visible. Second, the pylon is at the center of a ring of "Pre-charged deuterium power cells." Third, the "Power trunking" running from the power converters connect, not directly to the ion drives, but to an "Overdrive ion-flux cooling system" via a "Heavy-duty power coupling."

Further information about the images:
In both the image of the TIE/sf on pg. 30 and the image of the TIE/fo on pg. 26, we see a compartment on the bottom of the craft labeled "High-pressure radioactive gas fuel tank."

If you'd like an further information about either TIE model, or clarification about the images, don't hesitate to ask.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:09 am

Moff Tarquin wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:IIRC, the MG-7A designation has been around since the Star Wars Technical Journal. Interesting that the obscure designations (never seen or mentioned on screen) are being retained.

Eight proton torpedoes to take down an ISD's shields is actually lower than a lot of the older sources - in the X-Wing books, you have an entire squadron of 12 X-Wings doing a synchronized volley to take down a Victory class, and on the order of 300 for a Super Star Destroyer. The Hutt Gambit has a dreadnought - that's a 600m ship - holding up against the first ten torpedoes. In the old novels, eight proton torpedoes is the sort of size of volley you'd use to threaten a light to medium cruiser.
My assumption would be that the eight proton torpedoes wouldn't be enough to take down a full-sized ISD. The text in question doesn't mention anything about destruction. It talks about "attack," and "punching through deflector shields." Instead, I would assume that eight proton torpedoes would be sufficient to 1) burn through the particle shields, and 2) cause battle-relevant damage - eg, take out a sensor array or a turbolaser battery. Anything less, and there's no reason to field X-wings against capital ships. Anything more, and there's no reason to bother with capital ships in the first place.

It's interesting to note that this is precisely the sort of thing we see fighters doing (or attempting to do) to capital ships in TPM, ROTS, and ROTJ. I haven't seen enough of TCW to say whether or not the model is completely consistent with the Lucas-canon.
Well, in the older books, the strategy for X-wing squadrons taking on capital ships works like this - the first synchronized salvo takes down the shields, and then they rip up the target following up either with their cannons or more torpedoes.

A lot of those old references are here. IIRC, I've dug up more at some point, but the summary of those is:
  • 900 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer, theoretical, complete destruction
  • 300 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer (length various, especially in sources of this age) shields, theoretical, with surplus.
  • 150 proton torpedoes / concussion missiles: Super Star Destroyer, 35% of combat capability.
  • 80 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer shields, actual
  • 80 concussion missiles [Victory Star Destroyer]: Mon Calamari Cruiser (1200m) shields (which could then be subjected to "raking fire" from turbolasers)
  • 24 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, theoretical
  • 22 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, theoretical, with some surplus
  • 22 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, actual
  • 20 proton torpedoes + 2 concussion missiles: Interdictor Cruiser (600m) shields, actual, with a "handful" of missiles blowing through.
  • 10 [ish] proton torpedoes: Dreadnought (600m) shields (the second salvo of ten puts holes in the hull)
  • 8 proton torpedoes: Carrack (350m) shields
  • 8 proton torpedoes: Golan Defense Station (1200m) shields (with a second salvo of eight destroying it)
  • 4 proton torpedoes: Imperial bulk cruiser (600m) shields
  • 1 proton torpedo [Corellian Corvette]: Imperial bulk cruiser (600m) shields
  • 1 concussion missile = TIE Defender shields (second missile to kill)
Lots of those are sectional shields, too. IIRC, there's a comic book somewhere that someone dug up with a lower-end figure, but these are very typical of the older EU - lots of figures in the fiction were more or less in line with games (the X-Wing game series in particular with the X-Wing novel series).

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:13 am

Moff Tarquin wrote:Since you seem to be intrigued by the stuff about the reactor technology on TIE fighters, I'll provide some extra quotes for you.

From pg. 27, regarding the "standard" First Order TIE fighter:
STAR POWER
A TIE's wings are solar-collecting arrays that gather light energy and channel it through high-efficiency coils into a reactor, where it triggers emissions from a high-pressure radioactive fuel. While visually similar to earlier TIE/Ins, these latest models boast improved solar cells and higher-capacity converters, the products of Imperial research conducted for the TIE Advanced program.
In the illustration on the same page, at the center of the solar panel - where the pylon is attached to the wing - there is an object labeled a "Solar power phase one converter." On the previous page, this structure was surrounded by at least two rings of "phase two converter coils." Anyways, there are "Solar collector power lines" running from the phase one converter down the pylon and to the "SJFS P-s6 twin ion engine system." This "twin ion engine system" appears to make up the core of a toroid-esque shape (with a trapezoidal cross-section) that is mounted on the back of the TIE. The outer rim is circular, but inner rim has the shape of a hexagon. Inside and "below" the hexagonal inner rim is a thing associated with the following label: "SJFS I-a4b solar ionization reactor has no moving parts to reduce maintenance."
Toroids are common for SW reactors - also for Tokamak reactors.

