Barriers to communication

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Moff Tarquin
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Barriers to communication

Post by Moff Tarquin » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:25 am

I'm thinking of adding a little something to the stories section of the forum, and while I was plotting out my little story, I realized something: there's almost certainly a language barrier between any species in the Milky Way and any species in the Star Wars galaxy.

I mean, sure, the movies are shot with all characters speaking English, but that's no more evidence that people long long ago in a galaxy far far away spoke English than Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar is evidence that people in first century BC Rome spoke English!

And then I started wondering whether or not ships would even be able to contact each other. I mean, does the Empire even have subspace radio? Even hailing on all frequencies isn't guaranteed to get a response if the Imps don't have the right antenna on their Star Destroyers.

So I guess this thread is devoted two three questions:

First, what barriers to successful communication would there be between the Empire and the Federation?

Second, is there any reason to think language would/would not be such a barrier?

Third, is there any reason to think that Imperial and Federation communications systems are/are not compatible?

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by 2046 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:31 am

Even in the Enterprise era there were occasions like "Fight or Flight" where video was exchanged between cultures without coherent language support, though in fairness the Enterprise crew had access to another ship of the same species prior to that. I'm sure other such examples exist, though.

Considering modern difficulties with such things when we're all on the same tech base (does your iPhone do Flash? No. Or is your browser old and can't do HTML5? What about those damnable Quicktime videos that idiots like to use instead of universal formats like .mp4 or .ogg or even .avi (oh wait, your Roku can't play those even though my almost-ten year old hacked GPS can)) . . . well, that's pretty remarkable.

Long story short, I don't think the tech would be an impediment, and as for the universal translator ... well, while it is naturally unlikely that the Imperial language is just like English, I would not expect a device capable of translating the intentions of a frickin' cloud that had been chillin' with Zeffy Cochrane to have trouble with a pretty standard humanoid.

Heck, it might even translate all of R2's filthy cussin'.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:46 pm

Moff Tarquin wrote: So I guess this thread is devoted two three questions:

First, what barriers to successful communication would there be between the Empire and the Federation?
The Federation obviously being destroyed, limiting opportunities for discussion?
Second, is there any reason to think language would/would not be such a barrier?
As long as it sounds like an insult, anything goes. Turbolaser fest.
Third, is there any reason to think that Imperial and Federation communications systems are/are not compatible?
They're ought to at the very least have simple radio. But I'm afraid the radioactive slag of Earth and Vulcan (one meter deep at the very least) will jam all communications anyway.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:49 pm

Moar srsly, both sides have translators (droids or tricorders). This should be quick.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Moff Tarquin » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:24 pm

2046 wrote:Even in the Enterprise era there were occasions like "Fight or Flight" where video was exchanged between cultures without coherent language support, though in fairness the Enterprise crew had access to another ship of the same species prior to that. I'm sure other such examples exist, though.

Considering modern difficulties with such things when we're all on the same tech base (does your iPhone do Flash? No. Or is your browser old and can't do HTML5? What about those damnable Quicktime videos that idiots like to use instead of universal formats like .mp4 or .ogg or even .avi (oh wait, your Roku can't play those even though my almost-ten year old hacked GPS can)) . . . well, that's pretty remarkable.

Long story short, I don't think the tech would be an impediment, and as for the universal translator ... well, while it is naturally unlikely that the Imperial language is just like English, I would not expect a device capable of translating the intentions of a frickin' cloud that had been chillin' with Zeffy Cochrane to have trouble with a pretty standard humanoid.
I didn't know about half of that stuff, largely because for most of my life I didn't have television, just a VHS/DVD player. So while I've seen all the Star Wars movies, and all the Star Trek movies up to Generations, (as well as the two reboot movies, but they don't count) I haven't been able to get my hands on a copy of the actual TV episodes of TCW, Rebels, or any of the Star Trek TV series.

So I was under the impression that the Universal Translator was sort of like Google Translate in space. Apparently that's totally wrong. So the language barrier shouldn't be a major issue.

But let's look a bit closer at the communications technology issues. We have Star Trek, where FTL subspace signals, boosted by various "beacons" strategically located throughout space for communication over interstellar ranges, appear to be the primary method of communication. Electromagnetic radio frequencies are depicted as being used in emergencies, under unusual circumstances, or when contacting a less advanced world. In Star Wars, the primary mode of communication used is a sort of holographic skype (Holo-net in the EU), which on occasion allows for near-instantaneous communication across galactic distances. While the communication among fighters and other ships in a fleet or other battle situation could be construed as radio, it could just as easily be using the same medium as the "Holo-net." Comlinks in the EU closely resemble radios (particularly in terms of their sensitivity to EM interference), but in the canon, Luke's comlink has no trouble sending information to C-3PO aboard the Death Star, which could reasonably be expected to be a noisy environment - essentially being a flying city weapon.

Oh, and this:
Heck, it might even translate all of R2's filthy cussin'.
made me laugh out loud.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Moff Tarquin » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:29 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Moff Tarquin wrote: So I guess this thread is devoted two three questions:

First, what barriers to successful communication would there be between the Empire and the Federation?
The Federation obviously being destroyed, limiting opportunities for discussion?
I was operating under the assumption that nobody involved would shoot first and ask questions later. After all, Darth Sidious rose to power in the first place through intrigue.
Third, is there any reason to think that Imperial and Federation communications systems are/are not compatible?
They're ought to at the very least have simple radio.
I agree that the Feds would have various EM communication systems (though they only use them rarely), but what communications systems we see the Republic and Empire using are either a) extraordinarily FTL (interstellar skype!), or b) nearly impossible to gauge with regards to mechanism. At the same time, they are unlikely to be subspace based, if only because we have no idea whether the Star Wars universe even has Star Trek brand subspace.

