Rebels shows how Death Star Cell Block Door Blown Open?

[Mike DiCenso]

In the Star Wars Rebels season 2 premire episode "The Siege of Lothal" we see stormtroopers plant a small shape charge to blow open a large hole in the metal doors of an abandoned building Sabine Wren, Hera Syndulla, Ezra Bridger, Zeb Orrelios, and Kanan Jarrus are hiding out in. You can see it here at 14:01 to 14:10. I found it very interesting that when the scene switched back to the inside view, the explosion that resulted very closely resembled the one seen in Star Wars: A New Hope when the Detention Block AA-23 elevator door is blown open.

Both explosions look very much like one another in size and shape, and open very similar sized holes.

While this might have been intended by the animators for the episode as a homage to the ANH scene, it does also open up the possibility that the Death Star troopers did something similar to the Lothal ones rather than burn through using their blasters as some have suggested.

Also interesting that the stormtroopers didn't blast open either the doors, or the boarded up windows to either side with their blasters. An indication of limitations on power and or ammo supply or both for that particular model?
-Mike

[2046]

Silly Trekkie minimalist! Ha! There was no explosive. The stormie was just planting on a target for his punch. His punch, not observed onscreen, is what collapsed the door. And, since we see the door work-heated (a logical necessity because of the fire), we know that the punch happened and was simply too fast for 30fps to show. We also can estimate the kinetic energy of a supersonic fist, and I declare it to be equivalent of 17.2 tons of TNT. That door was REALLY strong, see? And being generous to minimalists like yourself and assuming only one punch every two seconds, that still gives Stormtroopers a sustained 8.6 tons per second, or half a kiloton per minute. And remember, we have seen clones punch droids ineffectively.

How, then, do you explain your foolish minimalist position that blaster shots yield less than kilotons? They would be useless if millions of times weaker than fists, like a BB gun where they just fall out.

============

Or, for a slightly less sarcastic response, for those who include Disney it is nice to see when Rebels keeps closer to Lucas logic rather than following the temptation toward book nonsense. A planted explosive has been the obvious conclusion since 1977. Only the more recent inflationist phenomenon saw attempts to claim otherwise, but at least the Rebels guys at least try to keep closer to Lucas's examples.

[Darth Spock]

Heh, the 501st, Vader's FIST indeed. Although, I'm feeling even more conservative for some reason.... I think I'm under the influence of an alien entity! Still, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the lack of debris, and with what looked like (to me) a hole the same exact shape as the door frame. I kind of wonder if the door beach just broke Chopper's spot weld/lock, and enabled the door to open.

Which reminds me of another door blast from ANH I don't recall seeing much to-do over: the boarding of the Taintive IV. I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen claims for that door being vaporized, as its basically GONE when the storm troopers enter. As much as I like demonstrations of big, powerful ordinance, that doesn't seem plausible. Though the more likely event of the door blowing outward obviously didn't occur, and it doesn't make sense it was pulled inward. I generally am inclined to think more along the lines I mentioned above, that the lock/mechanism was blown, allowing the door to be forced open in its track. In truth, that is more a scene I've been hoping to see depicted from the offensive side since the Clone Wars and now Rebels began. I wonder if I just did....

[359]

I tend to agree with Darth Spock, this was a specialty dedicated breaching charge. There just isn't enough debris to have totally blown away the door. However, going through the frame-by-frame I did notice some interesting details.

First the charge sent out an energy pulse of some sort. The pulse covers the door and flashes on four different locations around the door frame. Several (video, not door) frames later these locations almost simultaneously detonate in small explosions. Simultaneously the centerline on the door starts glowing where the two halves meet, and then itself explodes at the location of the detonator in the final large blast. To me this suggests that the detonator operates by searching for a locking mechanism, destroying said mechanism, and then forcing the door with the final blast.

I would assume such "safe" explosion is used to protect the troopers who have no better cover than their armor (which really doesn't count as cover). Protecting the contents of the room certainly wasn't a priority given the trooper's entrance.

The Tantive IV door did produce a good deal of debris, and based on the explosion I would guess that the beaching was a similar process as what is observed in this episode. Probably the debris was the result of breaching a tougher door versus a common house door.

And again in TCW: "A Test of Strength" we see a similar breaching maneuver. Except the door is not forced, so I would guess that they simply cut the door free rather than using a fancy charge. The lack of a fancy charge seems supported by the low-tech nature of their ship and its grappling à la NX-01.