The idea of using solar energy to somehow fuel a fusion or fission reaction is ... novel. I would write this down as being, well, not really something that will survive well in translation to a hard science analysis, like kyber crystals (or dilithium crystals) acting as essentially magic power amplifiers. We have had some interesting discussion about the role of solar power on TIE fighters periodically, e.g., this thread. I don't think they're completely useless, but this is one of those explanations that doesn't hold up very well. It smells like technobabble for the sake of avoiding contradiction with prior stuff.
From pg. 30:
Special Forces TIEs are two-person fighters that carry a hyperdrive and deflector shields, as well as banks of high-yield deuterium cells that provide additional power to the engines, weapons, or shields and can be recharged from the TIE's solar panels.
The "deuterium cells" bit makes me think "fusion," but the fact that they can be "recharged from the solar panels" throws a wrench in the works of that interpretation.

That said, the amount that you would recharge is generally not all that much.
Well, a fuel cell is generally rechargeable. Reversable fusion reactions aren't a completely new idea, but it represents very advanced fusion technology.

That does make it sound like there's a main reactor and the cells are supplements added in to increase available power relative to stock TIEs. Makes sense now.
From pg. 31:
MASS EFFECT
Where the TIE/fo uses a single ion reactor aft of the pilot's seat, the TIE/sf derives power from twin reactors set on either side of the command pod. The TIE/sf's additional armament, shield generators, and power-cell banks create more heat than the craft can dissipate, a problem designers at Sienar-Jaemus have attempted to solve with an experimental ion-flux cooling system. All of these systems make the TIE/sf substantially heavier than a standard TIE, and the pylons between the command pod and wings have been reinforced with layers of alloy bracing.
In the image on the same page, we see an arrangement of power systems similar to that on pgs. 26 and 27, with the following differences: First, three "Phase two converter coils" are visible. Second, the pylon is at the center of a ring of "Pre-charged deuterium power cells." Third, the "Power trunking" running from the power converters connect, not directly to the ion drives, but to an "Overdrive ion-flux cooling system" via a "Heavy-duty power coupling."

Further information about the images:
In both the image of the TIE/sf on pg. 30 and the image of the TIE/fo on pg. 26, we see a compartment on the bottom of the craft labeled "High-pressure radioactive gas fuel tank."

If you'd like an further information about either TIE model, or clarification about the images, don't hesitate to ask.
Interestingly, deuterium, previously mentioned, isn't radioactive. For a radioactive gas usable as fuel in a fusion reactor, that points towards tritium, helium-3, or compounds with some tritium in them (e.g., a superheavy methane) considering that deuterium is available.

It is also interesting that it's high-pressure, since liquid fuel shows up in some places. The most efficient choices in many ways would be either tritium as pure as you can get it (efficient by mass) or superheavy hydrocarbons (easier to contain chemically and you get more of it at the same storage pressure).

Considering that I doubt anyone involved with writing this had any contact with the idea of heavy hydrocarbon fuel, it's actually sort of neat that my little fan theory about that still fits the available evidence so well.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Khas » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:41 am

Moff Tarquin wrote:
Khas wrote:Eh, planet-slagging isn't that big a deal (especially considering that my brother did some calcs that show that TDiC isn't NEARLY as big an outlier as everyone says it is - if anything, it's closer to the middle than most peolple think).
Oooh! Juicy details? Links? Please?
http://www.factpile.com/3953-star-trek- ... /#comments

He's the guy named "Aelfinn" in that thread.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:59 am

Khas wrote: http://www.factpile.com/3953-star-trek- ... /#comments

He's the guy named "Aelfinn" in that thread.
Thanks!

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Moff Tarquin
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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:09 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Well, in the older books, the strategy for X-wing squadrons taking on capital ships works like this - the first synchronized salvo takes down the shields, and then they rip up the target following up either with their cannons or more torpedoes.

