Phaser NDF theory

[Darth Spock]

The biggest problem with that is that there is no evidence that I am aware of that would even begin to suggest such a thing. Why have matter in the shield and thus allow a phaser or disruptor to do even more damage to it than if it was pure energy.

Well, one possible reason why they would have matter in their combat shield is if that is the only viable way of maintaining an effective defensive screen, a shield of pure energy may not work. Thinking of the infamous quote regarding lasers not penetrating navigational shields, it's possible that navigational shields are essentially transparent to phasers and disruptors, and that combat shields require a material component to be effective. Of course you're right, it is only a theory, but no less likely than assuming them to be pure energy, either. This could also help explain the use of gravitons as part of the shield system, serving as a stabilizing component to the matter in the shield bubble.

The percentage doesn't seem to represent the shield "health" per say, but more it's current effectiveness. Hence some weapons striking the shields but it is stated that the shields are "holding." Clearly the shields used some energy in protecting the ship, so why doesn't their rating change? That'd be because the fire did not reduce the shield's ability to offer protection. It also explains how the ships take greater damage as the shields fall in percentage. The shields are no longer offering total protection from damage.

I agree about the percentage reflecting the shields current effectiveness. But as noted, if the shields are already knocked down to a lower effective percentage, they can continue to dump full power (or more) into the shields but the effective percentage of the shields won't increase, except for that one time in Equinox where totally "rebooting" them brought them to full. By the same token, incidents where the shields "hold" against impacts would still require energy, but may represent optimal deflection without losing any effective material component.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, one possible reason why they would have matter in their combat shield is if that is the only viable way of maintaining an effective defensive screen, a shield of pure energy may not work. Thinking of the infamous quote regarding lasers not penetrating navigational shields, it's possible that navigational shields are essentially transparent to phasers and disruptors, and that combat shields require a material component to be effective. Of course you're right, it is only a theory, but no less likely than assuming them to be pure energy, either. This could also help explain the use of gravitons as part of the shield system, serving as a stabilizing component to the matter in the shield bubble.

That still supposes that Starfleet and other Trek power designers are stupid enough to make a system radically vulnerable to such an obvious effect and for no benefit in return. We have the system readouts for shields, nothing about matter is involved with it. The gravitons are there to bend space-time around the ship and distort/block incoming attacks. The reason weapons can fire into and out of shields is due to frequency, which these things are based on and can be genuinely vulnerable to, and we hear about it over and over. In fact, based on what we hear, not only are phasers and disruptors EM-based, but we also know that may be a prime component of shields as well as gravitons, probably what gives them shape and form around the ship.
-Mike

[Darth Spock]

That still supposes that Starfleet and other Trek power designers are stupid enough to make a system radically vulnerable to such an obvious effect and for no benefit in return.

That's kind of like saying ablative armor is a fundamentally flawed concept because the designers know it will take significant damage from incoming weapons. More importantly, it assumes Trek powers have a pure energy alternative that can effectively deflect fire by itself. This is not necessarily the case.

We have the system readouts for shields, nothing about matter is involved with it. The gravitons are there to bend space-time around the ship and distort/block incoming attacks. The reason weapons can fire into and out of shields is due to frequency, which these things are based on and can be genuinely vulnerable to, and we hear about it over and over.

Actually, both EM and particles have been mentioned in reference to shields:

REED: Starfleet's been working on creating a stable EM barrier for the last five years.
T'POL: A force field.
REED: Right. They just haven't found a way to control the particle density. All the specs are in the database. I've been trying to jerry-rig a prototype of my own.

This was in reference to a planar shield like typically seen inside vessels, and two centuries prior to TNG, but the concept of particles in a shield is not without precedence in the canon, and there no are specific indications that shields do not contain particles either. I'm inclined to think of particles in a shield filling a role similar to rebar in concrete, or fiber in the resin of a carbon fiber panel.

The use of gravitons to bend space-time around the ship is limited to the TM, and while I love the concept, it doesn't match well with observed shield interactions, at least not as a primary means of defense. Besides, if the idea is to deflect incoming fire around the ship, I dare say warp technology would do a far better job. In fact, by that logic the nacelles should be able to distort the path of incoming fire very well. Instead, we always see the shields acting exactly as a "shield," taking the hit before it reaches the ship. Although the use of gravitons could provide "push" against incoming hazards, rather than stabilizing shield particles as I first assumed.

In fact, based on what we hear, not only are phasers and disruptors EM-based, but we also know that may be a prime component of shields as well as gravitons, probably what gives them shape and form around the ship.
-Mike

Actually, while phasers have an EM component, they are referred to as particle weapons:

LAFORGE: Data, I reconfigured the phasers to create the most highly focused particle beam possible.

PICARD: The problem is if we begin firing particle weapons in engineering there's a risk we may hit the warp core.