Given that we're dealing with a civilization thousands of years old, I'm not entirely sure whether they'd still be using EM signals as even a backup communications system if they have something fast and intense enough to be picked up across the galaxy.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by 359 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:58 pm

I vaguely recall something being mentioned in The Clone Wars about the use of radio in Star Wars for short range... But I'm not entirely sure. It was that or radar... Or both...

Anyway, assuming it isn't hyperspace based, the large suit of Federation communication bands, beyond the common subspace bands, and general sensing abilities should be able to pick it up (and even if it is hyperspace based I wouldn't be too surprised if they could detect it). And their universal translator technology would likely allow the computer to interpret those signals properly, because unlike a protocol droid, for example, which is pre-programed to recognize a finite set of languages, a universal translator is intelligently adaptive and can pull language patterns out of previously unknown signal protocols.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Moff Tarquin » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:03 pm

359 wrote:I vaguely recall something being mentioned in The Clone Wars about the use of radio in Star Wars for short range... But I'm not entirely sure. It was that or radar... Or both...

Anyway, assuming it isn't hyperspace based, the large suit of Federation communication bands, beyond the common subspace bands, and general sensing abilities should be able to pick it up (and even if it is hyperspace based I wouldn't be too surprised if they could detect it). And their universal translator technology would likely allow the computer to interpret those signals properly, because unlike a protocol droid, for example, which is pre-programed to recognize a finite set of languages, a universal translator is intelligently adaptive and can pull language patterns out of previously unknown signal protocols.
Well, both of my proposed barriers to communication seem to be full of holes. My working outline for TrekWars: Requiem will be modified accordingly.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Darth Spock » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:54 am

Just a quick thought to add. I agree with the previous posts so far, even with potential complications to compatible communication technology, there's bound to be some overlap somewhere, if nothing else they can dock/beam over and make contact, and both factions would likely be bringing the equivalent of a massive, interstellar Rosetta Stone to the table. I expect the universal translator would indeed do most of the heavy lifting on first contact, though it can run into problems. Recall Darmok. Of course, even then, it seemed to translate proper names and parts of speech correctly, just not the meaning behind the strange logographic language. (How would that even work verbally?!) I recall C-3PO repeatedly griping about interpreting "primitive dialects," indicating he has some adaptability beyond only what he is programmed with. Also, as his designation of "protocol" droid would indicate, units of this type probably serve as more than just walking, talking pocket translators, and were likely meant to fill roles similar to what Neelix performed with Janeway's meeting with the Tak Tak in the episode Macrocosm.

But, yeah, having rambled, I agree with everyone else, first contact translations would likely be boring and relatively fast, and in the long term, large scale, I'd imagine it to be a non-issue. But, depending on what you had in mind for a story, the idea could make for some interesting scenarios on the small scale, shady edge of dealings between the two galaxies.
I imagine things my not go so smoothly between factions not so well equipped, and operating outside of official channels, for example, if a small time Hutt tried pulling a shady deal with someone like Kruge or the Duras sisters. Or, alternatively, if a small rebel faction, like the crew of the Ghost, tried buying some black market wares from an unscrupulous Ferengi, or someone like Kivas Fajo or Harcourt Mudd.

So, the quality of available translators could make for some interesting events.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Moff Tarquin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:28 pm

Darth Spock wrote: if nothing else they can dock/beam over and make contact, and both factions would likely be bringing the equivalent of a massive, interstellar Rosetta Stone to the table.
That is a cool and poetic way to think of a starship.
But, depending on what you had in mind for a story, the idea could make for some interesting scenarios on the small scale, shady edge of dealings between the two galaxies.
Sadly, the story is basically a large scale one. It starts right as the Enterprise 1701's five year journey is about to end, and it is more or less about a war between the alpha and beta quadrant powers of the 23'd century and the Empire in the years between ANH and TESB. So I probably won't be covering those small scale interactions too much.

That said, there's still plenty of room to have fun with these kinds of issues. For example, most folks on Tatooine, at least, seem to be multilingual, speaking their own language, but understanding everybody else's. Having gotten used to that status quo, if somebody carrying a universal translator were to suddenly turn up, Han would probably be surprised to hear Chewie speaking Basic. And it would be very easy to have some fun with that.

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by mojo » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:23 pm

Darth Spock wrote:...and both factions would likely be bringing the equivalent of a massive, interstellar Rosetta Stone to the table.
i was also impressed with this. very nice!

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Re: Barriers to communication

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:37 pm

2046 wrote:Considering modern difficulties with such things when we're all on the same tech base (does your iPhone do Flash? No. Or is your browser old and can't do HTML5? What about those damnable Quicktime videos that idiots like to use instead of universal formats like .mp4 or .ogg or even .avi (oh wait, your Roku can't play those even though my almost-ten year old hacked GPS can)) . . . well, that's pretty remarkable.
We saw as early as TOS' "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Bread and Circuses" that the Enterprise's communications systems can very quickly detect and lock onto signals. In the former example's case, Uhura was searching for the regular Starfleet channels to inform them of the black hole the ship had encountered, and wasn't expecting a first contact situation like was the case in "Bread and Circuses". So that means that Federation vessels are capable of finding and then interpreting the formats and such for communication protocols. We might speculate that they use some exotic matrix or quantum entanglement to do this, but whatever the case may be, it is definitely something they can do.
-Mike

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