But I doubt they used a similar device on the prison elevator door. There are none of the effects seen in this breaching such as mini-explosions. I would suspect this is due to the differing nature of the doors. The prison door is a security door after all and I would expect, and hope, it would be more resilient than these others. Because of this they seemed forced to simply put a new hole in the otherwise quite solid wall.

But the use of, and apparent need for, a charge in this instance does seem to suggest that a charge was used in the prison door event as well, even if it was a different type of charge. And these charges can definitely be powerful enough to demolish a door as we see moments later in the episode, and in many other episodes where similar detonators are used to demolish large rock faces.

[Pheonix]

It's probably a different (less powerful?) device . The metal door in the Death Star seemed to be blown apart far more violently (and it seemed like a heavier door, too). I don't think the fact that they didn't blast out the boarded over windows means that they couldn't have, or represents a hard limit on firepower, since they have demonstrated sufficient power to blast out that kind of covering on previous occasions, and blasting out the door provides a far superior access point for the stormtroopers compared to clambering through the blasted out windows, whilst possibly taking enemy fire from within the building. They could even have used the charge to blow out a window instead, if they had wanted too (unless as speculated, it's anti-lock, not brute force, in which case they still had blasters).

The bulkhead thing doesn't seem to hold much water. The fact they used demolition devices here implies similar tactics may have been used where they have gone unseen before. I will retract and re-adjust the appropriate page on blaster firepower page to reflect this. I'll probably keep some notes on the behind the scenes info regarding Lucas's comments as well as brief discussion of these events. However blasting apart metal doors seems like it is beyond the "high powered shots" we actually observe. High powered shots seem to punch craters into walls between 10 and 20cm across in the films. The clone troopers long-rifle is said to be capable of blasting a 50cm wide hole through a wall in one of the new books. So maximum power is far beyond modern day rifles, typical blaster kill shots, and even 50 cals (in terms of total damage and cratering at least) but not in the realms of full on RPG's, anti-tank weapons, bulkhead busters, ect. either (though they may crater solid walls about as much as some 20 to 30mm autocannons can do today). 359's stick of dynamite analogy seemed somewhat appropriate for the general explosiveness / demolition effectiveness of high powered blaster shots. Such shots could probably be considered semi-armour piercing high explosive, or something to that effect. Although real life SAPHE rounds put smaller holes / craters into targets, so it may take a handful of shots from the closest real life equivalents to replicate some of the effects. I suspect a blaster set to maximum power might damage modern day lightly armoured vehicles and IFV's, or take out a car or small truck with a well placed shot.

[Pheonix]

Or, for a slightly less sarcastic response, for those who include Disney it is nice to see when Rebels keeps closer to Lucas logic rather than following the temptation toward book nonsense.

Hilariously, George Lucas was the guy who first talked about blowing away "metal doors" with "pistols", in Star Wars. Damned Lucas Logic inflationism! lol
This was actually the primary inspiration behind the bulkhead section, with the actual door blasting serving as a possible example, whilst noting that an explosion could've been used. We have a similar (worse?) issue with this example too.

Someone was talking about why they may have wanted to use a less powerful device here, due to the close proximity of the troopers. But in this example the troopers could have backed off, whereas in the Death Star example, weren't all the troopers crammed into that rather small turbolift? Where they would have been virtually right next to the door when it got blown through.

[Mike DiCenso]

Or, for a slightly less sarcastic response, for those who include Disney it is nice to see when Rebels keeps closer to Lucas logic rather than following the temptation toward book nonsense.

Hilariously, George Lucas was the guy who first talked about blowing away "metal doors" with "pistols", in Star Wars. Damned Lucas Logic inflationism! lol
This was actually the primary inspiration behind the bulkhead section, with the actual door blasting serving as a possible example, whilst noting that an explosion could've been used. We have a similar (worse?) issue with this example too.

Welcome to the forum, Pheonix.

First off, I'd like to know where you heard that Lucas talked about "blowing away metal doors with pistols". To my knowledge, he's never said any such thing. Can you cite a source?

Someone was talking about why they may have wanted to use a less powerful device here, due to the close proximity of the troopers. But in this example the troopers could have backed off, whereas in the Death Star example, weren't all the troopers crammed into that rather small turbolift? Where they would have been virtually right next to the door when it got blown through.

There are a lot of problems, most of which are hand waved away with artistic license in both movie and animation alike. But that being said, the mechanism that the planted explosive uses isn't made too clear to us, and there may be a safety factor built in that allows for Stormtroopers to be that close since they (theoretically) have body armor (shrapnel and concussion protection) and helmets (protection for eyes and hearing). That and we know obviously as the original trilogy and now Rebels makes abundantly clear, that the Empire doesn't give two craps about the lives of their soldiers. So stormtroopers using a shaped charge explosive in the tight confines of an elevator cab, isn't too far fetched a thing. Also, how big are the elevator cabs? How many stormtroopers came out after the explosion goes off? Are all the elevator cabs the same or are some bigger than others?