I suppose they could be referring to elementary particles, but then a laser should be considered a "particle" beam too. I'm not real clear on the technical details, but I suppose it is possible that they fire particles that generate an EM field as they accelerate, and the frequencies could refer to the particle oscillations, but that's getting needlessly complicated, and I'm not even sure if it would work. Also, in TNG Peak Performance, they configured the phaser emitters to fire low powered lasers for the war game. So phasers evidently can emit EM radiation directly.

I'd say phasers actually emit a combination of charged particles and EM waves together, this opens up a lot different abilities, and most easily fits all the details given.

[Goper]

Hi Darth Spock, sorry for failing to reply in this thread for such a long time.

I wouldn't really say that the idea of shields as distortions of space-time doesn't match well with the observed visuals, as shields often appear to distort weapons around their perimeter. Perhaps the "shield flare" that we see when a shield gets hit by a weapon is actually a result of the weapon getting distorted by the shield? If this is the case, it would mean that we never actually see the shield; the flaring that we see comes from the weapon.

By the way. this is similar to how black holes can be detected; we can't actually see them, but we can see their effects on their surroundings. This is just an opinion, but I think the shield flare effect looks somewhat similar to the gravitational lensing effect produced by black holes. There would still be the issue of viewers being able to see the ships despite them being enveloped by shields, but that could be explained away as artistic license. Besides, if I don't remember correctly, one episode of TOS implied that ships are invisible to the naked eye when their shields are up.

Then again, I'm not really suggesting that shields are truly of this nature, I'm just attempting to propose that this may actually be possible. Thus far, we still don't have inconclusive evidence to prove the true nature of shields.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's kind of like saying ablative armor is a fundamentally flawed concept because the designers know it will take significant damage from incoming weapons. More importantly, it assumes Trek powers have a pure energy alternative that can effectively deflect fire by itself. This is not necessarily the case.

But what is ablative armor? How exactly does it work, do you know? If it is designed to slough off when the weapon hits and carry the heat-energy away from the ship, then it's doing its job (being expendable in the process). It is not even the ship's first line of defense, shields are still the main line defense.

his was in reference to a planar shield like typically seen inside vessels, and two centuries prior to TNG, but the concept of particles in a shield is not without precedence in the canon, and there no are specific indications that shields do not contain particles either. I'm inclined to think of particles in a shield filling a role similar to rebar in concrete, or fiber in the resin of a carbon fiber panel.

The use of gravitons to bend space-time around the ship is limited to the TM, and while I love the concept, it doesn't match well with observed shield interactions, at least not as a primary means of defense. Besides, if the idea is to deflect incoming fire around the ship, I dare say warp technology would do a far better job. In fact, by that logic the nacelles should be able to distort the path of incoming fire very well. Instead, we always see the shields acting exactly as a "shield," taking the hit before it reaches the ship. Although the use of gravitons could provide "push" against incoming hazards, rather than stabilizing shield particles as I first assumed.

It is not limited to the TNG TM. It is something we see on various okudagrams throught TNG and Generations. That may be a form of soft canon, but it is still a canon thing. What exactly the difference between shields and deflectors is still unknown as is the difference between them and the sometimes referred to screens.

Actually, while phasers have an EM component, they are referred to as particle weapons

Yes, we know that. That's not a disputed thing. We just don't know if that's the case with shields, or if there are, are they a major component.

I suppose they could be referring to elementary particles, but then a laser should be considered a "particle" beam too. I'm not real clear on the technical details, but I suppose it is possible that they fire particles that generate an EM field as they accelerate, and the frequencies could refer to the particle oscillations, but that's getting needlessly complicated, and I'm not even sure if it would work. Also, in TNG Peak Performance, they configured the phaser emitters to fire low powered lasers for the war game. So phasers evidently can emit EM radiation directly.

I'd say phasers actually emit a combination of charged particles and EM waves together, this opens up a lot different abilities, and most easily fits all the details given.

Or they fire a beam that uses the EM component to accelerate the nadions and or other particles. Whatever is the case, the EM component is pretty big based on the "The Mind's Eye" 1.02 MW statement, and "Best of Both Worlds" where they talk about controlled high end frequencies.
-Mike

[Darth Spock]

Hi Darth Spock, sorry for failing to reply in this thread for such a long time.

Not at all, and I just realized I haven't properly welcomed you to the forum, so, howdy!

I wouldn't really say that the idea of shields as distortions of space-time doesn't match well with the observed visuals, as shields often appear to distort weapons around their perimeter. Perhaps the "shield flare" that we see when a shield gets hit by a weapon is actually a result of the weapon getting distorted by the shield? If this is the case, it would mean that we never actually see the shield; the flaring that we see comes from the weapon.