A lot of those old references are here. IIRC, I've dug up more at some point, but the summary of those is:
  • 900 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer, theoretical, complete destruction
  • 300 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer (length various, especially in sources of this age) shields, theoretical, with surplus.
  • 150 proton torpedoes / concussion missiles: Super Star Destroyer, 35% of combat capability.
  • 80 proton torpedoes: Super Star Destroyer shields, actual
  • 80 concussion missiles [Victory Star Destroyer]: Mon Calamari Cruiser (1200m) shields (which could then be subjected to "raking fire" from turbolasers)
  • 24 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, theoretical
  • 22 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, theoretical, with some surplus
  • 22 proton torpedoes: Victory Star Destroyer (900m) shields, actual
  • 20 proton torpedoes + 2 concussion missiles: Interdictor Cruiser (600m) shields, actual, with a "handful" of missiles blowing through.
  • 10 [ish] proton torpedoes: Dreadnought (600m) shields (the second salvo of ten puts holes in the hull)
  • 8 proton torpedoes: Carrack (350m) shields
  • 8 proton torpedoes: Golan Defense Station (1200m) shields (with a second salvo of eight destroying it)
  • 4 proton torpedoes: Imperial bulk cruiser (600m) shields
  • 1 proton torpedo [Corellian Corvette]: Imperial bulk cruiser (600m) shields
  • 1 concussion missile = TIE Defender shields (second missile to kill)
Lots of those are sectional shields, too. IIRC, there's a comic book somewhere that someone dug up with a lower-end figure, but these are very typical of the older EU - lots of figures in the fiction were more or less in line with games (the X-Wing game series in particular with the X-Wing novel series).
That's a lot more believable - I could get behind it taking, say, thirty or forty proton torpedoes (not the miniaturized kind) to mission-kill an ISD. The torpedoes we see dive into the Death Star look to have a base of around 30 cm. The puny little MG7-A we see on the X-wing in the book can't have a base wider than 10 cm.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Moff Tarquin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:40 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Toroids are common for SW reactors - also for Tokamak reactors.
The toroidal structure is actually labeled "SJFS P-s6 twin ion engine system." There is something that looks to be in the middle of the toroid labeled "SJFS I-a4b solar ionization reactor." My suspicion would be that it is the latter (shaped somewhat like a hexagonal plate, possibly) that is the "reactor."
The idea of using solar energy to somehow fuel a fusion or fission reaction is ... novel. I would write this down as being, well, not really something that will survive well in translation to a hard science analysis, like kyber crystals (or dilithium crystals) acting as essentially magic power amplifiers. We have had some interesting discussion about the role of solar power on TIE fighters periodically, e.g., this thread. I don't think they're completely useless, but this is one of those explanations that doesn't hold up very well. It smells like technobabble for the sake of avoiding contradiction with prior stuff.
It's definitely a funny idea. But it's not the most scientifically implausible technological concept in the Star Wars universe.
From pg. 30:
Special Forces TIEs are two-person fighters that carry a hyperdrive and deflector shields, as well as banks of high-yield deuterium cells that provide additional power to the engines, weapons, or shields and can be recharged from the TIE's solar panels.
The "deuterium cells" bit makes me think "fusion," but the fact that they can be "recharged from the solar panels" throws a wrench in the works of that interpretation.

That said, the amount that you would recharge is generally not all that much.
Well, a fuel cell is generally rechargeable. Reversable fusion reactions aren't a completely new idea, but it represents very advanced fusion technology.

That does make it sound like there's a main reactor and the cells are supplements added in to increase available power relative to stock TIEs. Makes sense now.
They aren't necessarily recharged from the "solar ionization reactor," the phrasing is entirely consistent with the solar panels themselves doing the recharging.

Then again, your interpretation is A LOT more physically plausible.
Interestingly, deuterium, previously mentioned, isn't radioactive. For a radioactive gas usable as fuel in a fusion reactor, that points towards tritium, helium-3, or compounds with some tritium in them (e.g., a superheavy methane) considering that deuterium is available.

It is also interesting that it's high-pressure, since liquid fuel shows up in some places. The most efficient choices in many ways would be either tritium as pure as you can get it (efficient by mass) or superheavy hydrocarbons (easier to contain chemically and you get more of it at the same storage pressure).