So let's look at the ANH scene again. At 0:52, you can see that the one Han, Luke, and Chewie enter looks pretty spacious, it's not that small and probably about 5 or 6 people can fit comfortably inside. When they get to their destination, at 1:25 and later 2:16, you can see there is more than one elevator to and from the detention center, at least three total. At 3:34 the troopers blow through from the far right one while our heroes came from the center one. The door is blown open (2 big chunks of the door are blown forward and then fall down) and after the first trooper gets taken out by Han and Chewie, you can see the others inside what looks to be a very spacious elevator cab. At 3:48, you can see there were at least 5 stormtroopers inside there, including the unlucky first one.

All right, all that being established, we can figure that the cabs have enough room in them that 5 troopers can fit in them comfortably and with enough room that whether they planted an explosive, as was done in Rebels, or shot the door, they had enough room to do so with a bit of margin for safety.
-Mike

[2046]

Phoenix correctly refers to the ANH novel that preceded the film, though that was ghost-written by Alan Dean Foster. In that book, Luke fires continuously on Leia's cell door until the laser pistol got hot in his hands. I'm not sure off the top of my head whether that was ever in the early scripts, but obviously it wasn't there later.

Of course, in the film, he pushes a button, and doors are blasted by explosives.

[Mike DiCenso]

Thanks for that info, Robert. But I would have preferred Pheonix to give the proper citation from the novelization. And yes, if your description is accurate, it does contradict the final movie version far to much to be considered really useful here other than maybe Lucas, and more likely Alan Dean Foster thought that might be the way to do it.

"For a long moment he examined the featureless metal wall. Turning his pistol to maximum and hoping it wouldn't melt in his hand before it broke through, he opened fire on the door. When the weapon became to hot to hold, he tossed it from hand to hand. As he did so the smoke had time to clear, and he saw with some surprise that the door had been blown away."

Well, too bad for the Star Wars tech inflationists that this was so heavily contradicted by the movie and now apparently Rebels as it provides not only a very powerful instance of a pistol blasting through a metal door, but also a wider range of power settings to boot. Of course it also established that it was pushing the pistol to it's limits seeing as Luke, even while wearing armored gloves, could not hold the thing for very long it was so hot, and he was understandably worried that the pistol might self-destruct on him.
-Mike

[2046]

Thanks for that info, Robert. But I would have preferred Pheonix to give the proper citation from the novelization. And yes, if your description is accurate, it does contradict the final movie version far to much to be considered really useful here other than maybe Lucas, and more likely Alan Dean Foster thought that might be the way to do it.

The idea was from Lucas and was in the fourth draft version dated January '76, with the novel embellishing. There is also a March '76, an April '76, and a February '77 script, and then the SE modified one, so don't take this as gospel ... just a late version:

"INT. DEATH STAR – CELL ROW

Luke stops in front of one of the cells and blasts the door away with his laser pistol. When the smoke clears, Luke sees the dazzling young princess-senator. She had been sleeping and is now looking at him with an uncomprehending look on her face. Luke is stunned by her incredible beauty and stands staring at her with his mouth hanging open."

For the film, this was all different (couldn't even see mouth). But the way I like to play it, this is a possible variation if it is in the final version. Unfortunately, it would just mean the cell door is awfully crappy inasmuch as its capacity to deal with thermal stress.

Also:

"HAN
Get behind me! Get behind me!

A series of explosions knock a hole in the elevator door through which several Imperial troops begin to emerge."

http://starwarz.com/starkiller/star-war ... rth-draft/

[Pheonix]

True, the elevator cabs aren't small, although I don't see any reason to assume that the different cabs are different sizes. I counted five stormtroopers in the far right cab, so considering the size of the middle cab, that still ought to be fairly cramped, especially when standing in the same room as an explosive (or series of explosives) which are about to blast through a thick, metal door. A stormtrooper was out and blasting very shortly after the door got blasted. In Rebels, there is some precedent for stormtrooper armour being effective vs. explosives, like a modern bomb proof suit. But then in Rebels, there's also precedent for unarmoured farmers being resistant to explosions. It would also be a shaped charge, which would help (how much I don't know, this being such a meaty door).