By the way. this is similar to how black holes can be detected; we can't actually see them, but we can see their effects on their surroundings. This is just an opinion, but I think the shield flare effect looks somewhat similar to the gravitational lensing effect produced by black holes. There would still be the issue of viewers being able to see the ships despite them being enveloped by shields, but that could be explained away as artistic license. Besides, if I don't remember correctly, one episode of TOS implied that ships are invisible to the naked eye when their shields are up.

Then again, I'm not really suggesting that shields are truly of this nature, I'm just attempting to propose that this may actually be possible. Thus far, we still don't have inconclusive evidence to prove the true nature of shields.

Quite true, it's hard to "prove' anything in a fictional universe, and my point was to offer an alternative explanation to the seeming incongruity of NDF phasers interacting with "energy" shields. Still, shield flares often react rather consistently by their own type, rather than varying according to incoming fire, such as the Klingon ship deflecting an orange phaser into a green flare, or the subsequent disruptors causing the Enterprise's shields to flash blue as they pass through unimpeded. We also see physical impacts causing shield sparkles, so shields can provide there own flare.

A bit off topic, but while we're on the subject of shield visibility, here's a few interesting tidbits. In DS9 "Second Skin" the Defiant's shields are modified to make the ship appear as a Kobheerian freighter to long range sensors, though this would not work at close range.
In VOY "Future's End" Voyager's shields were modulated to scatter late 20th century Earth radar, and later in a shuttle, Torres "configured the shields to disguise our visual profile. Unless somebody gets right on top of us, we should look like a small twentieth century aircraft."

[Darth Spock]

But what is ablative armor? How exactly does it work, do you know? If it is designed to slough off when the weapon hits and carry the heat-energy away from the ship, then it's doing its job (being expendable in the process). It is not even the ship's first line of defense, shields are still the main line defense.

Actually, I was referring to ablative armor in a general sense, not just in Trek, we could also compare it to reactive armor. A shield getting blasted by heavy weaponry before it reaches the ship is doing it's job too, and since they are steadily depleted under fire they are obviously an impermanent thing. We just don't know their exact composition.

It is not limited to the TNG TM. It is something we see on various okudagrams throught TNG and Generations. That may be a form of soft canon, but it is still a canon thing. What exactly the difference between shields and deflectors is still unknown as is the difference between them and the sometimes referred to screens.

Ah, sorry. Allow me to clarify. Yes, gravitons are definitely a part of the shield system, but the idea that they "bend space-time around the ship and distort/block incoming attacks" is rooted in the TM. Incoming fire doesn't follow a "spatial distortion" around or away from the target like light through an optical fiber, it hits the shield and interacts with it, dealing damage to it. That's not to say this idea is wrong, but it lacks hard canon clarification as to the purpose of the gravitons. Even if this is the function they fill, as Goper mentioned the expanding flair spreading over shield bubbles, it is apparently only a part of the whole shield system, otherwise I think shields would react quite differently under fire than they are shown to do.

As far as particles being a part of the shield bubble, we do have one hard canon reference of an "energy barrier" containing particles, and I still think it fits well with all the evidence. I can appreciate if you are not sold on the idea, it certainly isn't definitive, but the idea is not arbitrary, and I don't see any specific evidence pointing against the concept either.

Or they fire a beam that uses the EM component to accelerate the nadions and or other particles. Whatever is the case, the EM component is pretty big based on the "The Mind's Eye" 1.02 MW statement, and "Best of Both Worlds" where they talk about controlled high end frequencies.
-Mike

100% in agreement there, phasers emitting an EM component accelerating particles makes the most sense to me.

[Goper]

Not at all, and I just realized I haven't properly welcomed you to the forum, so, howdy!

Thank you for the warm welcome :D

Still, shield flares often react rather consistently by their own type, rather than varying according to incoming fire, such as the Klingon ship deflecting an orange phaser into a green flare, or the subsequent disruptors causing the Enterprise's shields to flash blue as they pass through unimpeded.

We also see physical impacts causing shield sparkles, so shields can provide there own flare. [/quote]

Perhaps the shields act like a prism of some sort, distorting the colour of weapons into a certain colour, depending on their type of shield?

[Darth Spock]

A bit off topic still, but I found point I thought was worth adding to the comments on shield composition. In DS9 "The Way of the Warrior" Worf locks a modulated tractor beam on the disruptor emitter of a Vor'cha, which has the effect of "deflecting some of the Klingons' disruptor fire." Specifically bringing its effectiveness to fifty percent.
Before:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_312.jpg
After:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_316.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_317.jpg

As I understand it, tractor beams in Trek operate largely by means of gravitons. This incident does add credence to the idea of gravitons contributing to the deflection of incoming fire, potentially causing the miss seen above, and definitely causing the beam to spray out from the tight beam seen before, with dialog confirmation to its reduced effectiveness. On the other hand, focusing the full tractor beam's power directly on the enemy's weapon emitter resulting in only a 50% reduction in its effectiveness makes it sound like gravitons in the shields immediately surrounding the ship would probably only make up a portion of their defensive value.