Considering that I doubt anyone involved with writing this had any contact with the idea of heavy hydrocarbon fuel, it's actually sort of neat that my little fan theory about that still fits the available evidence so well.
It's also interesting to speculate on the nature of the "energy-rich gas" used to produce the particle beams of energy weapons - if it's the methane-tritium gas, your heavy hydrocarbon fuel could also be key to the operation of most Star Wars weaponry.

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Re: Episode 7 ICS: technologically relevant quotations

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:20 am

Moff Tarquin wrote:
POWER SOURCES

Vehicles use a range of power technologies, most of which date back to the Republic's earliest days. The most common are chemical, fission, or fusion reactors, which consume a variety of fuels based on local resources. Large starships opt for fusion systems that contain hypermatter-annihilation cores, generating vast amounts of power. Many starship fuels are hazardous to organic beings, circulating in ship systems as corrosive liquids or combustible and poisonous gases.
So we have hypermatter-annihilation cores as a component of fusion systems.
Stressing on the component aspect of it is interesting. It makes the system sound like enhanced fusion. That is, perhaps reaching close to the ideal energy production levels.
It certainly doesn't tell anything about hypermatter (remember btw that Saxton hijacked that term from the early first ICS).
We don't even know how those particles annihilate, they're all exotic at the moment BUT that they're being related to hyperspace reminds me of two things:
1. As always, I have a ton of notes scattered across a billion txt files which will never get printed on screens other than mine.
2. An old Star Destroyer cross section diagram did show the power core being directly linked to the hyperdrive. I may even have a scanned picture of that I had prepared for the hypothetical posting of the aforementioned text. It had the benefit of bridging several EU sources with the entire hypermatter concept, if one was willing to forget Saxton's obsession for anything big and dense (...).

What it means is that the fusion could very well be enhanced with hyperspace. That's not a silly concept considering how hypermatter was officially described as being used in the first Death Star's core and how it progressively became clear to debaters and even writers that a superlaser would provide far more destruction than what a simple beam would. In other words, it triggered a level of destruction beyond the output of the core by several orders of magnitude.

The whole backstory about the Talon(?) star destroyer used to experiment a hypermatter core and blowing up would have very well been such an attempt at stabilizing, at a smaller scale, this process.
Then, in order to make it safe and reliable, the whole hypermatter-related phase had to be seriously toned down, unless all large spaceships would be as sensitive as vials of nitroglycerine.
Moreover, for one reason or another, these are only cost effective on large starships (which can be nearly twice the size of capital ships in the Original Trilogy). The earliest (in-universe) Disney-canon mention of hypermatter has to do with the Death Star, and the immovable canon of the OT, PT, TCW, and associated novelizations indicate that "fusion furnaces" powered "everything from starships to Podracers" during the Late Republic era. Thus, we see a progression: pure fusion almost exclusively in the Republic, then hypermatter-annihilation-augmented fusion in moon-sized space stations in the Galactic Empire, and finally hypermatter-annihilation-augmented fusion in 3-kilometer starships for the First Order.
Yes, that's it. Now, the degree of supplemental power isn't described.
Incidentally, there are many indications throughout the book that the First Order has been doing a lot of cutting-edge research that makes it much more formidable than the Galactic Empire ever was, but there will be time for that in a moment.
Perhaps it is more pragmatic? The Empire's "thing" was the super battle station. The amount of efforts, power and money that went into that must have dried the economy of the galaxy at large. So the Empire couldn't really do much than do paint jobs when rolling out the latest lines of Star Destroyers.
One shudders to think what a full spread of photon torpedoes would do. But I digress.
But proton torpedoes are ought to carry far more effective power than beam weapons.
We're talking about nuclear weapons here. They deliver their energies in such a short time frame than the deflector shield would be massively stressed. However, these weapons come in very limited numbers, can be intercepted, sent haywire with jamming and nothing says how many are needed nor the kind of damage they'd do to the hull after that.
So the remnants of the Empire ran away and started building secret labs. Why is this important? Because - when combined with the facts from Lucas' immovable canon - it means that the hypermatter-annihilation reactors small enough to fit in a ship and the kyber-crystal enhanced turbolasers capable of slagging planets (we'll come to those momentarily) are innovations.
In the script of the CW episodes featuring the Kirby weapon, wasn't it Yoda who said something along the lines of this being something entirely new?
Now, on to the most debate-relevant thing in the book: The Finalizer.
I think that if you use it alongside the Rectifier, you've got a solid pack of enhancements to the Microsoft Office suite. One kinda corrects, the other wraps it all for export.
This emphasizes the offensive role of starfighters (as opposed to onboard weaponry) in the Star Wars universe. The bit about the redundant command center (the cut-away has a Emergency Bridge labeled some 700-800 meters closer to the bow than the Command Bridge) has an interesting implication: Imperial-era star destroyers didn't have redundant command and control systems.
One could argue that the Imperial Star Destroyer also was the result of some financial deals with the private sector. In the solid models used for the movies, you can spot docking bays in the side notches, somewhere in the trench. But clearly, the real deployment was reduced to a miserable gap in the belly. Yet, these ships weren't showing any sign of the apparently saved space being devoted to something else, like more heavy weapons, although there were quite a number of medium turbolaser batteries dotting the trenches all way down.
In fact, I'd say the Star Destroyers were progressively turned into space stations. Big lumbering ships, with a bit more heavy turbolasers (barely), largely suggesting an orbital surveyor role more than anything else.
Of course, there was this extra amount of thrusters, which would give a clue as to how the saved space was used: no longer would the fighters and bombers be chasing the enemy crafts; now this duty would fall onto the Star Destroyers' shoulders.
So it's odd. Those models were a strange blend of space stations and dragsters that were very hard to overrun (as per Solo's line).
Then the remnant Imperial forces decided to say screw that, especially looking at how much they lost against swarms of Rebel fighters, and returned to the true and tried method of relying on carriers instead of would be battleships.