The bit from the novel (although non canon) would suggest to me that the setting being used wasn't "maximum power" proper, but something beyond that. Overcharging the pistol somehow. Even if such a thing was possible, I doubt it would be widely used or encouraged (especially in a professional army), even less so when troopers can carry specialized munitions for blasting down doors, without the need for draining so much of their blasters ammunition, or otherwise risk damaging their gun (or themselves?).

If it existed, then this would make sense, as the usual demonstrations of what I assume to be maximum firepower (or at least a setting higher than kill) fall short of filling the role of bulkhead demolition; these demonstrations don't lead to blasters getting so hot that they become very difficult to handle, either. Han's pistol for example, blasted craters ~0.2 meters across into the adobe like walls on Tatoonine. He fired several shots quickly. A blaster pistol in the Clone Wars blasted out even bigger craters into walls, and the clone trooper carbines proved pretty capable also, and again firing multiple shots in the former case. A stormtrooper also fired several post-kill-setting and fairly potent wall cratering shots at Bespin. Fairly potent, but just not THAT powerful or as powerful as I have though and said in the past.

[2046]

Did some more Google digging since I have like every script version in text format, but I'm in the middle of a RAID redux so everything is a little scattered.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns ... -1.3104206

They actually have a photo of the very page in question!

So the March 1976 "shooting script" has the blastered cell door, and the SE script, based on an earlier version (yeah, that sucks) also has the blastered door.

http://web.archive.org/web/201201110500 ... script.txt

(Great site, by the way ... I need to give it the Obsidian Order treatment.)

So it's solidly in the script that the cell doors were of questionable construction compared to, say, the door that Luke used to seal off the stormtroopers from the chasm he and Leia roped across. As said, I presume they used something mechanically strong but thermally brittle, so to speak.

While it is a contradiction with the film's button push (and makes little sense besides, tactically speaking, unless you're sure your rescue target isn't gonna get hit from any overpenetration-style problems), I'm certainly loathe to pull a Brian Young and start whining that this part should be disregarded.

But in any case, certainly for the films and TCW, the highest canon, blowing a door takes explosives.

[Pheonix]

I did try to reply the other day. I'm nigh on certain I submitted it. I guess I must have hit cancel by accident, lol. Anyway, I wanted to say that I agree, that blowing away metal doors in such a fashion is beyond what even the higher showings can demonstrate. And as said when doors are blown apart elsewhere and we get to see how it is done, it is done with an explosive charge, or high energy cutters (like blow torches).

I counted five stormtroopers in the far right cab, so if it's the same size of the middle cab, this would be a snug (but not silly) fit for the stormtroopers. The front most troopers would be very very close to the door, which gets blasted. A shaped charge would probably help, but blasting apart such a beefy door is quite energetic, I would imagine (it's wasn't as if it was particularly thin, either, probably weighed hundreds of kilos).

I did notice that Han shot the left side of the trash compactor door, where I couldn't make out any panel or controls to get blasted. The other side of the door had a couple of lights, possibly indicating where the controls are. I recall discussing this scene with Mike a while ago; he noted that Han blasted at the side of the door, as if he wasn't just trying to blast the door apart, but rather blast out the panel to cause it to open. I think this is the only time I can recall somebody actually trying to shoot down a metal door, without using an explosive or [obviously] firing at the panels or whatever; but it doesn't prove anything. Perhaps he just shot at the wrong side (or there's a little button I missed).

If the bit from the novel about Luke blasting down a metal door was taken as an accurate representation, then it would most likely represent a firepower that is beyond the weapons normal "maximum setting", as very high powered shots (when compared to normal kill shots) do not cause blasters to become superhot or difficult to handle very quickly, or even limit the user to only a single shot (although it may still just be a handful of shots, probably). Some kind of "overcharged blast". I doubt this would tactic would be used in place of explosive charges when explosives are available, because draining your blaster of lots of energy, and risking doing the gun (and yourself?) damage in the process just to shoot down the door doesn't seem very wise when you have the proper tools for the job. As 2046 mentioned in regards to the cell block, blowing away a door like that (a solid, metal one like in the film) would surely be bad for whoever was in that cell, lol. Connor Mcloud has brought this up before too.

So anyway, I'm in general agreement. I do think that the notion is noteworthy, but not really supported. It's something I'm going to retract, at the site and on YouTube.

[Pheonix]

So after becoming convinced I hit cancel on my first messaged, I reposted everything I had to say, again, in a slightly different way. The shame, and the embarrassment, oh my!

[Trinoya]

So after becoming convinced I hit cancel on my first messaged, I reposted everything I had to say, again, in a slightly different way. The shame, and the embarrassment, oh my!

My apologies, the problem was on our end I believe. Hopefully it should be resolved now.