Which is fine and all, but are they using hyperspace-capable crafts or still using those planetary-system ranged TIE models?
As we see beneath, they actually couldn't decide, although they did give some TIE models those darn hyperdrives after all.
Still. Decades of using the quite impressive Imperial design has produced fans who only swear by the battleship model. So we're only back to the more hybrid balance but nowhere close to a ship that is almost only carrier in soul, flanked by real destroyers.
Proof being that fighters are still used as a defensive screen, but given a better chance of taking off faster.
So First Order turbolasers are more powerful and have a higher fire rate than Imperial turbolasers. Why? Because they have kyber focusing crystals. Clearly, these crystals are more than mere focusing elements - if they were, they would have no effect on firepower and recharge rate. It seems reasonable to think that these kyber crystals act like the kyber crystal in the Clone Wars story reels: energy amplifiers. 1 Mt goes in, 100 Mt or more goes out. This explains how capital ships suddenly have the ability to slag planets - something the immovable canon of Lucas never even hinted at.
If only the ITL had proven to be able to spit 1 MT of energy! :)
FOTLs are different because they most likely pack a figment of superlaser property to some degree.
Now, I wouldn't take the slag reference literally too soon, we'll wait to see if we're finally going to see something like a starship in SW turn very naughty against a rock or a planet.
First Order research has endowed ordinary TIEs with shields - implying that Imperial-era TIEs lacked them.
Which then confirms that the Millennium Falcon's quad turrets shot flak.
The wings are indeed solar panels, but the energy they collect is used to "trigger emissions from a high-pressure radioactive fuel." The First Order views fighter pilots as military assets - in contrast to the Galactic Empire, which saw them as expendable.
OK, so the solar panels sort of kickstart the fission or fusion reaction.
One would have thought that once the engines are on, they don't need to collect anything else since a minuscule fraction of the cores' output would cover any further need. After all, if what is collected by solar panels can launch the reaction... then any fission or fusion power plant would have no problem to guarantee its own process. It's not like these ships wouldn't store energy in capacitors or have extra fuel cells either.
But I have to ask: is the paragraph describing the role of the panels really specific about what they collect?
If only they could energetic protons used to start a reaction with the fuel...
A lot of interesting stuff. The biggest boon to the Trek side of the debate is the fact that capital ship particle shields are vulnerable to the teeny-tiny little proton torpedoes on the X-wing.
If this is really the point of all that, one simply has to consider that one side uses antimatter for fuel and exchanges fire that either carries antimatter warheads or rock-disintegrating beams, whilst the other side simply doesn't.
Regardless of the details, there would already be a disadvantage right there, one that the SW side could only compensate for by having very large power plants capable of matching in energetic output what Trek ships (or any other fictional ship of similar tech) would produce.
The biggest bane to the Trek side of the debate is the sudden canonicity of BDZ-style planet slagging.
I'm actually more than eager to see those minisuperlasers in action. Perhaps they require to trigger a special mode?
And shooting at a planet isn't like shooting at an enemy ship.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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